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+--- Thread: What turbo 606 500hp+ (/showthread.php?tid=4360)
What turbo 606 500hp+ - hansebanger77 - 02-18-2013
Hy. I have hx 40 and the airmass is on Limit.
Who Have expiriance with bigger turbos? It would be nice I have the same spool as before like the hx40 with 17cm housing? (I dyno 455 hp and 800nm boost go over 3 bar) not efficient over 2.6bar ist too hot air and out of compressor map.
Thx
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - EDH_Performance - 02-18-2013
(02-18-2013, 02:42 AM)hansebanger77 Hy. I have hx 40 and the airmass is on Limit.
Who Have expiriance with bigger turbos? It would be nice I have the same spool as before like the hx40 with 17cm housing? (I dyno 455 hp and 800nm boost go over 3 bar) not efficient over 2.6bar ist too hot air and out of compressor map.
Thx
hx52 with 16cm house will support the air!! BUT you wil have more lag....It is very tricky to find a turbo that can handle massive airamount and still spool early
Go sequential or go big
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - hansebanger77 - 02-18-2013
Thx daniel. Yes that's verry tricky. There are so many variation but no smaller exhaust side. Now I have 17cm do you think lots of more lag with 16cm housin because bigger turbine? And will it surging thx
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - EDH_Performance - 02-18-2013
(02-18-2013, 07:31 AM)hansebanger77 Thx daniel. Yes that's verry tricky. There are so many variation but no smaller exhaust side. Now I have 17cm do you think lots of more lag with 16cm housin because bigger turbine? And will it surging thx
I dont think it wil surge! Have no ide how many rpm later it will be before it makes full boost
But you can make a quickspoolvalve and still have the twinscroll effect on higher rpms if it to slow for you
Maybe a newer garrett gtx turbo will spool faster, but they are expensive and i don`t have any experience with them...
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - majesty78 - 02-19-2013
Measure your currently occuring EMP first to validate if turbine and turbine housing is still big enough. If you keep your 17cm exhaust side and add a bigger compressor, it will slow down turbo rpm and therefore create even more EMP due to lower exhaust gas flow rate through turbine.
When a bigger turbo spools clearly later, surge will not be a problem.
GTX ballbearing would not be my choice for boost over 3bar....
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - Bangaway - 02-19-2013
http://www.blacksmokeracing.com/about/the-diesel-drifter-2012-setup
These guys have it figured out. You might ask them. Then share here.
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - mantahead - 02-19-2013
(02-19-2013, 03:14 PM)Bangaway http://www.blacksmokeracing.com/about/the-diesel-drifter-2012-setupdoubt if you will get much information from these guys only basic.
These guys have it figured out. You might ask them. Then share here.
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - EDH_Performance - 02-19-2013
Its proberly a hx52 with some billetwheel...If you have room for it and are an badass go for a hx40 and hx60! That will be my setup for 2013
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - MFSuper90 - 02-19-2013
Holset hx52's have a billet compressor wheel fromt the factory.
Horsepower
Check out the link above
If you have a large pocketbook, the EFR series look to be VERY promising.
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - EDH_Performance - 02-20-2013
You can try mine hx60 with a custom exhausthousing^^
![[Image: 20130221_014137_zps348cf631.jpg]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y66/volvoturbopower/20130221_014137_zps348cf631.jpg)
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - maKe- - 02-24-2013
How about Precision 6766 billet? It's +7mm compressor and +1mm turbine compared to HX40.
Easy 800whp turbo on gas motor (over 90lbs/min from 67mm comp!). Can get it either plain journal bearing or ball bearing chra. I could imagine it to support 550-600whp on OM606 with 1.0 or 1.15 a/r housing if everything is done correctly.
Import guys run those up to 3.5bar so efficiency shouldn't be a problem...
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - hansebanger77 - 02-25-2013
(02-20-2013, 09:15 PM)EDH_Performance You can try mine hx60 with a custom exhausthousing^^
Looking awesome !
(02-24-2013, 09:42 PM)maKe- How about Precision 6766 billet? It's +7mm compressor and +1mm turbine compared to HX40.
Easy 800whp turbo on gas motor (over 90lbs/min from 67mm comp!). Can get it either plain journal bearing or ball bearing chra. I could imagine it to support 550-600whp on OM606 with 1.0 or 1.15 a/r housing if everything is done correctly.
Import guys run those up to 3.5bar so efficiency shouldn't be a problem...
That would be nice! But I don't know about the housing I have 17cm t4 housing. What's that about in a/r ? Also I have no wastage external. So I must figure out how to build that to my manifold. Or ist ther a t4 with internal WG.?
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - maKe- - 02-25-2013
(02-25-2013, 11:50 AM)hansebanger77 That would be nice! But I don't know about the housing I have 17cm t4 housing. What's that about in a/r ? Also I have no wastage external. So I must figure out how to build that to my manifold. Or ist ther a t4 with internal WG.?
Holset T4 twin scroll #17 is right about... 0.90-1.00 a/r give or take.
Precisions are externally gated housings, T3 and T4 single scroll and T4 twin-scroll. Can also choose different comp housings including anti-surge to suit for different applications.
You should always use external gate on a turbo that size / power goals for accurate boost control. Maybe not so critical issue on diesels, but wastegate(s) play a good role on spool, boost control and backpressure.
With smaller exhaust housings you generally want one large or two gates (one for each scroll) to get past enough exhaust gas to maintain desired boost without creeping and huge EGT's / backpressure to compensate the small housing. Bigger housings can manage with single or two smaller gates. Dumping the wastegates to atmosphere lower backpressure a bit, and sound f*n mean @ full boost.
When I'll start my 606 swap into W210 I'm most likely going with a Precision turbo as I equally want over 500whp from single turbo setup and with decent spool. HX40 super is only good for approx 450-490whp.
Holsets are famous for being reliable and can withstand high boost levels, but in the end they are kinda old school tech. They can squeeze alot from they're compressors, but the turbine wont flow and shafts weight a ton on them. Guess thats why we use alot hybrid Holsets here.
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - hansebanger77 - 02-26-2013
I have KKD twin scroll t4 manifold what WG should I use if I go for that PT6766 ?
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - maKe- - 02-26-2013
Tough question. Twin 38mm's or single 46-60mm should do the job nicely. Diesel gas is more dense than gasoline and requires a bit more flowing exhaust side and gate setup...
50mm gate shouldn't be too small! Those china gates from KKD seems to have a good reputation as working ones, if you don't wanna spend 3-4 times more for brand gate.
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - Bangaway - 03-07-2013
Would it be possible to use two HX40s? Use one manifold and turbo for three cylinders or something like that. Essentially a twin turbo setup.
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - pmj4147 - 03-08-2013
What about compound turbos??
Crazy spool and huge air volume in one system.
compound system is a type of a sequential turbo. but the turbos r in same line
exhaust flow : ex.manifold -> small -> big -> downpipe
intake flow : filter -> big -> small -> intercooler -> int.manifold
i think small-20G+40mm wastegate, big-Precision 7675 would be nice.
like this
http://www.tuningstory.com/bbs/zboard.php?id=workroom&page=1&sn1=&divpage=1&sn=off&ss=on&sc=on&keyword=투인&select_arrange=headnum&desc=asc&no=555
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - jeemu - 03-11-2013
Why use too big turbo
Think MPR61-Magnum do that 500hp It made 606 with 120cc Myna with N/A cams 460hp at 2.2bar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myNfCjopy6Y&list=UUhI-QWhauaTzXRexnf-rzKA&index=2
I dyno my own 605 550hp at crank 65mm compressor and it wasent on the limit.
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - Turbo - 05-21-2013
you wrote
GTX ballbearing would not be my choice for boost over 3bar....
[/quote]
can you please develop that
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - hansebanger77 - 06-26-2013
(03-11-2013, 03:28 PM)jeemu Why use too big turbo
Think MPR61-Magnum do that 500hp It made 606 with 120cc Myna with N/A cams 460hp at 2.2bar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myNfCjopy6Y&list=UUhI-QWhauaTzXRexnf-rzKA&index=2
I dyno my own 605 550hp at crank 65mm compressor and it wasent on the limit.
Why du you use NA cams jeemu?
Is there some Problem i go over 67 mm Compressor ?
I search long time and found lots of stuff what could work on my engine.
Pt 6766 is 1330usd is CEA like billet ?
Turbonetics has also lots of variations. About 800usd modularturbo.con
Magnum performance (master power?) also nice stuff and good price
mpturbos.com
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - maxypriest - 06-26-2013
"Why du you use NA cams jeemu?"
I'm interested in this too as i have a pair in my workshop.....!
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - majesty78 - 06-26-2013
NA cams normally give a little more valve overlap and a bit more aggresive valve timing...
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - Turbo - 06-26-2013
Na cams let you get more air in the motor as long as you have lower exhaust pressure than boost, witch was the case with Jemmus engine
If you want high power go for high volumetric efficency, high boost do not mean necessary that you get a lot of air in the engine
you can quite easy simulate the turbo on your engine in borg warners match bot, and by there you can you some parameters big influence what you can get out of the engine
(06-26-2013, 11:25 AM)maxypriest "Why du you use NA cams jeemu?"
I'm interested in this too as i have a pair in my workshop.....!
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - maxypriest - 06-27-2013
(06-26-2013, 04:43 PM)Turbo Na cams let you get more air in the motor as long as you have lower exhaust pressure than boost, witch was the case with Jemmus engine
If you want high power go for high volumetric efficency, high boost do not mean necessary that you get a lot of air in the engine
you can quite easy simulate the turbo on your engine in borg warners match bot, and by there you can you some parameters big influence what you can get out of the engine
(06-26-2013, 11:25 AM)maxypriest "Why du you use NA cams jeemu?"
I'm interested in this too as i have a pair in my workshop.....!
Ok – I’m not entirely sure if my proposed set up will meet this criteria, but it’s got to be fairly good – KKD om606 manifold, SuperHX40, hybrid 606 turbo plenum (restrictive plenum inlet cut out and re-welded). Should I put the NA cams in?
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - mantahead - 06-27-2013
hi,
near sure its only the intake cams that are different, exhaust are the same.
think i will dyno standard cams, then change to na cams and compare results.
won't be for a while though, it would be nice to compare the graphs so everyone can see the difference they make.
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - Turbo - 06-27-2013
Sorry but if you want a sincere answer, no, this is way more complicated to be able to do better performance predicting
Are you looking for top power or drivable?
(06-27-2013, 10:07 AM)maxypriest(06-26-2013, 04:43 PM)Turbo Na cams let you get more air in the motor as long as you have lower exhaust pressure than boost, witch was the case with Jemmus engine
If you want high power go for high volumetric efficency, high boost do not mean necessary that you get a lot of air in the engine
you can quite easy simulate the turbo on your engine in borg warners match bot, and by there you can you some parameters big influence what you can get out of the engine
(06-26-2013, 11:25 AM)maxypriest "Why du you use NA cams jeemu?"
I'm interested in this too as i have a pair in my workshop.....!
Ok – I’m not entirely sure if my proposed set up will meet this criteria, but it’s got to be fairly good – KKD om606 manifold, SuperHX40, hybrid 606 turbo plenum (restrictive plenum inlet cut out and re-welded). Should I put the NA cams in?
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - maxypriest - 06-27-2013
Drivable power.
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - Turbo - 06-29-2013
how much do you want to get out of the engine and how fare below do you want boost starting to build up?
I am not that much fan of the holset, so I am working on a different approach
(06-27-2013, 04:28 PM)maxypriest Drivable power.
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - HaavardPYA - 06-29-2013
I am running an hy35 now, and that one is too small for almost any power(300+). So i am going for the PT6766 with the biggest t3 housing to start with. Just because my manifold is t3 atm. If that is too small i will make new manifold with t4 and just buy new turbinehousing. Turbinehousings are cheap to buy for the PT turbos in sweden at PPF.
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - hansebanger77 - 06-30-2013
(06-29-2013, 06:27 PM)HaavardPYA I am running an hy35 now, and that one is too small for almost any power(300+). So i am going for the PT6766 with the biggest t3 housing to start with. Just because my manifold is t3 atm. If that is too small i will make new manifold with t4 and just buy new turbinehousing. Turbinehousings are cheap to buy for the PT turbos in sweden at PPF.
Where u buy the pt6766 ? Is it billet? What ar. you going?
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - HaavardPYA - 06-30-2013
http://server.pure-pf.com/webshop2/index.php?id_product=852&controller=product&id_lang=1
Here is an link Johan. The page is in swedish but they are wery helpful if u send them a mail. Its a 67mm billet compwheel yes. You can get both t3, t4 an v-band flange on the turbinehousing. From what i have seen of PPF's cars and many of my friends cars, precision turbos are wery quick spooling and good turbos. They are also wery compact in outer size compared to the inside size.
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - maxypriest - 06-30-2013
(06-29-2013, 02:59 PM)Turbo how much do you want to get out of the engine and how fare below do you want boost starting to build up?
I am not that much fan of the holset, so I am working on a different approach
(06-27-2013, 04:28 PM)maxypriest Drivable power.
About 500bhp is the target, good boost from 2500, 3000 rpm onwords - Hansebanger77 vids show the kind of drivability I'm after. I'm going to try to get the gas flow as best as I can, just started modifying the 606 intake plenum to get it to flow better with a proper intake design. Any comments?
Cheers,
max
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - hansebanger77 - 06-30-2013
Intakte is also my next step. It should flow better. I'm not sure if I can weld the NA intake to have some space in the middle for pump adjust or cut and weld the turbo intake.
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - HaavardPYA - 06-30-2013
Im thinking of welding an "cossie style" intake when i change turbo. Think that will flow better than standard. With trumpets..
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - Bangaway - 06-30-2013
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - maxypriest - 07-01-2013
Great picture - That is a very polished intake!
My plan it to have the air enter from below the plenum as the original design does, but I’m going to open out the underside and improve the ait tract to each of the cylinders – 3”inlet.
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - HaavardPYA - 07-01-2013
Wery beutiful indeed! But i dont got room for pressurepipe in front of the radiator becase of the AC condenser.
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - yankneck696 - 07-01-2013
What about a HE351VE (VNY) for the small turbo? It could provide excellent low end drivability & be fed with as large of a turbo as you want due to a large exhaust housing for less backpressure?
Ed
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - mantahead - 07-02-2013
(06-30-2013, 09:23 PM)Bangaway I think this guy is on here but don't know for sure. Nice intake!
that is tidy,
any build thread?
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - Turbo - 07-02-2013
a serie turbo system would have some advantages in compare to VNT/VGT
take for example BMW 535D turbos, the HP unit a KP39 1873 and the LP K26 2871
inducer size HP I guess is about 29,5mm and for the LP about 50mm
This turbo orginal produce 286HP and can be tune to about 350, well this is now a direct injected diesel, that engine is 3l and the HP turbo give almost instantaneous full boost att 1000rpm, at 1500rpm the by pass valve starts to open and at 2500 LP unit takes complete over. ( well I was about to put in a picture but have still not find that out how to do that)
original HP unit give by it self about 0,7 bars of boost and full boost is about 1,8 bars if I am not remember wrong
in this set up the 50*50/29,5*29,5 give a ratio about 2,89 roughly you can say that the LP unit is about 2,9 times bigger in inducer size then the HP. I would say the principal is the same for the unit we are looking for 500HP, hard part is to find good bypass valves and control it well, the HP unit can brake if it is aloud to run to fare up with high boost.
the LP unit needs to be able to make better pressure ration then in this case.
I am not that found of VNT turbos, but right used they can do a lot, since they are aloud in normal operation to have higher back pressure the boost pressure because of the EGR circulation, with another word it is not optimized for low back pressure, if it is not of DAVNT typ the construction to hold the VNT mechanism reduce the flow significantly. VNT mechanism is also sensitive to soot by clogging, and if it is block, the boost can go hey wild up, but it can also act like a silencer, and without muffler it can scare the living daylight out of any one when VNT mechanism is controlled only of the boost pressure only... VGT is ideal not as good as VNT when we talk turbine efficiency, but have other advantages
there are some ball bearing VNT out there like GTB2260vklr/GTB2060VKLR for HP if you want really want early and fast spool but a GTB3576klnrv with changed compressor wheel from GTX3076R would properly take you most of the way to 500HP (2 bars of boost and about 60lbs/min), if consider the volumetric efficiency of the engine when you make the intake plenum.
VNT are fare more easy to melt down than normal turbine house
then there is fare more advanced way to get turbo work better...
time for bed now
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - HaavardPYA - 07-03-2013
Does anyone have an formula for calkulating the needed air at an certain rpm and therefor calculate what turbo is needed for hp turbo and for lp turbo? As i understand, a compound setup the turbos needs to fit each other to make it work well? Shoot me if im wrong here.
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - Turbo - 07-04-2013
volumetric flow of the engine multiply all below
displacement in kubik meter
sped of engine in r/s
0,5 since it is a 4 stoke engine
volumetric efficiency depending on many things roughly about 80-130 depending on design
boost level in absolute pressure
This give volumetric flow
multiply by density of the air for example use general gas law PV=nRT
at normal pressure and temperature gives about 1,2kg/kubik meter
or look at
http://www.turbodriven.com/performanceturbos/matchbot/index.html#version=1.2&displacement=3&CID=183.06&altitude=100&baro=14.665&aat=75&turboconfig=1&compressor=105s72&pt1_rpm=4150&pt1_ve=85&pt1_boost=11&pt1_ie=99&pt1_filres=0.08&pt1_ipd=0.2&pt1_mbp=0.5&pt1_ce=66&pt1_te=75&pt1_egt=1380&pt1_ter=1.43&pt1_pw=0.81&pt1_bsfc=0.34&pt1_afr=18&pt1_wts=300&pt1_wd=83&pt1_wd2=74&pt1_wrsin=69033&pt2_rpm=4200&pt2_ve=95&pt2_boost=20&pt2_ie=95&pt2_filres=0.1&pt2_ipd=0.2&pt2_mbp=1&pt2_ce=70&pt2_te=73&pt2_egt=1380&pt2_ter=1.76&pt2_pw=0.47&pt2_bsfc=0.42&pt2_afr=18&pt2_wts=320&pt2_wd=83&pt2_wd2=74&pt2_wrsin=73635&pt3_rpm=4500&pt3_ve=95&pt3_boost=50&pt3_ie=95&pt3_filres=0.12&pt3_ipd=0.3&pt3_mbp=1.3&pt3_ce=72&pt3_te=72&pt3_egt=1380&pt3_ter=3.09&pt3_pw=0.66&pt3_bsfc=0.42&pt3_afr=18&pt3_wts=340&pt3_wd=83&pt3_wd2=74&pt3_wrsin=78238&pt4_rpm=5000&pt4_ve=95&pt4_boost=50&pt4_ie=95&pt4_filres=0.15&pt4_ipd=0.4&pt4_mbp=1.5&pt4_ce=73&pt4_te=71&pt4_egt=1380&pt4_ter=3.27&pt4_pw=4.5&pt4_bsfc=0.42&pt4_afr=18&pt4_wts=368&pt4_wd=83&pt4_wd2=74&pt4_wrsin=84681&pt5_rpm=6000&pt5_ve=95&pt5_boost=50&pt5_ie=95&pt5_filres=0.18&pt5_ipd=0.5&pt5_mbp=1.8&pt5_ce=72&pt5_te=70&pt5_egt=1380&pt5_ter=3.66&pt5_pw=8.86&pt5_bsfc=0.42&pt5_afr=18&pt5_wts=400&pt5_wd=83&pt5_wd2=74&pt5_wrsin=92044&pt6_rpm=6500&pt6_ve=95&pt6_boost=50&pt6_ie=95&pt6_filres=0.2&pt6_ipd=0.6&pt6_mbp=2&pt6_ce=68&pt6_te=70&pt6_egt=1380&pt6_ter=3.95&pt6_pw=NaN&pt6_bsfc=0.425&pt6_afr=18&pt6_wts=400&pt6_wd=83&pt6_wd2=74&pt6_wrsin=92044&
this is just to be used as an example since I was trying to evaluate some things but it is a pretty simple tool to use, this is one construction I am evaluating some data would properly not be relevant for your engine but be aware what you put in, can be used for most turbos if you just have some data on them
(07-03-2013, 04:27 PM)HaavardPYA Does anyone have an formula for calkulating the needed air at an certain rpm and therefor calculate what turbo is needed for hp turbo and for lp turbo? As i understand, a compound setup the turbos needs to fit each other to make it work well? Shoot me if im wrong here.
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - DiseaselWeasel - 07-04-2013
I like the "Audi style" dual plenum design,as used by BSR: http://www.blacksmokeracing.com/wp-content/uploads/dynoday-1-2.jpg http://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/960087_535230929867013_1886956960_n.jpg
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - Turbo - 07-04-2013
Far from optimum and drive ability is not good in my preference
many can look very good but do little good in preference to keep up the volumetric efficiency
(07-04-2013, 03:29 AM)DiseaselWeasel I like the "Audi style" dual plenum design,as used by BSR: http://www.blacksmokeracing.com/wp-content/uploads/dynoday-1-2.jpg http://fbcdn-sphotos-h-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-prn2/960087_535230929867013_1886956960_n.jpg
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - HaavardPYA - 07-04-2013
Thanks for reply "Turbo"!
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - mantahead - 07-04-2013
hi,
i think i have might have found a used holset hx52w to use along with the eaton m112.
it is internal wastegate and 16cm housing.
any thoughts for 500bhp on om606 with max spool up?
maybe i would be better welding up the wastegate and go external, or else wait and see if i can get a hx52 with no wastegate?
they don't seem to be that common.
RE: What turbo 606 500hp+ - Turbo - 07-07-2013
If you want to make a decent analysis about "spool" you need to know compressor map and turbine map or at least make a qualified guess since the turbine map is very hard to get hold on. What the The turbine house has ability to swallow is important to know as well. when all this is know you can make a guess at steady state when the assembly starts to make boost. How quickly the unit will accelerate is depending on the the inertia and losses in the Bearings, and match bot do not consider that as far as I know, it just balance the energy equation steady state.
In the first place if you do not give the right rand terms it is never going to be right and even that is not that simple if you look into it, sorry not be be able to help you more
I do not like Holset turbos becasue in my opinion they is so big physically and heavy have a lot of rotor inertia in compare what they do and the technical data I have seen have not caught my interest so I do not know specific parameters on models.
This is my personal opinion and shall not in any way be taken as an insult on those that do use them.
(07-04-2013, 06:07 PM)mantahead hi,
i think i have might have found a used holset hx52w to use along with the eaton m112.
it is internal wastegate and 16cm housing.
any thoughts for 500bhp on om606 with max spool up?
maybe i would be better welding up the wastegate and go external, or else wait and see if i can get a hx52 with no wastegate?
they don't seem to be that common.