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+--- Thread: a little help putting a old engine back in service (/showthread.php?tid=4385)
a little help putting a old engine back in service - xjdiesel - 03-01-2013
Good evening all, about 8 years ago I bought twins matching in every way (near as I can tell consecutive VIN #'s ) 1976 300D's Normaly aspirated 115 chassis. They had been sitting in a shed for 16 years, and showed in the 20's k miles on the odometer. The South Texas salt being what it is, the bodies were a bit rusty. But they both started and loaded on the trailer. Only serious problem at the beginning was one had a bad oil cooler. Well I drove one of the cars for a few months, and pretty quick all the rubber parts started to fail all at once. CV joint boots, vac, and fuel lines, etc etc.
So I sold one for just over scrap value, and parted out the other, and kept the engine for a conversion. The engine then sat for another 5 years. Well the conversion is well under way, the engine is in and runnig, but it has a few loud clatters ( they seem to smooth out above idle) we can get to the clatters later. Now I have a few problems. Thanks for making it through the preamble.
When I stripped the car, I did not save enough bits.
So now I need some thing to act as a shutdown actuator/solenoid, preferably electric. AS I don't have the original benz ignition switch. I think this fuel shut off is a bit different than the turbo motor.
any help on how to get a fuel shut off would be appreciated.
Also need to make a alternator plug. The 2 big lugs go to the battery, and the little lug is for What??? Which wire is the field, and which is the output?
I have a turbo motor sitting on a stand as well, and it has the vacuum shut off still on the IP. but I don't think this will work for the NA motor
thanks
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - willbhere4u - 03-01-2013
If you apply vacuum to the shut off valve on the back of the injection pump it will shut off!
You will need a vacuum valve that stays closed with the key in the on position/power so no vacuum is applied while engine running then when the key is turned off powering down the vacuum valve. It must let vacuum through then the engine will shut off!
As for injector noise at idle try a valve adjustment first and then maybe new injector nozzles / injector rebuild!
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - George3soccer - 03-01-2013
Read here, I made a shut off for my 603.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/thread-1785.html
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - xjdiesel - 03-01-2013
thanks for the reply's but I don't have anything on the engine side (IP) to work with. All I have is one linkage from the accelerator pedal to the IP, and that is it. I will try and post a pic.
I need something that can attach to the accelerator arm on the IP, or I need a extra linkage that will pull the accel linkage past the idle position to shutoff
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - xjdiesel - 03-02-2013
What do you know. I found from looking at peach parts, that I do have a vacuum shut off actuator. it is built into the back of the IP, and it works. So now all I need is a new electric vacuum switch. I guess like the one above. I think I will go with the egr solenoid.
Now I need a alternator connector pigtail. I made one out of standard spade lugs and it melted. Does any one know where to get one of these 3 connector alternator plugs. My local pick and pull has NO diesel MB, and only one gasser, and someone already got the connector and the alternator from that one
I have a bit of conflicting info. on a peachparts post about shutoff actuator changes, the poster said to manually fill the IP with oil after you open the IP. My engine sat vertically with the bell housing side facing straight up in the air for a long time while I fit the jeep transmission. I had read on this sight that the IP gets its oil from the main engine oil supply. So I did not fill the IP with oil after the install. I did crank the engine quite a bit before I attempted to start it. hoping that would pre oil everything that needed pre oiling. I am concerned now about this clatter. the engine seems to be getting louder . I am going to check the valve adjustment tonight. It is a bit hard to tell about the noise as the exhaust system is still open just in front of the Catylitic converter. I need to weld in a flex coupling
thanks again for your help
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - larsalan - 03-02-2013
Shouldnt be a cat, just a resonator. Like a primary muffler before the other.
I've never pre oiled the IP. Just make sure that all the lines are hooked up and I'm sure oil gets in there pretty quick. If that was the worst that I've done to one of these bosch pumps
Can you make us a video of the motor running?
I guess you pretty well need to figure out that alternator. I just sold one like 2 weeks ago. I'm sure somebody must have a spare they can sell to you. Maybe post over in the wtb/wts section.
I had heard the 80s gasser alternators were the same but that's just hearsay.
Maybe that clattering can be cleared with some fresher/cleaner injectors. Resident expert on injector service is Greazzer.
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - xjdiesel - 03-02-2013
thanks to all for your help. Don't forget the MB is now in a gasser jeep body, so that is why there is a cat. I just got done adjusting the valves, All exhausts were too tight, and all but one intake was too loose. NO CHANGE on the noise If anything, now the noise is getting worse. Something is not rite. The engine was running good when It was pulled, some 5-7 years ago. PLUS when it first started, it sounded good and normal. Now I know i am not supposed to , but I did give it the tiniest tiniest whif of starting fluid on the first start, as the glow plugs were not hooked up. So with just that hint of ether, it started up immediatly detonated once or twice, and then it was running perfect for 30 seconds, I shut it off to check for leaks. Did the same thing with the ether 2 minutes later, and it started immediatly detonated hard twice, and then was pretty noisy at idle, but sounded good above idle. So just 2 starts with the smallest amount of ether. then no more ether. I hooked up the glow plugs, and have been using them. Several starts later, now it is very noisy at idle, and only a bit quieter at speed. The thermostat was stuck closed, so I have not been running it for more than a minute or 2 at the most without shutting it down.
The odometer on this car was in the high 20's or low 30's when I got it. not sure if that is 120 or not. but the state inspection sticker was i think 16 years out of date. So I am inclined to think maybe This may be only a 30000 mile motor. The insides of the valve train look new, timing chain nice and tight. I will try and post a pic . I will try and get a video tomorrow.
I will need some help with the video. The first one I posted from my phone, took up a huge amount of data for a 29 second video, so I am not doing that correctly.
Ok back on point. There is a small amount too much oil in the engine. I have not drained yet. I put in a aftermarket direct reading oil pressure guage before the first start, and It pegs out high just after start. I think the guage may be bad from new. I did bleed the air out of the oil pressure sense hose, so I know I have oil pressure. The jeep had been sitting for a long time as well, and it was a non runner when I bought it. I drained out the bad fuel using the electric pump in the tank. put 5 gallons of fresh diesel in the tank and ran the E pump until I got clear clean fuel out of the fuel line. The fuel filter is original and has not been changed in over 20 years. I did crack injector lines while the engine was idleing. There does not seem to be a miss. the engine slows down when I loosen each injector line, and picks back up when I re-tighten the line. So I think all cyls are hitting. I have not done a compression check, but it seems good. There is no smoke at all when the engine is running at idle or above idle.
When I am running the engine, I am not using the electric fuel pump, so the MB is pulling its own fuel from the tank. I have not checked the jeep fuel filters or the MB fuel filters. I am not sure if there is another filter in the tank. but there is a external canister filter.
So what can cause this extreme noise. In my searches I have seen people talk about collapsed fuel lines, bad injectors, bad timing, lots of different reasons.
does anyone have any thoughts??
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - xjdiesel - 03-02-2013
I just checked the submersible fuel pump, and it has seized up. so I think that there was a fuel starvation problem. I bypassed the subersible pump. and now i have fair fuel flow. I am still using the inline filter. anyway long story short, The engine is still noisy, maybe not as bad above idle. but still noisy as hell on idle. Can anyone help teach me to post a pic or a video?
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - larsalan - 03-02-2013
I would say post it to youtube and then send a link here. It is always better to see/hear the problem than to just hear you describe it
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - willbhere4u - 03-02-2013
I would delete the cat or gut it! Diesel's don't like back pressure these cars had a fairly large free flowing exhaust from stock
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - xjdiesel - 03-03-2013
look I made a picture. I am going to have to work some more on the reducing the resolution. that pic is about 25 percent of what the camera took. but hey it is better than no pic. I will try and work on a video for tomorrow. I tell ya the thing just does not sound rite
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - Simpler=Better - 03-03-2013
There was no cat on the car ever-that turtle up front was a resonator :p
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - xjdiesel - 03-03-2013
I am working on a video. we had some technical difficulty with the jeep. But the initial video the sound is not very good, it just came out loud. I did put on a remote fuel supply bypassing all but the secondary filter. still real clattery. LOTS of oil pressure though, and I don't have to worrry about that oil being overfilled anymore. The oil cooler bypass connection hose ruptured. The video is too funny ( in a bad way ) to post.
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - xjdiesel - 03-03-2013
here is a video link I hope
http://youtu.be/0-49ivxN1Q0
ok the video link is working. that was not as hard as I thought it would be. The sound is not very good. but you can hear that it is louder and rougher than it should be. Any body have any suggestions . I am going for a new secondary fuel filter tomorrow. And I adjusted the valves last night, Can you put turbo injectors in the NA motor??? just for a test? Where is a good What are the chances that this is a secondary fuel filter problem and not injectors.
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - larsalan - 03-03-2013
Doesnt that motor need some coolant? I have no idea what that sounds like. Just sounds weird.
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - xjdiesel - 03-03-2013
I am not running it for more than a minute at a time just now. maybe not even that long. So I have not got it even close to warmed up yet. I am still pretty early in the install process, and I keep coming up with new problems. Such as a seized up thermostat, So there are plenty of parts on order. Hopefully the radiator will show up in a couple of days. I am not sure if I can get better sound on a video. It is hard to shoot the video and operate the engine at the same time. Maybe I can get some help. I just hope it is not the injectors.
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - larsalan - 03-03-2013
injectors sound like a good piece to repair. Didnt you say the motor has been sitting in a barn for some years?
I think that kind of treatment could result in poor injector performance.
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - xjdiesel - 03-03-2013
So short of replacement, what can I DIY service on the injectors??. I have a ultrasonic cleaner, I am planning on getting a supply of the heat shields. I need the heat shields before I can pull the ones I have. I am hoping I can find someone to pop test them locally. I am going to say I bet the injectors are ok. Hopefully the secondary fuel filter will sort it out
Yes the car and engine spent the better part of the last 22 years sitting
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - larsalan - 03-03-2013
Yea, ultrasonic cleaned and pop tested might do it. Careful with them nozzles they are super delicate. Not even supposed to get oil from your hands on them
I honestly can't get any information from that video. Maybe someone else can. I just mean that injector service is part of regular/preventative maintenance.
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - willbhere4u - 03-03-2013
I put new injector nosily in my injectors myself they are cheap I didn't have a pop tester but a guy I saw on line rebuilt 50 junk yard injectors and pop tested them all and they where all with in 20psi of each other so I haven bother worrying about pop pressure myself! It definitely ran better when I was done! It only takes a little crud to make them ware out make sure you use good fuel filters!
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - xjdiesel - 03-03-2013
I guess I am not so concerned about the matching pop pressure as I want to see the spray pattern myself
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - willbhere4u - 03-04-2013
they should be perfect with new tips!
this guy sells parts and tools for rebuilding any thing Mercedes diesel
http://www.mercedessource.com/node/9537
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - Simpler=Better - 03-04-2013
(03-03-2013, 11:32 PM)xjdiesel I guess I am not so concerned about the matching pop pressure as I want to see the spray pattern myself
If you are on a budget, the pop pressure is more important than the pattern for smoothness. Best $60 I spent was getting my injectors cleaned & balanced by Greazzer, it idled so much smoother, even though the nozzles were "peeing"
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - cho - 03-04-2013
(03-04-2013, 02:34 PM)Simpler=Better If you are on a budget, the pop pressure is more important than the pattern for smoothness.
X2
.
(03-03-2013, 02:41 PM)xjdiesel LOTS of oil pressure though
you run it for a minute or two...so oil pressure HAS to be high
if you have oil pressure problem it will show later,not in first minute or two IMHO.
cheers
(03-02-2013, 02:49 PM)xjdiesel Now I need a alternator connector pigtail. I made one out of standard spade lugs and it melted.
I made mine,those have to be 55A or 70A proved
you probably used "house use" ones,those are 16 or 21A rated.
(check the alt current rating...)
.
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - xjdiesel - 03-04-2013
Thanks Cho, I am looking for some heavy duty spade lugs , or a junk yard pigtail that I can cut off and take home.. I am still going to say plenty of oil pressure. It blew the temp hose connection apart. and it pegs out my direct reading guage as well.
Hello Greazzer, are you out there???? I sent you a PM.
Well everyone, Thanks so far for your help. I put on a fresh seconary fuel filterf today, and cleaned out the secondary fuel filter housing. I don't think that had been opened up in over 22 years.
Long story short, still clattering so loud it makes me not want to run the engine anymore. It does smooth out pretty good above idle. I think it is time to pull the injectors and see what is what. I have some heat shields on order. There is a guy in town that says he will pop test them for free while I watch. I think that is about as far as I want to let him take it though.
I do have a ultra sonic cleaner. but I don't know if I want to mess with this. Any other suggestions on what to do to clear the clatter before I pull the injectors???
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - willbhere4u - 03-04-2013
Fill the filter with Seafoam and run it. it will go directly through the injectors and clean them if there is some gunk!
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - xjdiesel - 03-04-2013
I like the seafoam idea. Is there any thing that may be stronger to use? What do they use at the stealership??? Can I pull the injector lines and fill them with something so it won't go through the IP.
So is there a chance that straight 100% seafoam can cause any further damage. I think I will get some and crank it through, and let it sit overnight.
What is the capacity of the IP and all the lines?
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - willbhere4u - 03-04-2013
It wont hurt the injection pump as mater of fact it may help clean it out! or diesel purge
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - Simpler=Better - 03-04-2013
Don't use seafoam, use lubrimoly diesel purge. It's the same price and made for diesels.
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - xjdiesel - 03-04-2013
I am just going to come out and say it HOLY CRAP the seafoam worked. WILLBEHERE4U You are the man. I have used Seafoam in the past on gassers, and I was a bit sceptical of my results. I just did the Hot soak method described on the Seafoam site. warmed up the engine, filled the secondary filter completely full of seafoam, ran for 2 minutes ( still no smoke ) shut if off for 5 minutes. started it up after the sit, and it clattered for 10 seconds and then cleared rite up. it still has a funny sound, but the clatter is gone. I am going to run for another minute, Then let it sit overnight. tomorrow morning I will do the same procedure. I even paid $3 more for the Seafoam than I should have at the local shop.
I will say it again. SeaFoam worked for me. at least 85% better than it was.
OK now I need to find some heavy duty 3/8 spade lugs for the alternator. Get a EGR solenoid for the shutdown, and set up a glow plug momentary on switch. How many amps do the glow plugs actually pull? my amp meter goes to 8 amps then back to zero. I miss my good american made beckman meter. but after 25 years it finally gave out.
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - larsalan - 03-04-2013
So let's see the after video.
There is your clue that the fuel system and injectors were well knackered. Maybe can have even better results with a more thorough cleaning/balancing.
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - xjdiesel - 03-04-2013
good idea on the after video. I want to give it another seafoam treatment tomorrow morning, and let it sit all day. There is a new noise however. it sounds like maybe the flex plate. To get the jeep AW4 auto tranny to work. I am running a flexplate only, and the original benz flywheel is removed. It seemed not the best way to go to me, but that is the way the adapter works
My original idea for an adapter was to use the jeep trans and torque converter. and the MB flywheel flexplate and starter, but I was never able to get it sorted out on my own. So i bought the plug and play adapter. The instant gratification on the store bought adapter was well worth it, Mr. Koch if you are on the site thanks again. I feel that without the Koch adapter my project would still be on the shop floor
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - cho - 03-05-2013
.
If I understand previous posts correctly you runnin' dry,please put some
distilled water at least (if on budget) you will loose that hollow sound
and you will get some running time...& dont let it boil!
cheers
.
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - Simpler=Better - 03-05-2013
Definitely get some kind of coolant in there even if it's not hooked to a radiator.
The glow plugs pull around 80A total
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - xjdiesel - 03-05-2013
yes it has water in the block, and I periodically hit the water inlet with a fresh water hose. The engine has never been hot to the touch, just a little warm. most of the runs I can still hold the exhaust manifold and the water in the thermostat housing is just warm. If I do rev it up a bit higher, warm water will come out the outlet pipe that faces to the right if looking at it, then I add more to the left side.
Today I need to find some heavy duty 3/8" spade lugs to try and get the alternator hooked up. the regular duty ones melted straight away.
any help there would be great
I am going to try and run the glow plugs on a ford starter solenoind with a momentary on switch, and some 10ga wire for the actual glow plug pigtail
here is a pic of the twins, They were not much to look at after sitting so long in the salt. but for $500 for both I did ok. And they both did start and load on the trailer on their own. You can see the oil stain from the rusted oil cooler on the left. It was a shame that I could not sell them for any money. I even had one licensed and driving pretty well. you just had to sit on a phone book because the seat was so rusted out.
That pic is from 2006
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - xjdiesel - 03-05-2013
Well the new noise was the flex plate. I need to look further, ( yes engine out again) to tell for sure but the flex plate looks pretty shot. All 4 holes for the TC bolts are really enlarged. Maybe I can just re-drill the flex plate for 4 new holes. I was so concentrated on the injector noise, and it was so loud, i could not hear the flex plate going bad. I was going to locktight the TC bolts, when I was all finished tuning and finished. I thought they would make it at least through the testing phase. There is probably not 10 minutes of run time on them total, and I put them in there pretty freaking tight. That is a pretty big downer. 1 step forward two steps back.
I did find a good electric vacuum switch in one of my buckets of goodies
Still need to find some heavy duty 3/8" spade lugs
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - Simpler=Better - 03-06-2013
For the spade lugs call around to refrigeration repair guys. They have to rewire compressors all the time, and should have that stuff on hand. Or an electronics distribution place (for electricians) they will have it or be able to get them easily. If you want to wait, Mouser.com definitely has more than you could ever ask for.
For the flexplate, you can mark a pattern and redrill (probably). A local machine shop / engine rebuilding place will have a mill and can slap that out in no time flat. Local vocational schools should have mills as well.
That's how it goes, fix one thing and then you can spot something else hiding. I fixed the fan on my gas DD, now I can clearly hear it knocking at idle
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - xjdiesel - 05-14-2013
Time for a update, and a few more questions. Well questions first and then the update. after a lot of work on the chassis side. I was almost done. Today after a 10 minute run to check my new radiator hose adapters. I noticed that engine oil is leaking out of all 5 injector bases. I guess from where the injector screws into the pre-chamber. I guess that is how it is put together. if were a marine engine I would call it the injector tube. Question #1 are the pre-chambers water cooled? #2 what seals the pre-chambers into the head? #3 How can oil get between the injector and the pre-chamber. On Peachparts, It looks like they are selling prechamber O-rings?, So that may be it.
From reading some other posts. it seemed that the prechambers seem to self destruct when you remove them. Is that correct?
Next set of questions. How hot should the cyl head be at the water temp fitting for normal operations?? my point and shoot thermometer shows 205F after about 5-7 minutes running. It is 90 F outside today. I have a new 189F thermostat installed. To make the jeep radiator fit, I had to make some adapters for the radiator hoses, and now my upper hose is choked down to about 1" ID because of the heavy walled aluminum pipe I used. I just made a new lower hose adapter out of steel today, much less restrictive. I will do the same thing on the upper hose if I have too.
I am trying for a new video so yall enjoy.
The engine is now muffled, radiatored, fuel filtered, tachometerd, and water tempted. I thought I was all done and headed for the inspection station, and I lost the lower radiator hose at the adapter. Then I noticed the oil leaking from the injectors, and now I decided to do the front brakes, as they were pretty sticky after the long sit.
here is a link to the video. it is pretty bad, the sun is so bright I can not see the display on the camera. sorry about my shadow
http://youtu.be/oO-MYkp8gHI
lets see if the link is hot
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - Simpler=Better - 05-15-2013
Your valve cover gasket is probably leaking. The prechambers screw into the head/ combustion chamber-they don't cross into the oil ever.
There is a cutaway view of the prechamber somewhere on PP. The glow plug screws into the prechamber.
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - xjdiesel - 05-15-2013
thanks. I spray cleaned the injectors and pre-chambers with brake cleaner, and the oil has not been back yet. But I don't have much run time since the cleaning
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - SurfRodder - 05-18-2013
What kind of flex plate are you running? IIRC the XJ had a flywheel / flex plate that were integrated from the factory. At least all of the ones I have seen were. I had to replace one after my trans slipped into reverse (bad lockout) while travelling forward one day about 30mph.... made it a couple of years tho until it start a ed to shift coming off throttle (same elongated holes) and threw a CPS code...was a bitch to get running again. Anyway, that won't be a problem for the 617, but I'm still curious as to what flex plate is in use...
RE: a little help putting a old engine back in service - xjdiesel - 05-18-2013
Hi Surfrodder, the Koch adapter I am using. You remove the MB block to trans adapter, and the MB flex plate, and flywheel. Then install the new Koch block to trans adapter, and a new Koch, MB crank to Jeep flex plate adapter. So the Jeep flex plate is connected direct to the MB crank. Then use the stock jeep trans and starter.
I was always pretty amazed that all the power in a Automatic, goes through just the flex plate. All the flex plates I have seen have been pretty flimsy. Then when you compare a typical flex plate to a typical flywheel. it just seems that the flex plate really carries a lot of load for something so thin. Then on top of that you run all the engines power through 4-6 little bolts.
But many small bolts can do great things. I used to work on DC-3's long ago, and that whole wing is held on by some 326, 1/4" bolts on each side.
So far with the locktight the Flex plate on the jeep is holding up ok, but after my first flex plate blow out, I am not sure I will ever really trust that flex plate.