+- STD (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std)
+-- Forum: Tuning (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Engine (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Thread: 616.916 vs. 616.912 (/showthread.php?tid=4418)
616.916 vs. 616.912 - sassparilla_kid - 03-14-2013
Since the insurance company said they'll fix my w115 that got smashed (extremely surprised about that), if I wanna continue driving it after that its gonna either need some engine work or something because it smokes like a chimney and has some issues.
I'm just wondering if anybody knows what it would take to swap a 616 from a w123 into a w115. I know the manifolds and stuff are different, as well as the oil filter location, not sure if there are any differences in the pan or anything.
Thanks
RE: 606.916 vs. 616.912 - Simpler=Better - 03-14-2013
So...did the smoking start before or after the hit?
Injectors, valves, timing. If that doesn't do it then a good old MMO soak.
It can probably be done, but you're in a tighter engine bay from what I've read
RE: 606.916 vs. 616.912 - sassparilla_kid - 03-14-2013
Not sure when it started smoking, I think before it was hit. Anyway, it just pumps out smoke and probably went through a quart in about 100 or so miles of driving. Thought maybe it might be the vacuum pump or something but I looked and the line going to the intake manifold was clear so it wasn't sucking oil through the pump, so no idea what's causing it. Maybe its the horrendous blowby.
I think it would be easier to just swap in an engine with lower miles vs rebuilding at this point
RE: 606.916 vs. 616.912 - willbhere4u - 03-14-2013
w123 240d engine should be relatively simple you would need to figure out the throttle linkage! But with the newer injection pump you wont need any of the throttle body crap!
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - sassparilla_kid - 03-14-2013
I don't think the linkages will be much of a problem, I'll figure out a way to make the cable work.
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - DeliveryValve - 03-14-2013
If you are going through the trouble, How about a 617 turbo swap. ala JB3 style.
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - sassparilla_kid - 03-14-2013
(03-14-2013, 08:13 PM)DeliveryValve If you are going through the trouble, How about a 617 turbo swap. ala JB3 style.
That sounds like exponentially more trouble lol
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - cho - 03-15-2013
(03-14-2013, 03:46 PM)sassparilla_kid I'm just wondering if anybody knows what it would take to swap a 616 from a w123 into a w115.
Thanks
It can be done but you will have to do some chassis interventions
cutting/welding.. I have not done it but I have asked guys that did.
one of them has adopted OM602. (pic)
as they told me 240D is slow dog so they preffer 300D.
cheers
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - sassparilla_kid - 03-15-2013
I'm thinking, turbo 616 build, that would be pretty awesome. Obviously I would need to find some turbo pistons and connecting rods, and sodium filled valves. Hmmm
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - Simpler=Better - 03-15-2013
(03-15-2013, 12:43 PM)sassparilla_kid I'm thinking, turbo 616 build, that would be pretty awesome. Obviously I would need to find some turbo pistons and connecting rods, and sodium filled valves. Hmmm
Or roll the dice, intercool it and put on a bigger oil cooler.
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - sassparilla_kid - 03-15-2013
If I have the engine out and on a stand though why not rebuild it with turbo guts? Seems like that would be the ideal time to do it
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - DeliveryValve - 03-15-2013
(03-15-2013, 01:03 PM)sassparilla_kid If I have the engine out and on a stand though why not rebuild it with turbo guts? Seems like that would be the ideal time to do it
(03-14-2013, 08:58 PM)sassparilla_kid That sounds like exponentially more trouble lol
What he said^^^^. Hahah
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - OM616 - 03-16-2013
(03-15-2013, 01:03 PM)sassparilla_kid If I have the engine out and on a stand though why not rebuild it with turbo guts? Seems like that would be the ideal time to do it
Don't bother with the turbo pistons unless you mod the block for the piston squirters . The turbo pistons have a pocket between the bottom of the piston and the bottom of the dome for the oil to collect and pick up heat, then go out the other side of the piston.
With out the oil in the cavity, the dome will get hotter than the NA piston, because with the NA piston the bottom of the dome sees crank case oil splash to cool it.
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - sassparilla_kid - 03-16-2013
What would it take to add the oil squirters, drilling into an oil passage and tapping the holes? Also, if I stuck with the n/a pistons would it still be beneficial to use turbo rods? I think sodium filled valves are better regardless
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - OM616 - 03-16-2013
(03-16-2013, 02:42 PM)sassparilla_kid What would it take to add the oil squirters, drilling into an oil passage and tapping the holes? Also, if I stuck with the n/a pistons would it still be beneficial to use turbo rods? I think sodium filled valves are better regardless
Yes, the block will have to be machined for the squirters, but I am not sure if the oil gallery is where it needs to be on a 616 block. Plus you will want to use at least a 617 NA oil pump as it has a little larger volume, but not as much as a turbo oil pump.
Additionally, the wrist pins on a turbo rod/piston assembly are larger, so you can not use a turbo rod on a NA piston.
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - Simpler=Better - 03-17-2013
If I'm remembering correctly, you can get the block ultrasounded to see where the galley is. No idea on cost, that's something a race shop might do for wall thickness checking.
If you have a block that's totally scrap you could always cut it open to see.
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - swampmonkey - 03-18-2013
i got a w115 with a om616 from a late w123, can take some pictures if you need, no welding in the chassi, you cust need to make an "adapterplate" for the oilfilter, other than that, its "exactly" the same engine.
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - sassparilla_kid - 03-19-2013
Must find race shop.
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - swampmonkey - 03-19-2013
(03-19-2013, 01:01 PM)sassparilla_kid Must find race shop.
the adapterplate i have was homemade, a bit of metal, welded three pipes on, and the same on the oilfilter, nothing strange at al aslong as you got a mig/tig weld..
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - sassparilla_kid - 03-19-2013
(03-19-2013, 03:16 PM)swampmonkey(03-19-2013, 01:01 PM)sassparilla_kid Must find race shop.
the adapterplate i have was homemade, a bit of metal, welded three pipes on, and the same on the oilfilter, nothing strange at al aslong as you got a mig/tig weld..
I have a small wire feed welder at home, and a much bigger one at work I could use if needed
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - Simpler=Better - 03-20-2013
For the oil filter line nipples you should be able to find standard hydraulic connectors at tractor supply and grind them down then weld em' on
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - JB3 - 03-20-2013
I doubt even the 4cyl toploader oil filter will fit in a 115 chassis without cutting that brace off. You will have to test fit, but id be prepared to do a remote filter
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - sassparilla_kid - 03-20-2013
So the best course of action at this point would be to get the w123 engine on a stand, disdassembled down to block and head, get engine mounts from the w115 and put them on there, then proceed to reinstall all of the accessory stuff, and tackle the problems as I find them? As long as there are no differences in the upper or lower oil pans that I'm gonna have clearance issues with this is probably the route I'm gonna take
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - Simpler=Better - 03-21-2013
Sounds like a plan to me.
For the performance side of things, I'd find some funky cheap aftermarket turbo manifold for a 4 banger, and modify it to fit the 616. Then grab a 616 w115 intake and you're ready to roll
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - sassparilla_kid - 03-21-2013
I already have a 616 w115 intake, its on the car right now lol. As for turbo manifold, I have an extra couple turbo 617 manifolds I could chop the extra cylinder off of to make it work I think
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - ronnie - 04-03-2013
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-performance-tuning/310196-new-engine-build-616-a.html
Here is what I did on my 240. Stock rotating assembly, other then balancing it. Head work is what put my effort into. Right now boost is maxing out about 16 psi, and I have not hurt it. more or less 25,000 miles so far.
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - sassparilla_kid - 04-04-2013
Yeah I think for now I'm just gonna rebuild the engine on the '74, after the body gets fixed of course. I'm hoping I'll be able to get away with just rings and valve seals, but we'll see after I'm able to tear into it. Still waiting on insurance and the shop to decide when I'll be taking the car in for the body work so I have no idea when that will be done and I'll be able to pull the engine and what not
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - Simpler=Better - 04-04-2013
These go for $150 with a bunch of crap included http://www.xs-power.com/ford-turbo-manifolds-1.htm
You WILL have to reinforce it though, if you hang the turbo off it it will crack at the flange.
With some chopping it can fit a 616
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - sassparilla_kid - 06-12-2014
Okay reviving this thread, got a couple questions. First question, anybody know if a later 616 IP will bolt right on to an earlier 616 with the old style IP? Second question, if I turbo this thing the fast and easy way (no full rebuild yet) is a "T" in the oil pressure gauge line a viable way to supply oil to turbo?
If so I think I could turbo this thing in a weekend as long as I make the exhaust manifold first
Also, wouldn't plan on running more than 7-8 psi boost
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - Simpler=Better - 06-12-2014
If you're running the topload filter like on a 617a then get a 617a backplate for the oil feed.
Can you tap the filter housing to get clean pressurized oil somewhere else? 1/8" like seems pretty small to oil a turbo from 24" away
RE: 616.916 vs. 616.912 - sassparilla_kid - 06-12-2014
No room for that type of filter, it's got the retarded pain in the ass semi upside down canister