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+--- Thread: OM617 Turbo intake (/showthread.php?tid=445)
OM617 Turbo intake - Motorhead - 06-22-2009
I put the stock OM617 Turbo intake manifold on a flow bench and found the flow for all 5 ports to be 336.5 CFM@28" H2O and each port as #'ed, 1-176.0, 2-152.6, 3-163.2, 4-160.2, 5-152.1. I then put a chamfer on the sharp inlet step for the turbo side of the intake and the flow hit 350, the intake manifold is very sensitive to change and with a little work and testing allot of flow could be gained.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - winmutt - 06-22-2009
Lost you on sharp inlet step. Got pics? Would love to hear more about this!
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - Motorhead - 06-22-2009
I started working on the coupler that seals the turbo to the inlet manifold, this coupler is the single most restrictive part of the induction system but has the most to gain. The stock edges are sharp and the side that mates to the turbo is where the flow gains can be made, I will try to get some pics tonight after work. This coupler when mated to the intake manifold cut the flow down to 178.2 CFM from 350 but with a little work and alot of testing it is now flowing 324.6 CFM, let me tell you it is very rare that gains that big can be had especially that easy but all the testing was done on a Superflow 1020 and I checked the results many times.
I will also post all the port flow #'s with the changes to the coupling tonight, I bet there is more flow to be had in the intake and cylinder head.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - winmutt - 06-22-2009
Thats exactly the next question I had, what about the head it self and the exhaust manifold. There has been plenty of WAGing but not real work. Interesting that the stock couple is that restrictive.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - ForcedInduction - 06-22-2009
This is all nice, but its pretty much moot unless the head is ported. I can almost guarantee the flow past the intake valves is less than 336cfm.
The coupler is that shape for a reason. Look at the turbo's compressor housing and you'll see the coupler inlet is the same diameter as it's outlet. Unless you port the compressor housing as well it will greatly increase turbulence, not flow. Porting the housing would alter the A/R and mess with much more than CFM flow.
The W115 manifold eliminates all those restrictions, thats why everyone uses them.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - Motorhead - 06-23-2009
I wanted to post last night but I worked late, I will try again tonight. I agree that it is not one thing that makes all the improvements but the proper combination of many, as for the compressor housing I am going to port it to take advantage of the coupler shape but remember with core shift and many other differences the coupler may not be aligned in every install. I need to make a fixture for the flow bench then I could find out what the cylinder head flows stock, does anyone have flow #'s for a OM617 head that I could comare to?
I'm here to share and learn, I'm a fledgeling on diesels but not with engines and hope to gain enough information to become dangerous.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - ConnClark - 06-23-2009
(06-22-2009, 07:35 PM)ForcedInduction This is all nice, but its pretty much moot unless the head is ported. I can almost guarantee the flow past the intake valves is less than 336cfm.I bet its more than 178.2 CFM however
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - Motorhead - 06-23-2009
(06-23-2009, 02:23 PM)ConnClarkLook at the port flow #'s 1-5, I bet the intake flow #'s past the valve will be well over the 200 mark. We will find out what the head flow's and then we can bench race on that, I did notice the witness marks on the compressor housing was not straight and installed the coupler to see that it did interfere with the flow path.(06-22-2009, 07:35 PM)ForcedInduction This is all nice, but its pretty much moot unless the head is ported. I can almost guarantee the flow past the intake valves is less than 336cfm.I bet its more than 178.2 CFM however
The engine needs a long runner intake manifold but for now I just want to get my 300CD running a little better, what is the latest word on the IP's?
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - ForcedInduction - 06-23-2009
(06-23-2009, 06:23 PM)Motorhead The engine needs a long runner intake manifoldThats why most of us try to get a W115 manifold.
The Non-turbo W123 manifold can work. I know it clears my 2256V turbo but I'm not sure if it will clear the stock T3 or others.
Quote:what is the latest word on the IP's?I'm 75% through mounting my M-Pump right now. Later on I'll get the 6mm elements from a 99 E300 pump put into it until I feel like spending $1500 on Myna. The 6mm elements should be able to bring me to around 180hp at the crank (The E300 can do 220hp with a Speedtuning USA chip).
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - Motorhead - 06-23-2009
(06-23-2009, 09:20 PM)ForcedInductionMan that is nice, I guess I will have to locate a factory N/A intake. Who is doing pumps here in the US or do we have to pop the $2+grand and have Myna do it?(06-23-2009, 06:23 PM)Motorhead The engine needs a long runner intake manifoldThats why most of us try to get a W115 manifold.
The Non-turbo W123 manifold can work. I know it clears my 2256V turbo but I'm not sure if it will clear the stock T3 or others.
Quote:what is the latest word on the IP's?I'm 75% through mounting my M-Pump right now. Later on I'll get the 6mm elements from a 99 E300 pump put into it until I feel like spending $1500 on Myna. The 6mm elements should be able to bring me to around 180hp at the crank (The E300 can do 220hp with a Speedtuning USA chip).
Here is a pic of the coupler, when I put it in the intake the ports flowed the following.
Stock coupler: port # 1-139.3, 2-135.3, 3-139.5, 137.0, 5-130.5
Mod coupler : port # 1-159.2, 2-146.0, 3-152.6, 4-150.0, 5-145.0
![[Image: t3coupler.jpg]](http://superturbodiesel.com/images/benz/t3coupler.jpg)
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - Motorhead - 06-23-2009
One thing I noticed pulling this engine apart is the amount of oil in the turbo and intake, what do you do for oil control?
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - winmutt - 06-23-2009
(06-23-2009, 09:48 PM)Motorhead Man that is nice, I guess I will have to locate a factory N/A intake. Who is doing pumps here in the US or do we have to pop the $2+grand and have Myna do it?Myna is less than that and its not all that bad considering you get a fresh rebuilt pump with it. You wont pay much less for a full rebuild of the stock pump.
(06-23-2009, 10:06 PM)Motorhead One thing I noticed pulling this engine apart is the amount of oil in the turbo and intake, what do you do for oil control?Watch it curl over theaholewhoistailgatingme's windshield?
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - Motorhead - 06-24-2009
(06-23-2009, 10:41 PM)winmuttWatch the curl over what?(06-23-2009, 09:48 PM)Motorhead Man that is nice, I guess I will have to locate a factory N/A intake. Who is doing pumps here in the US or do we have to pop the $2+grand and have Myna do it?Myna is less than that and its not all that bad considering you get a fresh rebuilt pump with it. You wont pay much less for a full rebuild of the stock pump.
(06-23-2009, 10:06 PM)Motorhead One thing I noticed pulling this engine apart is the amount of oil in the turbo and intake, what do you do for oil control?Watch it curl over theaholewhoistailgatingme's windshield?
What intake manifold has the longest runners that will bolt on to a OM617, who has them for sale? I would like to do a liquid to air long runner intercooled intake, it will be allot better for packaging. I can get I/C cores and mod a stocker to look almost stock, the off boost bottom end response from the long runners is what the automatic cars need.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - winmutt - 06-24-2009
(06-24-2009, 10:24 AM)Motorhead Watch the curl over what?The smoke that burned from my turbo/intake oil
(06-24-2009, 10:24 AM)Motorhead What intake manifold has the longest runners that will bolt on to a OM617, who has them for sale? I would like to do a liquid to air long runner intercooled intake, it will be allot better for packaging. I can get I/C cores and mod a stocker to look almost stock, the off boost bottom end response from the long runners is what the automatic cars need.
I think everyone here would be very insterested to see what you come up with. I believe the 115 that FI showed would be the longest but who knows what it really flows like.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - GREASY_BEAST - 06-24-2009
(06-24-2009, 10:24 AM)Motorhead What intake manifold has the longest runners that will bolt on to a OM617, who has them for sale? I would like to do a liquid to air long runner intercooled intake, it will be allot better for packaging. I can get I/C cores and mod a stocker to look almost stock, the off boost bottom end response from the long runners is what the automatic cars need.
The intake on a W123 300D NA has pretty long runners... Although I bet a custom tubular intake with a good collector would flow a lot better, and be better for packaging.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - Motorhead - 06-24-2009
(06-24-2009, 01:21 PM)GREASY_BEASTWho has one of those stockers for sale, I will put in on the flow bench and see what it does?(06-24-2009, 10:24 AM)Motorhead What intake manifold has the longest runners that will bolt on to a OM617, who has them for sale? I would like to do a liquid to air long runner intercooled intake, it will be allot better for packaging. I can get I/C cores and mod a stocker to look almost stock, the off boost bottom end response from the long runners is what the automatic cars need.
The intake on a W123 300D NA has pretty long runners... Although I bet a custom tubular intake with a good collector would flow a lot better, and be better for packaging.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - ForcedInduction - 06-24-2009
One idea I was working with was using a W115 or N/A intake, cutting off the plenum, getting a generic A/W intercooler and welding the outlet side of the intercooler to the runners as the new plenum.
Using one of these.
![[Image: group-49f9dfaa-125e-486b-b4dc-fe1b7b6b2b52-420.jpg]](http://d5otzd52uv6zz.cloudfront.net/group-49f9dfaa-125e-486b-b4dc-fe1b7b6b2b52-420.jpg)
Kind of like this guy did (as an example after a quick search).
http://www.patrol4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24057
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - Motorhead - 06-24-2009
(06-24-2009, 03:28 PM)ForcedInduction One idea I was working with was using a W115 or N/A intake, cutting off the plenum, getting a generic A/W intercooler and welding the outlet side of the intercooler to the runners as the new plenum.I have to look but I think we have one just like that here in the shop, I think an air to water has the most potential and will package easy. You seem to have all the best 617 parts, let me know what else I'm missing.
Using one of these.
Kind of like this guy did (as an example after a quick search).
http://www.patrol4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24057
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - ConnClark - 06-24-2009
I'm going to be welding an A/W intercooler to my intake manifold when I get rid of my OxCat. I need a new turbo and some aluminum to practice my welding on first.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - Motorhead - 06-24-2009
(06-24-2009, 05:30 PM)ConnClark I'm going to be welding an A/W intercooler to my intake manifold when I get rid of my OxCat. I need a new turbo and some aluminum to practice my welding on first.
I think putting the intercooler in the intake plenum is the way to go, with some nice fab work I think you could make it look factory. As far as the I/C pump I think the stock Ford Cobra Mustang is not a bad 12V pump, it flows 9 GPM and draws about 11 amps. Maybe the Mercedes recirc pump would be good also but I have not any flow testing on it, I bet Forced Induction knows a good pump. Sorry I just went over some notes that was at 16V so at 12V it flowed 6.9 GPM, I did see the pump is made by Bosch part # 0 392 022 002.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - willbhere4u - 06-24-2009
on my Maserati Biturbo with twin air to water inter coolers it used a marine bilge pump! with an alcohol 2 water mix
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - Motorhead - 06-25-2009
What year of W-115 or W-123 does the N/A long runner intake manifold come on, I looked up Car-Part and besides the N/A 300D it also stated it fits CD and SD. It also asked if Calf. or Fed., does the CA intake have some extra junk that can be capped off ?
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - GREASY_BEAST - 06-25-2009
(06-25-2009, 10:02 AM)Motorhead What year of W-115 or W-123 does the N/A long runner intake manifold come on, I looked up Car-Part and besides the N/A 300D it also stated it fits CD and SD. It also asked if Calf. or Fed., does the CA intake have some extra junk that can be capped off ?
Mine is a 1977 W123 300D NA.
EDIT: Its a federal intake, but there is a port on the top of the plenum that could be capped off, and one on the front end of the plenum that has a steel "knockout" crammed (soldered?) in it. This could be knocked out and a nipple welded, or you could do what Forced was saying with half an A/W IC.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - Motorhead - 06-25-2009
(06-25-2009, 11:11 AM)GREASY_BEASTI am going to order one but I should get both styles and compare the flow, I will flow what ever one I get for now.(06-25-2009, 10:02 AM)Motorhead What year of W-115 or W-123 does the N/A long runner intake manifold come on, I looked up Car-Part and besides the N/A 300D it also stated it fits CD and SD. It also asked if Calf. or Fed., does the CA intake have some extra junk that can be capped off ?
Mine is a 1977 W123 300D NA.
EDIT: Its a federal intake, but there is a port on the top of the plenum that could be capped off, and one on the front end of the plenum that has a steel "knockout" crammed (soldered?) in it. This could be knocked out and a nipple welded, or you could do what Forced was saying with half an A/W IC.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - Motorhead - 06-25-2009
OK have one heading my way, all they had was a '76 300D. How many different N/A intakes exist for the OM617, is there any different exhaust manifolds for the turbo engines besides EGR and non?
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - ForcedInduction - 06-25-2009
Three; 75-76 W115, 76-81 W123 and Truck/Van (Like the W115 but with a forward pointing inlet).
Just the EGR and non for turbo manifolds.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - GREASY_BEAST - 06-25-2009
(06-25-2009, 07:20 PM)ForcedInduction Truck/Van (Like the W115 but with a forward pointing inlet).
Aha! Thats what the knockout is for.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - ForcedInduction - 06-25-2009
Wrong way. Its a totally different casting. I'll post a picture when I get home.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - ForcedInduction - 06-26-2009
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - Motorhead - 06-26-2009
Not only is that a cool intake what kind of truck is that in, don't tell me you have one of those too?
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - winmutt - 06-26-2009
Is that an O309D engine bay?
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - ForcedInduction - 06-26-2009
Yes, its from the 2/3/409D van/trucks. No, I don't have one.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - Syncro_G - 06-27-2009
(06-23-2009, 10:14 AM)Motorhead does anyone have flow #'s for a OM617 head that I could comare to?
I know of a race shop in Oakland, CA that is willing to flow/port 617 heads. The only problem is they want $900 to cover tooling costs. Seems like it would require a group purchase to get going. I'm not going to be ready until next year.
Anyone else have shops who are already set up?
-C
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - benztek - 06-27-2009
Yeah, I do. I need someone that has a spare head though! This guy works with me at the MB dealer but his other gig is this Studebaker speed shop. They are fully equipped and he told me a long time ago that he would check one out for me. Just need a spare head. www.solankiperformance.com
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - winmutt - 06-27-2009
(06-27-2009, 03:50 PM)benztek Yeah, I do. I need someone that has a spare head though! This guy works with me at the MB dealer but his other gig is this Studebaker speed shop. They are fully equipped and he told me a long time ago that he would check one out for me. Just need a spare head. www.solankiperformance.com
Want to go with me to pullapart and pull one together?
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - benztek - 06-27-2009
Yeah we can do that! I need a turbo motor anyways for the 78'! Does that new yard have any? I have been thinking about turning the 78' into a test bed/hot rod/race car/project anyways. Finding a turbo motor would just keep me from going the V8 route!
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - Motorhead - 06-28-2009
(06-27-2009, 09:22 PM)benztek Yeah we can do that! I need a turbo motor anyways for the 78'! Does that new yard have any? I have been thinking about turning the 78' into a test bed/hot rod/race car/project anyways. Finding a turbo motor would just keep me from going the V8 route!I have a 1980 300SD that is in nice shape but it needs A/C parts and I would rather put my money into my 300CD, I would trade the complete car for some parts.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - benztek - 06-29-2009
(06-28-2009, 10:53 PM)MotorheadWe might be able to work something out. PM me!(06-27-2009, 09:22 PM)benztek Yeah we can do that! I need a turbo motor anyways for the 78'! Does that new yard have any? I have been thinking about turning the 78' into a test bed/hot rod/race car/project anyways. Finding a turbo motor would just keep me from going the V8 route!I have a 1980 300SD that is in nice shape but it needs A/C parts and I would rather put my money into my 300CD, I would trade the complete car for some parts.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - SixSpeed - 06-30-2009
Hey, what is the best year to snatch the intake from?
I see that there were a few different kinds.
Would a 74-76 300D Non-Turbo be the best way to go? I'm planning on running a small intercooler setup.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - Motorhead - 06-30-2009
I just put my hands on a '76 300D and it looks bad ass, I would like to see anything better from the factory. I will put it on the flow bench soon and let you know how it is V/S the turbo manifold.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - Motorhead - 06-30-2009
I flushes out as much sludge out of the intake as I could and set it on the flow bench, this intake is a must!
Total flow is 424.4 CFM@28" H2O STOCK
Cyl#1-179, 2-171, 3-167, 4-170, 5-169
The inlet lip had core shift and was thicker on one side than the other so I rolled and blended the lip, I did not spend more than 5 min. on it just to see what it would do.
Total flow after lip roll is 505.2 CFM@28" H2O
Cyl#1-181, 2-173, 3-173, 4-178, 5-170
I will put the intake into the hot tank and see if any cylinders come in better but I think this intake is perfect out of the box, the casting # on it is: R 617 141 02 01 it looks like ForcedInduction's intake.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - willbhere4u - 06-30-2009
I almost bought one earlier today for $20 what was I thinking I'll have to go back and get it I guess! Cool stuff thanks for all of your hard work on this subject!!!!
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - ForcedInduction - 07-01-2009
Yeah, MB had their reasons for using it on both the C111-II/III.
Remember that those CFMs are with atmospheric pressure flowing the air. Add a turbo with a 2.0 pressure ratio and I bet those numbers go much higher.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - Motorhead - 07-01-2009
(07-01-2009, 02:55 AM)ForcedInduction Yeah, MB had their reasons for using it on both the C111-II/III.Yep add an atmosphere or 2 and see the #'s hit 400+ a port and the inlet go 1,300+, my next area of concern is the cylinder head. I need to get that flow fixture made so we can see what the 617 can do, when we find out what the port will flow then we will know the what demands the I/P will need to do for max power. Has anyone fooled around with valve timing, I was going to see if I could make the cam sprocket adjustable to see how it effects performance. I'm sure there is better drivability and power that can be had from valve and fuel timing adjustmens.
Remember that those CFMs are with atmospheric pressure flowing the air. Add a turbo with a 2.0 pressure ratio and I bet those numbers go much higher.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - ForcedInduction - 07-01-2009
Well, we know retarding the cam timing doesn't increase power. Advancing the timing to make up for chain wear brings back significant power. There is only about 2mm squish clearance to work with though.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - willbhere4u - 07-02-2009
you shoud post a pic of that manifold!
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - ForcedInduction - 07-02-2009
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - willbhere4u - 07-02-2009
That's sweet I went back this morning and and picked up that manifold for $25 and ordered an air to water inter cooler so I can set it all up at once with my engine swap in to my 240d i just have to make some elbows and such now!
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - Motorhead - 07-02-2009
Here is the intake I picked up, look at the inlet and see how little I had to roll the lip to pick up flow. Man that 617 looks bad ass with that intake, I can't wait to see my pile with one under the hood.
RE: OM617 Turbo intake - willbhere4u - 07-04-2009
So it flows better and you eliminate the restrictive turbo connector how well does it work? do you get a noticeable improvement in spool time and over all power???
how much hp would you expect doing this intake manifold with a water to air inter cooler 20-25hp????