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+--- Thread: w123 clutch issues (/showthread.php?tid=4724)
w123 clutch issues - sassparilla_kid - 07-14-2013
SO as some of you may know I recently finished swapping a manual trans into my w123, and it works great except one problem, the clutch. The clutch pedal is extremely mushy, even after bleeding it. Sometimes it returns, sometimes it just stays on the floor. And here's the kicker, sometimes when I'm driving the pedal just sucks itself down to the floor
When it stays on the floor though the clutch doesn't stay diesengaged, and when I push the pedal it only disengages for about 1/4 second which is barely long enough to get it into gear.
Help please folks,
thanks
RE: w123 clutch issues - poleshady - 07-15-2013
ive had the clutch not returning, and itself go to the ground and not disengage when i press it too. Tried bleeding got a little better, hopefully someone has the anwer
RE: w123 clutch issues - Simpler=Better - 07-15-2013
Bleed it from the bottom, and check for leaks. Is the master or slave leaking?
RE: w123 clutch issues - JB3 - 07-15-2013
x2 to above, this is a hydraulic issue, your hydraulic systems are still full of air.
The pedal will pop to the floor based on spring assist at the pedal assembly, and without hydraulic pressure to prevent that, that shows you that its still considerably air laden.
The factory method is to bleed through the RF brake caliper, connecting the bleeders on the caliper and slave, and using slow pumps of the brake pedal to force fluid up through the clutch system.
This can work great, but 9 times out of ten its a pain in the ass and results in a huge mess. One of those things that works great on a brand new car in the factory, but not so much after 30 years.
If you have two people, bleed the clutch system like you would a brake system, that seems to work well for me. open the bleeder, depress the clutch until you have solid fluid, keep pedal depressed and close the bleeder, pump up, rinse and repeat until you have a nice hard pedal.
if you have one person, bleed it from the bottom like said above
RE: w123 clutch issues - sassparilla_kid - 07-15-2013
Yeah iheartboost and I tried it yesterday as you would bleed a brake system and there was quite a bit of fluid pumping through but it still wasn't getting any firmer, I guess I just get to try again later
RE: w123 clutch issues - JB3 - 07-15-2013
(07-15-2013, 09:12 AM)sassparilla_kid Yeah iheartboost and I tried it yesterday as you would bleed a brake system and there was quite a bit of fluid pumping through but it still wasn't getting any firmer, I guess I just get to try again later
a component may be an issue, what in the clutch hydraulic system is a used part?
did you transfer it all over, replace anything?
Ive had a number of issues using older parts that worked fine in the donor car, slaves that started leaking inside the bell, masters that started leaking internally. All as soon as I dislodged them or moved them and tried to rebleed.
In one instance the bleeder on a slave that worked perfectly well on a donor car was completely full of debris, you could remove the bleeder and nothing would come out, and it could not be bled.
If you have any old components it might be worth checking them and or using new stuff.
If its all new, eventually the air will get worked out with endless pumping and bleeding. The clutch systems are unusually annoying on these cars though
RE: w123 clutch issues - Simpler=Better - 07-15-2013
(07-15-2013, 09:21 AM)JB3 [quote='sassparilla_kid' pid='53553' dateline='1373897549']
If its all new, eventually the air will get worked out with endless pumping and bleeding. The clutch systems are unusually annoying on these cars though
It could be worse, want to work on my internal slave?
RE: w123 clutch issues - JB3 - 07-15-2013
(07-15-2013, 10:05 AM)Simpler=Better(07-15-2013, 09:21 AM)JB3 [quote='sassparilla_kid' pid='53553' dateline='1373897549']
If its all new, eventually the air will get worked out with endless pumping and bleeding. The clutch systems are unusually annoying on these cars though
It could be worse, want to work on my internal slave?
god forbid. I have long maintained that the engineer that came up with an internal slave cylinder needs to be severely beaten, and then forced to replace internal slave cylinders every day for eternity
RE: w123 clutch issues - sassparilla_kid - 07-15-2013
Yeah all the stuff came from the donor car, the master was sucking in air through that little rubber grommet where the line plugs into it so I got that working (it had good pressure out of the car), then tried to re-bleed and a bunch of fluid was coming through the bleeder but still no luck. This morning there was a little brake fluid under the car so luckily I ordered a new slave cylinder because I'm pretty sure the old one is bad.
RE: w123 clutch issues - w123love - 07-15-2013
My issues went as follows: Mushy pedal, no success with caliper bleeding.
New slave cylinder, (tried to use old one), and had a new master cylinder. No dice with standard bleeding.
Got my MityVac, sucked it from the bottom, got some flow, Voila! Its nice now. Still feels as if there is air though. On hot days it takes more pedal travel to engage reverse, which always tends to grind a bit if I don't tap the accelerator to synch the gears.
RE: w123 clutch issues - sassparilla_kid - 07-15-2013
Yeah the slave grenaded, I was barely able to get it into gear after work, but once I did I managed to get home, I just never stopped and may have made a few illegal traffic maneuvers.
On a related note, is there any trick to getting the slave out? I managed to get the bottom bolt off but the top one is being more hesitant, maybe if I get a wrench and bend it a little I might be able to get it in there
Also I'm pretty certain it's the slave because there was fluid under the car after work and the slave was wet
RE: w123 clutch issues - DeliveryValve - 07-15-2013
Sometimes the bleeders at the threaded portion are the culprits in introducing air, but I guess this not the case.
Oh man, I feel bad. Hopefully the new slave will do the job.
.
RE: w123 clutch issues - sassparilla_kid - 07-16-2013
Yeah I think it should, I thought about replacing it while the trans was out of the car but I didn't so I guess this is what I get for being a cheap bastard lol
RE: w123 clutch issues - sassparilla_kid - 07-17-2013
So, from my experience and from what seems like everybody else's experience as well, the clutches in these cars are a pain in the arse, so what I've been thinking is what about retrofitting a cable clutch? Does that seem doable? I have no experience with cable clutches so I'm not really sure if one could be set up to push instead of pull (since I believe that's how they normally work?) but if so, I think it might be pretty easy to just cannibalize the slave and master cylinders to make it work
RE: w123 clutch issues - Simpler=Better - 07-17-2013
Absolutely not. Cable clutches are for VWs and motorcycles (and some misguided domestics)
Your money would be better spent cobbing together a HF power bleeder (They sell a "high pressure" oiler that can be used)
RE: w123 clutch issues - sassparilla_kid - 07-17-2013
Tried the oiler method, didn't do shit
RE: w123 clutch issues - JB3 - 07-17-2013
(07-15-2013, 09:43 PM)sassparilla_kid Yeah the slave grenaded, I was barely able to get it into gear after work, but once I did I managed to get home, I just never stopped and may have made a few illegal traffic maneuvers.
On a related note, is there any trick to getting the slave out? I managed to get the bottom bolt off but the top one is being more hesitant, maybe if I get a wrench and bend it a little I might be able to get it in there
Also I'm pretty certain it's the slave because there was fluid under the car after work and the slave was wet
a long extension and a socket will get that top bolt. 1/4 inch ratchet I usually use, with a 12 inch extension
(07-17-2013, 02:51 AM)sassparilla_kid So, from my experience and from what seems like everybody else's experience as well, the clutches in these cars are a pain in the arse, so what I've been thinking is what about retrofitting a cable clutch? Does that seem doable? I have no experience with cable clutches so I'm not really sure if one could be set up to push instead of pull (since I believe that's how they normally work?) but if so, I think it might be pretty easy to just cannibalize the slave and master cylinders to make it work
cable clutches have loads of other problems. The nice thing about hydraulic clutches, if it isn't leaking or air filled, it pretty much works consistently.
Cable clutch you have a whole new sort of fatigue issue, stretching, adjustment to compensate for cable stretch, rusting in the sleeve, and ive had one snap on me once, due to rust and corrosion. Plus I personally prefer the feel of hydraulics over cable, but thats a personal call
RE: w123 clutch issues - sassparilla_kid - 07-19-2013
Okay I got the old slave out and the new one half way in, hopefully I can finish this weekend
RE: w123 clutch issues - sassparilla_kid - 07-21-2013
Alright, so I have replaced the slave cylinder, old one blew the seal out because it was all rotted and old and what not. Tried to bleed the system, and no go. If I pump the pedal quickly it's firm, although if I hold it down for more than about a second it stays on the floor, which since the fluid level isn't changing leads me to think there is a bad seal in the master cylinder. F.M.L.
RE: w123 clutch issues - lgreeley83 - 07-21-2013
Sorry man. You'll love it when you get all the kinks out.
RE: w123 clutch issues - MFSuper90 - 07-22-2013
I say just get a Crower clutch and put in it!
RE: w123 clutch issues - sassparilla_kid - 07-28-2013
So I have the new master cylinder in, hopefully after my dad comes back from the grocery store he can help me bleed it and all will be good, because I would really like to drive my car again, because my 240 barely gets out of its own way and I wanna go fast lol
RE: w123 clutch issues - sassparilla_kid - 07-29-2013
The master cylinder is bled and the clutch system works like it's supposed to, although I had to cut the celebratory burnouts short because cars were coming and I didn't want to hold up traffic
RE: w123 clutch issues - lgreeley83 - 07-29-2013
I like driving really slow in 3rd or 4th with the break and gas pedal floored and pooring smoke on tailgaters.
RE: w123 clutch issues - JB3 - 07-30-2013
(07-29-2013, 12:38 AM)sassparilla_kid The master cylinder is bled and the clutch system works like it's supposed to, although I had to cut the celebratory burnouts short because cars were coming and I didn't want to hold up traffic
awesome! glad you got it worked out.