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+--- Thread: Switching to oblique injectors: are 314 nozzles better than 265? (/showthread.php?tid=4743)
Switching to oblique injectors: are 314 nozzles better than 265? - raysorenson - 07-19-2013
I'm going to oblique, or angled, injectors in my 603. I'm currently using pretty fresh 265 nozzles.
Will these work fine with the oblique prechambers?
If I can use either the 265 or 314 nozzles, are the 314 nozzles a worthwhile upgrade with respect to idle quality? Will they help low rpm, off-boost torque?
RE: Switching to oblique injectors: are 314 nozzles better than 265? - OM616 - 07-19-2013
For what is it worth... My understanding is that the 314 nozzles are the latest design version. The main focus for an OEM is always on emissions first. From what I have read, the 314 nozzle orifice is different to promote a finer spray, allowing for better combustion and quieter operation and idle quality.
Advancing the injection timing as much as acceptable will increase bottom end torque.
RE: Switching to oblique injectors: are 314 nozzles better than 265? - raysorenson - 07-19-2013
I love the lower emissions part and the quieter idle part. I initially got a boner for oblique injection after driving my GF's 300d 2.5T with angled injectors. I never see smoke and it's damn near as quiet as a new diesel. I'm curious about how much of the share of idle improvement is due to oblique injection and how much is due to the 314 nozzles.
As usual, before I posted I did a lot of searching. In this thread remarks were made regarding nozzle experimentation low rpm torque. Somebody said that Bozios made a significant low RRM torque improvement and there's this...
Forced The 240/ is quiet and gives decent low-end torque.
265 is a little louder, loses some low end torque but has more high end power.
The 2-stages were quiet, even with 265 nozzles, but lost noticeable low end torque.
I'm very concerned about low RPM torque. While my IP timing is advanced to the upper limit of specs, my low rpm torque sucks. Pair that with a manual trans, a steep driveway and plans for a bigger turbo and you can see why I'm interested in any way possible to help off-boost torque.
RE: Switching to oblique injectors: are 314 nozzles better than 265? - MFSuper90 - 07-21-2013
Ray, fill me in on this "oblique injection". I am not quite sure what you mean
RE: Switching to oblique injectors: are 314 nozzles better than 265? - raysorenson - 07-22-2013
Angled injectors. Used on later build 60x engines to increase swirl in the PC thereby reducing emissions and improving fuel economy.
RE: Switching to oblique injectors: are 314 nozzles better than 265? - MFSuper90 - 07-22-2013
So oblique injectors would not apply to the 617's? I've never been close to the 60x so I do not know how much the prechambers varied, but I imagine they changed quite a bit
RE: Switching to oblique injectors: are 314 nozzles better than 265? - raysorenson - 07-22-2013
I don't think they'll work in a 61x. I'm sure OM606 could tell you for sure.
This page gives a lot of info on the 60x prechambers
http://www.startekinfo.com/StarTek/outside/12264/Program/Engine/602_603/01-417.pdf
RE: Switching to oblique injectors: are 314 nozzles better than 265? - barrote - 07-22-2013
Pre chambers on 60x are prety close to those on 61x, or any type engine in the mercedes range for IDI engines , what changes is the exaust holes in the chamber. have u seen the ball inside the pre-chamber? so what u think is there for?
my opinion, u want the fuel to exit the pre-chamber fast to get high tq, wont work that way. high tq will come with slow spreading of gases. two ways to get it , reduce holes size, or increase holes quantity and get it with fuel. high tq come with decrease in injection timing, high rpm comes with increase in rpm timing. u can play around with this.
tip check some dif in truck engine, regarding the pre-chambers.
regards
RE: Switching to oblique injectors: are 314 nozzles better than 265? - raysorenson - 09-10-2013
I did the swap this weekend. I pop tested the 3.5l injectors and they looked fine so I used them. Judging by the noise, I suspect they're also 265 nozzles. I was hoping they would have 314 nozzles in them :-(
The good news is the performance increase with the oblique prechambers. I used to get a smoke screen in the lower gears at heavy throttle and high rpm. Now there's just an opaque mist and the engine likes to rev more. I used to have to shift at about 4100 rpm due to lack of torque, now I rev it to 5k. Not much noticeable difference below 3000 rpm.
RE: Switching to oblique injectors: are 314 nozzles better than 265? - DiseaselWeasel - 09-10-2013
(07-22-2013, 11:46 AM)MFSuper90 So oblique injectors would not apply to the 617's? I've never been close to the 60x so I do not know how much the prechambers varied, but I imagine they changed quite a bit
The MB100 got prechambers for angled injection from '91 on... The MB100 used the OM616 until 1995! With the newer design pre-chambers (same date for OM60X engines) it made 75HP. Those pre-chambers are sought after, though... But, as far as I'm aware they fit the OM617. You'd need new injector holders, though... Normal/angled injection: http://archiv.mb100.de/images/6/6a/A7c94f6a7779f8dc2a44f48d8fed150d0_medium.jpg
RE: Switching to oblique injectors: are 314 nozzles better than 265? - raysorenson - 09-10-2013
Whoa. This is a revelation. It appears the part# for the prechamber is A6160100752.
RE: Switching to oblique injectors: are 314 nozzles better than 265? - MFSuper90 - 09-10-2013
So are the nozzles the same?
RE: Switching to oblique injectors: are 314 nozzles better than 265? - raysorenson - 09-10-2013
I got pt# 0010174612 which a cursory web search says is a 261
RE: Switching to oblique injectors: are 314 nozzles better than 265? - MFSuper90 - 09-10-2013
From what I can see they are different body injectors, and what I meant to ask is if the nozzles are interchangeable from body to body.
So in order to switch to oblique you'd need different prechambers and the different style injector?
And for the benefit of running smoother or what
RE: Switching to oblique injectors: are 314 nozzles better than 265? - raysorenson - 09-11-2013
In the parts thing, there's a build date split for the prechambers and injector bodies. There's no build date split for the nozzles. I take that to mean the same nozzles went in the normal early injector housings and the later housings for angled prechambers.
RE: Switching to oblique injectors: are 314 nozzles better than 265? - Volker407 - 09-11-2013
(09-11-2013, 06:55 AM)raysorenson In the parts thing, there's a build date split for the prechambers and injector bodies. There's no build date split for the nozzles. I take that to mean the same nozzles went in the normal early injector housings and the later housings for angled prechambers.
That´s correct.
Mercedes had published a technical newsletter around 1995 where Mercedes announced that 261s can be used as a replacement for 1510, 240/ and the other nozzles which were used for OM61x engines.
I have that letter somewhere but I can´t find it at the moment.
Gruß
Volker
RE: Switching to oblique injectors: are 314 nozzles better than 265? - SuperCow - 09-11-2013
I have some documents, not sure there useable:
0002 - Overview of the injection nozzles (note deviations for off-road vehicles) Engines 601, 602.91, 603.pdf
Size: 7.66 KB / Downloads: 1,878
Size: 7.66 KB / Downloads: 1,878
0010 - Function of the injection system P. Injection nozzles (note deviations for off-road vehicles) Engines 601, 602.91
Size: 108.58 KB / Downloads: 489
Size: 108.58 KB / Downloads: 489
0010 - Function of the injection system_ P. Facet pintle nozzle Engine 602.96, 603.96_97 TURBO (Model 463.3_ pay attenti
Size: 12.86 KB / Downloads: 421
Size: 12.86 KB / Downloads: 421
So if i understand correctly you can convert the old prechamber/injector to the new inclined type?
I have checked EPC and the head number hasn't changed from old type to new.
But the prechamber, prechamber nut and ring, and of course the injector.
Also a other camshaft have been used.
RE: Switching to oblique injectors: are 314 nozzles better than 265? - raysorenson - 09-11-2013
(09-11-2013, 02:59 PM)SuperCow So if i understand correctly you can convert the old prechamber/injector to the new inclined type?
I have checked EPC and the head number hasn't changed from old type to new.
But the prechamber, prechamber nut and ring, and of course the injector.
Also a other camshaft have been used.
As long as the angled prechambers work with the piston, then I think you're good. Add fuel lines to the list or take the chance on bending the old ones.
Are you asking about a particular engine?
RE: Switching to oblique injectors: are 314 nozzles better than 265? - SuperCow - 09-13-2013
(09-11-2013, 06:06 PM)raysorenson(09-11-2013, 02:59 PM)SuperCow So if i understand correctly you can convert the old prechamber/injector to the new inclined type?
I have checked EPC and the head number hasn't changed from old type to new.
But the prechamber, prechamber nut and ring, and of course the injector.
Also a other camshaft have been used.
As long as the angled prechambers work with the piston, then I think you're good. Add fuel lines to the list or take the chance on bending the old ones.
Are you asking about a particular engine?
Not really, but if the opportunity comes by to buy those parts cheap, why not.
I have the OM602.911 non turbo euro version with 90PK.
Its doesn't have the electronic pump (ELR), but the vacuum one.
The new type with new prechamers has 94PK and maybe more fuel efficient?
I have to same question about the nozzles, i post here 2 weeks ago.
I maybe want to rebuild my injectors with SD314 nozzles, if that is a good thing to do. I don't want to experiment, and fail haha
I have found this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgrP_EyYTqg
Old type Om602 with 2 stage injectors(KCA27S77) of a VW with 314 nozzle