617 header? - Printable Version

617 header? - Printable Version

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617 header? - JB3 - 08-25-2013

Would there be any benefit to making a header for a 617? Has anyone made one?

RE: 617 header? - raysorenson - 08-25-2013

JTy had one made. He said it was needed for 1 bar or more of boost. Check his build thread.

RE: 617 header? - Simpler=Better - 08-25-2013

It's on my mile-long list of crap to do, and isn't terribly hard. Estimates assume we're ordering 10 or more.

-Draw up flanges in CAD, hire out to get them cut ($80/flange for 1/2")
-Draw up runner in CAD, hire out to pipe bending shop to get pipes bent. Buying prebends would be around $100-$150 so assume $150.
-Play lego and weld together, leave the turbo flange to the user's application

If I had a garage and a welder, I'd probably want $350-$400 each because that's going to take 5 years to weld.

If you're going to hack it together Jeep XJs and wrangers with the 4.0L have tubular headers (up to 2000ish) that can be salvaged for tubing. $25 at the JY would get you 6x 90° bends and a couple 'Y' mergers. Of course, there are also 500 domestic v8 headers on CL for cheap too.

Intake is easier, just get a flange and 5x 90° bends, BAM home made w115 intake.

RE: 617 header? - JB3 - 08-26-2013

(08-25-2013, 05:55 PM)raysorenson JTy had one made. He said it was needed for 1 bar or more of boost. Check his build thread.

good call, thanks! I had forgotten about that incredible job he did.

(08-25-2013, 06:07 PM)Simpler=Better It's on my mile-long list of crap to do, and isn't terribly hard. Estimates assume we're ordering 10 or more.

-Draw up flanges in CAD, hire out to get them cut ($80/flange for 1/2")
-Draw up runner in CAD, hire out to pipe bending shop to get pipes bent. Buying prebends would be around $100-$150 so assume $150.
-Play lego and weld together, leave the turbo flange to the user's application

If I had a garage and a welder, I'd probably want $350-$400 each because that's going to take 5 years to weld.

If you're going to hack it together Jeep XJs and wrangers with the 4.0L have tubular headers (up to 2000ish) that can be salvaged for tubing. $25 at the JY would get you 6x 90° bends and a couple 'Y' mergers. Of course, there are also 500 domestic v8 headers on CL for cheap too.

Intake is easier, just get a flange and 5x 90° bends, BAM home made w115 intake.

I have a sexy 115 intake already. Big Grin

Basically im considering trying to build a header for my 74 240 with a 617 out of an SD. I made this S pipe a while back that won't work as the motor was sitting too high when I measured it up, so that has to be redone. I was going to make another S pipe, but EDH_performance looks likes hes having so much fun in the project threads that I was thinking I might try to make a header too.

This is how it currently looks-

RE: 617 header? - Simpler=Better - 08-26-2013

In that location you would only need a couple bends, and then some fancy support work. I'd call around and see what some 0.100" wall tubing with a bend in the middle.

At the engine, take into account the port direction to the valve. #1 points forward, so you'll want to have the header pipe stick out past the port a little-know what I mean?

For the header flange, trace/trim a gasket and drop it off at a waterjet shop. Probably $100ish for a one-off.

RE: 617 header? - JB3 - 08-26-2013

(08-26-2013, 08:00 AM)Simpler=Better In that location you would only need a couple bends, and then some fancy support work. I'd call around and see what some 0.100" wall tubing with a bend in the middle.

Good call, I was going to ask what a good wall thickness should be. That S pipe is made from a U section I ordered from somewhere, but honestly, it was less useful than I wanted it to be. Im thinking about ordering some of these steel donuts and straight pipe-

http://www.pro-werks.com/partlist/979/

(08-26-2013, 08:00 AM)Simpler=Better At the engine, take into account the port direction to the valve. #1 points forward, so you'll want to have the header pipe stick out past the port a little-know what I mean?

could you clarify what you mean? are you saying that I should come out straight a certain amount to compensate for the valve direction?

(08-26-2013, 08:00 AM)Simpler=Better For the header flange, trace/trim a gasket and drop it off at a waterjet shop. Probably $100ish for a one-off.

Another good idea. Think there are a few places locally that could handle this

RE: 617 header? - Simpler=Better - 08-26-2013

Are donuts the cheapest way to get your bends? If you have space for a traditional large radius bend I'd go with that. smoother flow blah blah blah

This is what I mean by port angle for the #1 exhaust and the #5 intake, it's a terrible pic but hopefully it gets the idea across:

RE: 617 header? - JB3 - 08-26-2013

(08-26-2013, 09:58 AM)Simpler=Better Are donuts the cheapest way to get your bends? If you have space for a traditional large radius bend I'd go with that. smoother flow blah blah blah

This is what I mean by port angle for the #1 exhaust and the #5 intake, it's a terrible pic but hopefully it gets the idea across:

Ok! I totally see what you are saying on the port angle, makes perfect sense now.

I was thinking donuts because of the possibility of getting a better than 90 degree bend, and still having a lot of good bend in the source material.

The problem I was having with the U shapes was at best, you have two 90 degree turns, and if you cut further than 90 degrees, the rest of your material is an obtuse angle.

With a donut you could cut out a 180 degree bend and still have a good 90 left. Might be cost effective, though that website doesn't list a price, so thats a bad sign. Big Grin

RE: 617 header? - Simpler=Better - 08-26-2013

~$50 for a 1.5" donut.

$5 for a stainless 1.5" 90° "el" =$20 for 4x 90° bends
http://www.acestainless.com/butt-weld-fittings/304l-buttweld-fittings/weld-els/stainless-weld-els/weld-els

holy crap, at that price I might need to make my own.

Donuts are only for really tight looparounds, and with all that space under a w115's hood you can definitely get away with regular butt-weld bends.

RE: 617 header? - Simpler=Better - 08-28-2013

Hrm.....

RE: 617 header? - 300SD_KY - 08-30-2013

i asked the team at Bluegrass Mufflers ... they have a mandrel bender ... how much for headers and a 3" stainless exhaust ... about $1k and a week to get it right.

RE: 617 header? - Simpler=Better - 08-30-2013

I've got the backing plate drawn up, I'll be looking into quotes in the next few weeks. KKD will make a full header for ~$800 euros, and it's beautitful.

For anyone wiht acess to a welder, $5 weld-els and a cheap welder should be just fine.

RE: 617 header? - kmaser - 09-05-2013

Have you checked with KKD recently, last I spoke with them they no longer had the template and didn't sound interested in making one? I am in need of a better exhaust for my 617 and would pay for one but I have been quoted $1200 plus up here..

RE: 617 header? - Simpler=Better - 09-05-2013

Yeah I'm hoping to put together a cheap DIY kit maybe if I get around to it maybe one day, maybe.

Did I put enough maybes in there?

RE: 617 header? - Simpler=Better - 09-07-2013

So, got the fancy flanges drawn up, the cheapo version shall be drawn up soon in the near future probably. Maybe if I get REALLY motivated I'll get some quotes...no promises though

0.050" between the flanges vertically, 0.100" between the flanges horizontally. I'm assuming that these will need some custom fitment to any car, but they might just slap in. Really depends on how accurate the shops can cut em'

EDIT:

Increased the clearances, added some fancy fillets:

RE: 617 header? - Simpler=Better - 09-08-2013

Bam. The cheapies would be all individual pieces, supported by the tubing or whatever braces can get slapped on. You'd have to weld while they were torqued onto the head to keep everything from warping. I trimmed back the edges to make it use less material but hopefully probably still be strong enough

RE: 617 header? - JB3 - 12-02-2013

nice job on the templates!

im returning to this plan

I made another S for my application, and realized that a 3 inch exhaust doesn't make all that much sense when Ive already restricted the flow way down anyway with an S-pipe thats at most 2 inches for all 5 cylinders. Call it putting high speed tires on something with a 3cyl metro engine in it.

Im considering hand making the 3 pieces I need for the exhaust manifold, and keeping my factory intake unmolested.

This had presented an issue with the bolts though, Im seriously considering cutting the ends of a cast iron stock piece to use the flanges and correct bolt height, and trying to weld my L's from there

Id try the cold welding method, but even the cold welding for cast iron calls for 100 degrees in temp. Big Grin

I was thinking "cold" welding meaning outside in the winter, probably not viable it seems

RE: 617 header? - sassparilla_kid - 12-02-2013

I might need to get the files from you at some point for those fancy big ones, and maaaaybe I can get one cut on a water jet if I talk to the right people Wink

RE: 617 header? - DirtDiesel - 12-02-2013

I would be very interested in those files. itd be a great school project on the cnc.

RE: 617 header? - giezy - 12-02-2013

I think it would be good to build the header to adapt a bigger turbo and away from the intake mabee even a intercooler

RE: 617 header? - JB3 - 12-03-2013

just got a good deal on a large amount of 1 and 1/4" L's and 1 and 1/2" L's, shore 40, nice thick sidewalls.

All made for railing construction, should do well as header material

RE: 617 header? - Simpler=Better - 12-03-2013

(12-03-2013, 01:06 PM)JB3 just got a good deal on a large amount of 1 and 1/4" L's and 1 and 1/2" L's, shore 40, nice thick sidewalls.

All made for railing construction, should do well as header material

Can you post the ID/OD of those? When they're listed online I can't ever figure out which is which in that backwards plumber nomenclature.

RE: 617 header? - JB3 - 12-03-2013

(12-03-2013, 01:28 PM)Simpler=Better Can you post the ID/OD of those? When they're listed online I can't ever figure out which is which in that backwards plumber nomenclature.

The inner diameters are pretty consistent 1 and 1/4 and 1 and 1/2 for the larger 90s.
The sidewall thickness is 8th inch, so the larger pipe is 1 and 3/4 OD, and 1 and 1/2 ID.
The smaller pipe is 1 and 1/2 OD, and 1 and 1/4 ID.

The quality of the steel is shore 40, and the drawback to these elbows is that they have a seam that must be welded shut if I intend to use them. They arent extruded as one piece, but folded over, and have a weld seam on the inside.
They are steel railing source material evidently

RE: 617 header? - sassparilla_kid - 12-03-2013

Those seams should be pretty easy to weld, especially since they don't really need much/any filler. I'm not a professional welder by any means, but I bet you could just run along them with a tig or even an oxy-acetylene torch and be fine

RE: 617 header? - JB3 - 12-03-2013

(12-03-2013, 01:50 PM)sassparilla_kid Those seams should be pretty easy to weld, especially since they don't really need much/any filler. I'm not a professional welder by any means, but I bet you could just run along them with a tig or even an oxy-acetylene torch and be fine

oh definitely, I agree. Im probably just going to weld every elbow individually before even playing with making a header, just to be sure there aren't any seams that escape or are inaccessible later on.

Basically the downside is a bit more work on the front end I should say to clarify, otherwise it seems like good material to me.

RE: 617 header? - Simpler=Better - 12-03-2013

Alright, alright I'll get moving on the flages jeez.