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+-- Forum: Tuning (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
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+--- Thread: Turbo? (/showthread.php?tid=496)
Turbo? - Motorhead - 07-09-2009
OK what is this device on the turbo of my '84 CD, I know one thing for sure is that I'm going to change it with the compressor housing from the '82 spare turbo.
RE: Turbo? - ForcedInduction - 07-09-2009
Air recirculation valve. It lowers boost pressure to force more exhaust into the intake.
Replace the air filter housing as well, the 84 has a more narrow airflow path to clear the ARV.
RE: Turbo? - winmutt - 07-09-2009
Be careful in CA.
RE: Turbo? - Motorhead - 07-09-2009
Cool, man the smog nazi's got to this car too. I will keep all my old junk but put the first build together with the '82 stuff, I probably will use the N/A intake on this engine also but the new engine will alot different. They are not fooling around with old Merc's yet but I'm sure if you drive a smoker or there is a tax to be gotten then we will have to adapt ond overcome. That is why I chose to Hot Rod Merc diesels, as of now they are smog exempt here in Califorina.
RE: Turbo? - willbhere4u - 07-09-2009
I was wondering that same thing last week end when I saw that same turbo at junk yard down in Denver
good luck! keep posting pics as you get some progress done!
RE: Turbo? - ForcedInduction - 07-09-2009
(07-09-2009, 12:04 PM)willbhere4u I was wondering that same thing last week end when I saw that same turbo at junk yard down in Denver
Is that 84 SD still there? I may be getting the differential out of it this weekend.
RE: Turbo? - willbhere4u - 07-09-2009
I saw it two weeks ago at pull and save I think??? 33 & Peoria if not it was pay and pull on Zeno ST. there is a w115 300d up at Anderson's in Greely I saw that 3 weeks ago don't know if its still there
RE: Turbo? - Telecommbrkr - 07-09-2009
(07-09-2009, 09:55 AM)Motorhead Cool, man the smog nazi's got to this car too. I will keep all my old junk but put the first build together with the '82 stuff, I probably will use the N/A intake on this engine also but the new engine will alot different. They are not fooling around with old Merc's yet but I'm sure if you drive a smoker or there is a tax to be gotten then we will have to adapt ond overcome. That is why I chose to Hot Rod Merc diesels, as of now they are smog exempt here in Califorina.
Speaking of 'Smog Nazis', how can we, as a group of diesel engine hot-rodders, get power and be somewhat clean burning?
Is that possible?
What were/are the smog limitations set by the EPA for our years of Vehicles?
Can we inject water/meth or propane for a cleaner exhaust? Or what about post turbo injection of something into the exhaust system? water or the eurea stuff?
Gale Banks is a huge proponent for the diesel tuner industry to focus on 'clean tuning'. Maybe we should start a thread somewhere exploring this......
RE: Turbo? - ForcedInduction - 07-09-2009
(07-09-2009, 08:35 PM)Telecommbrkr What were/are the smog limitations set by the EPA for our years of Vehicles?Places that do actually check usually have nothing more than a 20% opacity limit. 20% is a lot of smoke and would be hard not to notice. My 300D got 36% before I swapped the injection pump.
Quote:Can we inject water/meth or propane for a cleaner exhaust? Or what about post turbo injection of something into the exhaust system? water or the eurea stuff?Water just cools the combustion. Propane will make the A/F ratio even more rich.
Quote:Gale Banks is a huge proponent for the diesel tuner industry to focus on 'clean tuning'.Thats because most of his products don't do anything but slightly increase airflow.
RE: Turbo? - Telecommbrkr - 07-09-2009
Doesn't the propane help to burn the last 25/15% of unburnt fuel in the combustion process ineficiency of our diesel engines?
RE: Turbo? - ForcedInduction - 07-09-2009
Nope. Its just an extra fuel. All the diesel burns in normal combustion when there is enough air, there isn't 15/25% left to burn.
RE: Turbo? - Motorhead - 07-09-2009
I'm all for a clean burning diesel and F.I. probably knows how to keep one from blowing too much smoke but I don't think a OM617 that is all turned up is going to conform all the time, I'm going to run with this exempt vehicle for now until they decide to attack the old Merc's.
RE: Turbo? - Telecommbrkr - 07-10-2009
(07-09-2009, 08:59 PM)ForcedInduction Nope. Its just an extra fuel. All the diesel burns in normal combustion when there is enough air, there isn't 15/25% left to burn.
So, theoretically, as long as you provide enough air you can keep adding fuel till it smokes then back off the fuel, and be a non-smoker with lots of power?
Why is it then, the diesel drag-racers got these huuuuge turbos and blow black smoke like a coal-fired steam engine? They need bigger turbos? Better fuel management? Correct me if I am wrong but smoke=unburnt fuel right?
I am trying to get a good depth of an understanding to this diesel tuning, I want gobs of power and no smoke. Period
RE: Turbo? - ForcedInduction - 07-10-2009
(07-10-2009, 12:15 AM)Telecommbrkr So, theoretically, as long as you provide enough air you can keep adding fuel till it smokes then back off the fuel, and be a non-smoker with lots of power?Yep. The uni-flow 2-valve head is what really restricts the 617's power. The 606 is usually the choice of the Finns because its 4 valve cross flow head can flow far more air. Even the non-turbo 606 makes as much power as a 617a.
There is a guy running 300hp out of his 2.0L CDI on MBWorld but he can't make any more natural (no nitrous) power than that because his engine just won't flow any more air. ( http://www.mbworld.org/forums/diesel-forum/236318-e320-cdi-mod.html )
Quote:Why is it then, the diesel drag-racers got these huuuuge turbos and blow black smoke like a coal-fired steam engine? They need bigger turbos? Better fuel management? Correct me if I am wrong but smoke=unburnt fuel right?Poor tuning and trying to show off; To a lot of people lots of black smoke is really cool and you can make lots of power by dumping in lots of fuel. I've seen 800+hp pickups with no smoke at all, so there really isn't a good reason to belch black smoke (except to piss off tailgaters).
RE: Turbo? - tomnik - 07-10-2009
Hi,
avoiding excessive smoke in combination with performance gains is my goal.
I have to because of strict emissions regulation in Germany.
My theory is (besides providing more air) to reduce the injection duration by using larger custom elements. But progress in fabrication is very slow at the moment.
I even try to get an individual emission check to jump into a better emission class to help the diesel-benz community here in Germany. But the way is hard and stony.
Tom
RE: Turbo? - Telecommbrkr - 07-10-2009
Good work tomnik, let us know what kind of numbers you get when you go for testing.
What pump are you making elements for?
(07-10-2009, 12:36 AM)ForcedInduction The uni-flow 2-valve head is what really restricts the 617's power. The 606 is usually the choice of the Finns because its 4 valve cross flow head can flow far more air. Even the non-turbo 606 makes as much power as a 617a.
There is a guy running 300hp out of his 2.0L CDI on MBWorld but he can't make any more natural (no nitrous) power than that because his engine just won't flow any more air. ( http://www.mbworld.org/forums/diesel-forum/236318-e320-cdi-mod.html )
Good thing we got Motorhead running some flow numbers. Once we get all the number we can calculate max power. I'd like to port out one of these heads, just to see what you could get it to do. It was said in some other thread when porting was mentioned that MB had specially engineered the airflow patterns etc, etc, well looking at the pics Motorhead put up of the inside of the intake with all the casting rubble and shift flaws, there doesn't seem to be any great detail there. Buuut, it does show that there is lots of room for improvements!
(07-10-2009, 12:36 AM)ForcedInduction Poor tuning and trying to show off; To a lot of people lots of black smoke is really cool and you can make lots of power by dumping in lots of fuel. I've seen 800+hp pickups with no smoke at all, so there really isn't a good reason to belch black smoke (except to piss off tailgaters).
These guys are dumb
RE: Turbo? - tomnik - 07-10-2009
(07-10-2009, 02:04 AM)Telecommbrkr Good work tomnik, let us know what kind of numbers you get when you go for testing.
What pump are you making elements for?
6.5 mm for MW
7.5 mm for M
both are calculated and designed with a weaker control edge to avoid overfueling compared to standard 5.5
Things go slow but still some progress. MW 6.5mm will be first to be ready.
Tom
RE: Turbo? - Rudolf_Diesel - 07-10-2009
Quote:Gale Banks is a huge proponent for the diesel tuner industry to focus on 'clean tuning'. Maybe we should start a thread somewhere exploring this......
My opinion is that he is a factor for CA now starting "smog" checks for diesels...He is a hugh proponent for his smokeless power, his diesel drag truck regularly runs at the local drag strip in Irwindale...lots of Nitrous to stem the smoke...He was in many closed door meetings with CARB and Cal EPA. "Buy my products, they produce power and no smoke...blah, blah, blah..."
My truck smokes a bit on take off with the extreme setting, but when the air catches up it disappears, I only wish my 300SD was as fast as it is...I have left many people with their mouth open when my 8500 lb. truck leaves in the dust.
RE: Turbo? - winmutt - 07-10-2009
(07-10-2009, 05:34 AM)tomnik 6.5 mm for MW
7.5 mm for M
both are calculated and designed with a weaker control edge to avoid overfueling compared to standard 5.5
Things go slow but still some progress. MW 6.5mm will be first to be ready.
Tom
How much for a set of the 6.5 for MW?
RE: Turbo? - tomnik - 07-11-2009
(07-10-2009, 09:23 AM)winmutt How much for a set of the 6.5 for MW?
Not clear yet. Compared to the Holly elements I already made (approx. 65 EUR/each) I have modified the supply bore in the element cylinder. This is also the point where things got stuck right now. If I push the guy too hard the price (for making the bore) will increase. Max. it could be + 10 EUR.
It was promised for this week but still nothing. Monday I will be there again...
Tom
RE: Turbo? - benztek - 07-11-2009
The diesel drag racers roll all the coal for a reason. If you watch even a well tuned cummins or powerstroke you will see them rolling black smoke on the line before they fully stage. At this point they are trying to get the turbo to light. Once the turbo lights you will see the smoke turn to more of a haze.
RE: Turbo? - Motorhead - 07-11-2009
The other side of the race shop where I work is a complete CNC shop and we prototype many things, if a part does not exist for a project we build it so I was thinking if the elements are hard to come by than I need to get my hands on one and see if we could wip a few out.
RE: Turbo? - Rudolf_Diesel - 07-12-2009
(07-11-2009, 11:25 PM)Motorhead The other side of the race shop where I work is a complete CNC shop and we prototype many things, if a part does not exist for a project we build it so I was thinking if the elements are hard to come by than I need to get my hands on one and see if we could wip a few out.
I went to a local shop and they told me they could put 8mm elements in the pump, although it has been said they are too big...They are quite expensive $300-$400 each. I found a company in china that makes them, looks to be $3-$5 each, could be a typo.
I just bought an IP and plan on tearing it apart to see what I can do to it. The only issue I see is for myself to machine the grooves, but a competent machine shop could do it on a CNC.
RE: Turbo? - winmutt - 07-13-2009
(07-12-2009, 09:41 AM)Rudolf_Diesel(07-11-2009, 11:25 PM)Motorhead The other side of the race shop where I work is a complete CNC shop and we prototype many things, if a part does not exist for a project we build it so I was thinking if the elements are hard to come by than I need to get my hands on one and see if we could wip a few out.
I went to a local shop and they told me they could put 8mm elements in the pump, although it has been said they are too big...They are quite expensive $300-$400 each. I found a company in china that makes them, looks to be $3-$5 each, could be a typo.
I just bought an IP and plan on tearing it apart to see what I can do to it. The only issue I see is for myself to machine the grooves, but a competent machine shop could do it on a CNC.
That is way to much. I found the 8mm in Turkey for ~100 euro each. The chinese companies do no actively make this product, they will want a 1000 count order minimally. If you find other wise let us know! Also the 8mm have a different stroke, did the local shop say anything about that? Did you tell them about the 8mm elements or did they already know?
RE: Turbo? - winmutt - 07-13-2009
(07-11-2009, 07:34 AM)benztek The diesel drag racers roll all the coal for a reason. If you watch even a well tuned cummins or powerstroke you will see them rolling black smoke on the line before they fully stage. At this point they are trying to get the turbo to light. Once the turbo lights you will see the smoke turn to more of a haze.
Tomnik has issues to deal with like TUV. Personally I would prefer to burn much cleaner than I do now.
RE: Turbo? - tomnik - 07-13-2009
basically it should be possible to burn clean even with increased performance, it is the challenge to get our old diesels cleaner and stronger.
Remember I found after market 8mm MW elements for < 50 EUR/each in the 8mm MW thread. This died when s.o. wanted to get the elements from China.
Tom
RE: Turbo? - Rudolf_Diesel - 07-13-2009
(07-13-2009, 09:06 AM)winmutt(07-12-2009, 09:41 AM)Rudolf_Diesel(07-11-2009, 11:25 PM)Motorhead The other side of the race shop where I work is a complete CNC shop and we prototype many things, if a part does not exist for a project we build it so I was thinking if the elements are hard to come by than I need to get my hands on one and see if we could wip a few out.
I went to a local shop and they told me they could put 8mm elements in the pump, although it has been said they are too big...They are quite expensive $300-$400 each. I found a company in china that makes them, looks to be $3-$5 each, could be a typo.
I just bought an IP and plan on tearing it apart to see what I can do to it. The only issue I see is for myself to machine the grooves, but a competent machine shop could do it on a CNC.
That is way to much. I found the 8mm in Turkey for ~100 euro each. The chinese companies do no actively make this product, they will want a 1000 count order minimally. If you find other wise let us know! Also the 8mm have a different stroke, did the local shop say anything about that? Did you tell them about the 8mm elements or did they already know?
I asked the shop if they could put the 8mm elements in the pump, the tech said they could do it and would rebuild the pump and calibrate it too. They didn't say antthing about the stroke, but he did mention he has had a few calls regarding the same type of mod.
Couldn't we contact the Chinese and give them specs for a 6.5mm or 7mm with the proper stroke specs and do a group buy?
RE: Turbo? - ForcedInduction - 07-13-2009
Personally, I'd rather order the €45 7mm elements from a known source like Myna than risk buying Chinese.
You'll be paying $1000-1300 for a rebuilt injection pump anyways so $1500 for Myna's specialized treatment isn't a bad deal. Most shops won't do just a plunger swap, especially on the M-Pump since the cam has to be removed.
RE: Turbo? - Motorhead - 07-13-2009
So is Myna the way to go right now, what do they do to the MW and what amount of power potential will it have? So what about an M pump with the Myna treatment, will it be even better?
RE: Turbo? - ForcedInduction - 07-14-2009
Myna doesn't do MW pumps, just the M.
Except for Tom's custom 6mm elements, the best options right now for an MW are to remove the rack limiter and turn up the torque capsule a little. That will get it about 145hp, but nobody has confirmed that on the dyno yet.
RE: Turbo? - tomnik - 07-14-2009
(07-13-2009, 05:21 PM)ForcedInduction Personally, I'd rather order the €45 7mm elements from a known source like Myna than risk buying Chinese.
Ask them where they get the elements from!
Tom
RE: Turbo? - ForcedInduction - 07-14-2009
(07-14-2009, 09:08 AM)tomnik Ask them where they get the elements from!
I'm sure they consider that information a "trade secret".
RE: Turbo? - tomnik - 07-14-2009
(07-14-2009, 09:11 AM)ForcedInduction I'm sure they consider that information a "trade secret".
Of course, but you know that I bought some elements from them directly in Finland so no more secret for me.
Tom
RE: Turbo? - Motorhead - 07-14-2009
How do they install, do you use new sleeves or take the stock ones out to size?
RE: Turbo? - tomnik - 07-16-2009
(07-14-2009, 08:00 PM)Motorhead How do they install, do you use new sleeves or take the stock ones out to size?
What do you mean by sleeves?
For such a work all parts are checked, wear parts/sealings are replaced.
Tom