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+--- Thread: Help me build my wagon w123/617-95X (/showthread.php?tid=5140)
Help me build my wagon w123/617-95X - MTUPower - 12-04-2013
Help me build my car. I've already got and installed a Myna pump with the stock Garret turbo. Process coated w116 exhaust manifold the one with no egr. No egr intake as well, stock. I have a long runner intake from a w115 I could use. I have a small blackstone A/A intercooler right atop the turbo plumbed with fresh air from the stock air intake location. Stock exhaust save the rear muffler delete.
My tranny as it is now will slip in the 1/2 and 2/3 shifts when the myna is turned to full fuel. Should I install stronger springs from the tranny spring kit?
What turbo should I use; be specific. What IC should I use and how would you plumb it? Liquid injection? How much and where/with what pump and size?
I don't want alot of smoke at idle or moderate acceleration.
Give me your ideas on building a 617-95X little monster wagon.
RE: Help me build my wagon w123/617-95X - MFSuper90 - 12-05-2013
Wow sweet sounding car!
If I was going to do it, I would run a Holset Super hx30 Like EDH is doing on his 5cyl build. Provide pretty fast spool up and able to boost clear to 30-35psi efficiently.
I would also implement Water/Meth injection, you want the nozzle as close to the outlet of the turbo as possible, but not before the intercooler. Devil's own makes a very nice pump, nozzles, and lines for a reasonable price.
As far as intercoolers and Trans go, I have no clue on those :p
RE: Help me build my wagon w123/617-95X - giezy - 12-05-2013
im listening! just bought a 84 123 wagon1
RE: Help me build my wagon w123/617-95X - raysorenson - 12-05-2013
Raising line pressure with stiffer springs will help but light throttle shifts may end up being too harsh for your taste. It just depends. If it's already slipping, I would replace clutches and bands too.
An underhood IC is a problem and may be worse than no IC. The W123 W/617 has room up front for an air/air IC. If you dump the condenser then you've got more room. Fit the biggest one you can get.
RE: Help me build my wagon w123/617-95X - willbhere4u - 12-05-2013
I would do the transmission shift kit before any thing else. You may also be able to adjustment the line pressure. By increasing line pressure it will help stop it from slipping. On the older transmissions line pressure was externally adjusted by vacuum going to a valve on top of the injection pump with vacuum it shifts smooth less line pressure! with out vacuum it shifted harder by increasing line pressure. The valve on the injection pump varies the amount of vacuum to act like the vacuum on a gas engine ie no vacuum at full throttle. full vacuum at idle. Partial vacuum while cruising. since the vacuum pump on a diesel create constant vacuum
RE: Help me build my wagon w123/617-95X - raysorenson - 12-05-2013
Will, that's a throttle pressure adjustment you've described. Throttle pressure and governor pressure influence line pressure in some hydraulic circuits to make a harder shift, but the real power holding gains come from increasing spring pressure on the main line pressure control valve.
RE: Help me build my wagon w123/617-95X - MTUPower - 12-05-2013
(12-05-2013, 12:51 PM)raysorenson Raising line pressure with stiffer springs will help but light throttle shifts may end up being too harsh for your taste. It just depends. If it's already slipping, I would replace clutches and bands too.
An underhood IC is a problem and may be worse than no IC. The W123 W/617 has room up front for an air/air IC. If you dump the condenser then you've got more room. Fit the biggest one you can get.
Here's my thread about the car from a few years back. It's got pics of the engine and it's underhood IC.
My transmission was perfect with the modified stock IP- and quite fast. However when I installed the Myna pump it shifted like crap. Very hard on some unless I really floored it. Turns out I had very little vacuum going to the tranny. The pump's fuel delivery is adjustable and when adjusted to full power no matter what I did the flare/slipping on the 1/2 and 2/3 was bad. I drove the car like that for a bit then dialed back the fuel amount. It still shifted like crap. New vacuum work and it shifts better. In the mean time it (the tranny) started leaking- and got worse. Now it shifts okay (on the lowest fuel delivery setting on the IP) but leaks bad. It's the front seal. It's got to come down and re-installed after fixing the leak. My indie will do this- but while its out of the car what should I do? Install the stronger springs? Change the clutch packs? Install a high stall converter? I don't know much about transmissions.
RE: Help me build my wagon w123/617-95X - raysorenson - 12-05-2013
Throttle pressure increases as you depress the accelerator pedal. Since the engine is making more torque, the increase in throttle pressure makes the friction materials apply with more force, preventing the trans from slipping. It doesn't feel like the trans is shifting harder at heavy throttle when throttle pressure is adjusted right because the engine is making enough torque for the various clutches and/or bands involved in a particular shift to slip just a little before the trans locks into gear. Adjusting the throttle pressure higher will make your trans shift harder at light throttle. At WOT, however, there will be little to no difference in shift firmness since throttle pressure is supposed to be high. This is where a heavier line pressure spring comes in.
The problem with just installing a heavier spring on the main pressure control valve is that it increases pressure globally. All pressures will be higher and all shifts will be firmer. A shift kit that can maintain light throttle smoothness with the required full throttle firmness requires a lot of engineering and possibly tailoring to a specific setup. Expect some harshness. I think rough shifting auto trannies are sporty and fun, up to a point. When they start barking tires when you're looking for a spot in a parking lot, I draw the line. The "superior transmission" shift kit is the only one I know of for the 722.
I don't know that you can get a higher stall TC. If you've got a late '84 then you've got the best O.E. setup you can get. A higher stall TC is nice when you've got a significantly larger turbo with more lag.
RE: Help me build my wagon w123/617-95X - MTUPower - 12-05-2013
^^^^^^^
The superior shift kit is what I have in my garage. I had really hard shifts until I swapped IP parts that gave me more vacuum. I had gotten used to it so I was manually shifting up and down to avoid those. I would like to avoid flare and slipping if I have the max fuel setting on the Myna. I think I'll have to balance that with my desire to avoid huge smoke output when I plant my right foot firmly.
I super appreciate your knowledge and information about the tranny because without a properly set transmission huge power output is worthless.
RE: Help me build my wagon w123/617-95X - 300SD_KY - 12-05-2013
MTUPower ... like your project. With a build like yours, can a Group Buy be far behind for the 617 Turbo?
Custom cam ...
Bigger pump ...
Bigger turbo ...
Custom rods ...
Custom pistons ...
- - - - - - - - - -
minty 1979 300SD with 16" vintage AMG wheels + Z-speed rated tires + Monark injectors + rebuilt turbo + new _ _ _ _ (you fill in the blank: seals, blah blah blah)
RE: Help me build my wagon w123/617-95X - MTUPower - 12-06-2013
(12-05-2013, 08:57 AM)MFSuper90 Wow sweet sounding car!Do you have more info on the "devils own"? What pump? What amount of liquid injected? Is there a reason you cannot have distilled water going thru the IC with meth/water injected closer to each cylinder?
If I was going to do it, I would run a Holset Super hx30 Like EDH is doing on his 5cyl build. Provide pretty fast spool up and able to boost clear to 30-35psi efficiently.
I would also implement Water/Meth injection, you want the nozzle as close to the outlet of the turbo as possible, but not before the intercooler. Devil's own makes a very nice pump, nozzles, and lines for a reasonable price. ...
Do you have a link to EDH's build?
THANK YOU!
RE: Help me build my wagon w123/617-95X - MFSuper90 - 12-06-2013
EDH build
Devils Own website
I wouldn't put the w/m close to the ports, the farther away the more time it has to cool the air and also atomize and mix.
I think the devils own site has a calculator for nozzle size and their 200psi pump would work well.
I don't know specifically why you shouldn't run it pre intercooler, it's what I've always been told. I suppose water condensing or something. Hopefully someone else can chime in that can explain it better than me.
RE: Help me build my wagon w123/617-95X - MTUPower - 12-09-2013
(12-05-2013, 07:27 PM)raysorenson Throttle pressure increases as you depress the accelerator pedal. Since the engine is making more torque, the increase in throttle pressure makes the friction materials apply with more force, preventing the trans from slipping. It doesn't feel like the trans is shifting harder at heavy throttle when throttle pressure is adjusted right because the engine is making enough torque for the various clutches and/or bands involved in a particular shift to slip just a little before the trans locks into gear. Adjusting the throttle pressure higher will make your trans shift harder at light throttle. At WOT, however, there will be little to no difference in shift firmness since throttle pressure is supposed to be high. This is where a heavier line pressure spring comes in.Would it be better/cheaper(?) to replace the tranny with a rebuilt unit that has newer clutches and bands or just hope for the best and put shift kit springs in? Hypothetically of course. I'm not made of money...
The problem with just installing a heavier spring on the main pressure control valve is that it increases pressure globally. All pressures will be higher and all shifts will be firmer. A shift kit that can maintain light throttle smoothness with the required full throttle firmness requires a lot of engineering and possibly tailoring to a specific setup. Expect some harshness. I think rough shifting auto trannies are sporty and fun, up to a point. When they start barking tires when you're looking for a spot in a parking lot, I draw the line. The "superior transmission" shift kit is the only one I know of for the 722.
I don't know that you can get a higher stall TC. If you've got a late '84 then you've got the best O.E. setup you can get. A higher stall TC is nice when you've got a significantly larger turbo with more lag.
RE: Help me build my wagon w123/617-95X - raysorenson - 12-09-2013
Hope for the best I guess. Clutches and bands are typically dirt cheap for old trannys. Labor and knowledge is what costs.
RE: Help me build my wagon w123/617-95X - Simpler=Better - 12-10-2013
Run it until it breaks, then put something bigger in
