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+--- Thread: fast advice please (/showthread.php?tid=5207)
fast advice please - carlitosgy6 - 12-25-2013
Hi, i live in florida and i travel for vacation to chicago, this morning was at 15 degrees, it took me like 15 minutes to make the om 617 engine start, i did like 12 glow plug cycles without any luck, i had to jump the glow plug relay like for 3 minutes after all those tries to make it run, after that was working fine, this month i installed a new set of glow plugs bosch brand, valve calibration, liqui moly cleaning 2 cans, is working the best of all times doing 33 mpg highway, i dont have a way of heating the block, i cant do a lot mechanic work now i just need a way to make it start probably at 10 or 15 under 0, can i use starting fluid? I think i cant
RE: fast advice please - MFSuper90 - 12-25-2013
I definitely wouldn't use starting fluid, flammable liquid going into red hot glow plugs can cause a premature boom. My car starts instantly at single digit temperatures.
Heres a few things to check, are your glow plugs actually working? for sure? How about timing? Fast timing causes hard starts.
Is your compression alright?
RE: fast advice please - Volker407 - 12-25-2013
(12-25-2013, 05:47 PM)carlitosgy6 Hi, i live in florida and i travel for vacation to chicago.......Do you have winter-diesel or still summer-diesel in your tank or a mixture of it?
If still summer-diesel or semi-winter-diesel add 20% gasoline to your tank.
summer-diesel clogs filters already at -2° Celcius
semi-winter-diesel clogs filters already at around -12° Celcius.
winter-diesel clogs filters at around -24° Celcius.
Quote:.... this month..... liqui moly cleaning 2 cans....
Is your fuel prefilter free of air bubbles?
Is your main fuel filter not clogged for sure? After 2 cans liqui moly cleaning you really should change it anyway!
Gruß
Volker
RE: fast advice please - carlitosgy6 - 12-25-2013
(12-25-2013, 06:05 PM)MFSuper90 I definitely wouldn't use starting fluid, flammable liquid going into red hot glow plugs can cause a premature boom. My car starts instantly at single digit temperatures.The glow plugs are working, what i can say is when i setup that pump i set it up at 27 degrees before, so its advanced, remember im far from my shop, i have regular tools, maybe i can retard the pump by eye but definitely not by drip, maybe i could try but i hate this weather
Heres a few things to check, are your glow plugs actually working? for sure? How about timing? Fast timing causes hard starts.
Is your compression alright?
(12-25-2013, 06:05 PM)MFSuper90 I definitely wouldn't use starting fluid, flammable liquid going into red hot glow plugs can cause a premature boom. My car starts instantly at single digit temperatures.The
Heres a few things to check, are your glow plugs actually working? for sure? How about timing? Fast timing causes hard starts.
Is your compression alright?
(12-25-2013, 07:01 PM)Volker407(12-25-2013, 05:47 PM)carlitosgy6 Hi, i live in florida and i travel for vacation to chicago.......Do you have winter-diesel or still summer-diesel in your tank or a mixture of it?
If still summer-diesel or semi-winter-diesel add 20% gasoline to your tank.
summer-diesel clogs filters already at -2° Celcius
semi-winter-diesel clogs filters already at around -12° Celcius.
winter-diesel clogs filters at around -24° Celcius.
Quote:.... this month..... liqui moly cleaning 2 cans....
Is your fuel prefilter free of air bubbles?
Is your main fuel filter not clogged for sure? After 2 cans liqui moly cleaning you really should change it anyway!
Gruß
Volker
Yes i changed the filters, all of them, i have no air in the lines, i was using red dye diesel from Florida, i filled up on north Georgia, don't know what kind of diesel they had, what i know is that i need to fill up again and im already on Chicago, i have to ask for it or they always have that diesel available?, after it started it runs nice, full of power and idling normally
RE: fast advice please - larsalan - 12-25-2013
Up north all the pumps ought to be switched over to the winter blend. The first start of the day is always the hardest.
Do you have a block heater? A nice strong battery and maybe a second one to help jump it?
Need to get that cranking speed up to help fire it.
RE: fast advice please - carlitosgy6 - 12-25-2013
My truck has 2 batteries, one is the stock Ranger one, the other a big battery like the one that are used on trucks, tomorrow i will heat the pump, lines, injectors before cranking it, but i will check that timing, my worry is if this happened to me at 20 degrees i don't want to think what will happen at sub zero temps
RE: fast advice please - larsalan - 12-26-2013
Mine fires a hell of a lot better on a cold morning after an hour or more of the block heater.
RE: fast advice please - carlitosgy6 - 12-26-2013
Yes i have one but it doesn't have a harness, anyways i dont have nowhere to plug it in on the street
RE: fast advice please - erling66 - 12-26-2013
(12-25-2013, 07:01 PM)Volker407 Do you have winter-diesel or still summer-diesel in your tank or a mixture of it?How much gasoline can you add to summer diesel? and what happens if you get to much? will you burn up the injectors?
If still summer-diesel or semi-winter-diesel add 20% gasoline to your tank.
RE: fast advice please - DiseaselWeasel - 12-26-2013
(12-25-2013, 07:10 PM)carlitosgy6 The glow plugs are working,
Thin pencil type plugs? They may just glow at the back, in that case readings are fine but reality isn't. Have you had them out and tested with some current?
![[Image: kerze_defekt.jpg]](http://www.mb-w115.de/w124/digicam/gluehkerzen/kerze_defekt.jpg)
They need to glow at the tip for a safe start
My bet is still on the plugs...
RE: fast advice please - cho - 12-26-2013
.
glow plugs (or bad gp relay)....definitely.
RE: fast advice please - Volker407 - 12-26-2013
(12-26-2013, 03:35 AM)erling66(12-25-2013, 07:01 PM)Volker407 Do you have winter-diesel or still summer-diesel in your tank or a mixture of it?How much gasoline can you add to summer diesel? and what happens if you get to much? will you burn up the injectors?
If still summer-diesel or semi-winter-diesel add 20% gasoline to your tank.
Normally I would say RTFM of your car, it´s there for a purpose!
(page 115 in German manual)
Mercedes has printed a chart in the Diesel manual where they explain when you can add how much low-octane gasoline.
Basically it is quite hard to add too much gasoline.
*******************************************************************************
Example from the manual:
1)
Summerdiesel and ambient temperatures between 0° and -10° Celcius you are allowed to add up to 30% of gasoline.
2)
Summerdiesel and ambient temperatures between -10° and -20° Celcius you are allowed to add up to 50% of gasoline.
*******************************************************************************
Dieselfuel nowadays isn´t still the same than it was 20 years ago, so normally half of the amount you are allowed to add is enough to get the engine running.
Modern Dieselfuel also lubricates much worse than 20 years ago. The injectors are not that sensitive to bad lubrication, and Inline Bosch Pumps like the M or MW pumps get their lubrication from engine oil circuit.
But your old injection system will still be happy to see a little 2-stroke oil (0,5-1,0%) every now and then; no matter if you did add gasoline or not.
Nevertheless it will not complain if you don´t add 2-stroke oil.
Many people insist it is better to add petroleum or kerosene instead of gasoline. Petroleum is good because it lubricates better than gasoline but it is more expensive here in Germany, kerosene also works.
Well, an old Mercedes prechamber engine will burn pretty much everything you add to the fuel if there is at least about 60% Diesel remaining in the tank. That´s why I like those engines so much!
A few years ago I drove a mixture of approximately 30% gasoline, 35%WVO and 35% Diesel in a Whirlchamber engine with distributor pump.
I still have the car and no issues until now. It only did knock irregularly with that mixture when engine was cold and in idle for the first 2-3 minutes.
If you add too much gasoline one of the first things that get harmed are the valves and valve seats caused by the higher combustion temperatures.
Note: always talking about Mercedes IDI engines, DI engines are a different world.
Gruß
Volker
RE: fast advice please - Tito - 12-26-2013
I would never ever put gasoline in my diesel. The modern diesel is just so extremely thin and has very little lubrication. Good for common rail injection up to 2000 bar, but not for your old diesel.
The engine oil lubrication is only for the cam/lifter/governor ed. The plunjers rely on diesel lubrication.
I've seen an old buddy of my mixing 25% gasoline and it began to run bad recently. Guess what? The plunjers where worn out.
You could add more oil (I've run on waste engine oil for a year) to get the lubrication back.
I bet my money on a glow problem. However I've had a 617 which has a sticky rack. The rack would seize up and give a hard time starting (30sec full throttle) at minus 15 degrees.
The car I drive now has also problems with starting. It fires up immediately but runs very rough. So rough it sometimes stalls. This is because of the very advance injection timing it currently has.
RE: fast advice please - carlitosgy6 - 12-27-2013
I waited today until almost running out of diesel and filled up with chicago diesel, lets see how it work tomorrow morning, a new bosch glow plug can have this kind of issues? I tested for voltage on all plugs and they have, its weird becausethis morning i jumped the glow plugs for 5 minutes then cranked the engine for like a minute non stop, slowly taking up speed shaking like crazy until suddenly came to life
RE: fast advice please - larsalan - 12-27-2013
nice.
That cranking speed is a great part of the start vrs no start issue. More batteries == more better.
Another help maybe popping the hood and manually pumping the lift pump for a bit while glowing the plugs a few rounds. Block heater is a good help too but, if you have no outlet then I guess that's out of the question.
RE: fast advice please - cho - 12-27-2013
(12-27-2013, 01:33 AM)carlitosgy6 I waited today until almost running out of diesel and filled up with chicago diesel, lets see how it work tomorrow morning, a new bosch glow plug can have this kind of issues? I tested for voltage on all plugs and they have, its weird becausethis morning i jumped the glow plugs for 5 minutes then cranked the engine for like a minute non stop, slowly taking up speed shaking like crazy until suddenly came to life
especially new glow plug!
you have to manually test those before plunging in.....glow the tip red.
ohm test imho is better option than voltage.
btw....during last 30 winters every 200,240 and 300D in my town
has swallowed 10% gasoline in the tank.
.
RE: fast advice please - erling66 - 12-27-2013
I used to drive 617 and my experience is that if it is hard to start when cold, it is the compression. When cranking a lot, you create friction heat and eventually it will start. You can use starting fluid, but you can also try any penetrating fluid(wd40) but find a can that gives a nice mist. Putting the injection timing closer to zero can also help, compression is higher and warmer up there.
Volker, thank you for useful advise
I had to google "RTFM" and it made me laugh
No such manual here in Norway, and if you ask in a Mercedes workshop, they will look at you as if you came from a different planet.Here I get gasoline/diesel mix for free(people use the wrong pump and a workshop has to clean the tank) I weigh the fuel to find out how much gasoline or diesel. Then I mix this "mix" with WVO. Now I use ca 20% gasoline, ca 20% diesel and 60% WVO, but will try more gasoline now that it gets colder.
RE: fast advice please - cho - 12-27-2013
(12-26-2013, 01:28 PM)Tito I would never ever put gasoline in my diesel.
You could add more oil (I've run on waste engine oil for a year) to get the lubrication back.
dont get me wrong but but we are on totally opposite side here
I would always add up to 10% gasoline/petroleum and never
used oil (even filtered).
2 stroke? I would and I do.
.
RE: fast advice please - john - 12-30-2013
i have ran a 617 on almost pure hydraulic oil in the summer! A guy that had that car before me drove on cookingoil when the supermarket had a sale
Petroleum in the diesel....
I think i am on the No gasoline side here. How does that affect the bacteria in the tank issue? better or worse?
RE: fast advice please - Simpler=Better - 12-31-2013
Glow plugs
Valve adjustment
Antigel in with your fuel
Clean spin-on filter
No fuel line leaks (aka air leaks into fuel lines)
Battery and clean connections to get 500rpm
"purple wire mod" on the glowplug box if you want to make long glows easier
Proper start procedure-glow full minute, pump the pedal twice, and floor it while cranking. Once it starts to catch let off the pedal and only give it what it needs to idle at ~800rpm
RE: fast advice please - erling66 - 12-31-2013
(12-31-2013, 11:44 AM)Simpler=Better Proper start procedure-glow full minute, pump the pedal twice, and floor it while cranking.
Why pump the pedal?
RE: fast advice please - Simpler=Better - 12-31-2013
(12-31-2013, 11:48 AM)erling66(12-31-2013, 11:44 AM)Simpler=Better Proper start procedure-glow full minute, pump the pedal twice, and floor it while cranking.
Why pump the pedal?
My theory is that the stuff on the inside might be "sticky" from semi-gelled fuel. Also, it lets you know that the linkage isn't stuck anywhere and will return to idle once you get it started.
RE: fast advice please - cho - 12-31-2013
(12-30-2013, 07:34 PM)john Petroleum in the diesel....
no tank has gone epidemic around me,...so I suppose it is better
.
RE: fast advice please - Hercules - 01-02-2014
Hi, What weight engine oil is being used? Need to use a lighter weight in winter time if temps drop to freezing.Reason,pump can not move into start mode if oil is to heavy. (engine will almost start) Try 10-30weight oil. Good luck.
RE: fast advice please - carlitosgy6 - 01-08-2014
i changed the oil to 1o w 30,cranked faster but took almost the same time to start,,then i checked the glow plugs one by one and they got red very fast on the tip,i was running winter diesel,now im in Florida so i can do all the needed checks,compression is between 350-370 psi,but timing is 28 before,i think thats the problem,is better to leave it like that on florida?is better on mpg? on the trip from fl to tennesse did 33 mpg,going thru the mountains of tennesse it did 30 mpg