+- STD (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std)
+-- Forum: Tuning (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Engine (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Thread: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers (/showthread.php?tid=5216)
Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - Greazzer - 12-27-2013
I am looking for a firm to make a custom head gasket for the purposes of a lower compression ratio. Engine application OM617.952a (turbo). After the back and forth with Cometic., this was their response:
"Unfortunately MLS requires tooling for the needed embossments and that is what we do not have and not able to manufacture this in MLS.
The only way would be to pay an engineering fee. Thanks Chris Workman"
There were discussions on the forum but it looks like Cometic simply does not make them.
Does anyone know any other firms out there ???
Thanks,
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - Duncansport - 12-27-2013
(12-27-2013, 01:02 PM)Greazzer I am looking for a firm to make a custom head gasket for the purposes of a lower compression ratio. Engine application OM617.952a (turbo). After the back and forth with Cometic., this was their response:
"Unfortunately MLS requires tooling for the needed embossments and that is what we do not have and not able to manufacture this in MLS.
The only way would be to pay an engineering fee. Thanks Chris Workman"
There were discussions on the forum but it looks like Cometic simply does not make them.
Does anyone know any other firms out there ???
Thanks,
Your best bet would be a solid copper gasket cut to your thickness. http://www.headgasket.com/
I must say that lowering compression via head spacing isn't a great idea..... But all the best of luck.
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - Greazzer - 12-27-2013
Here's my most recent response from Cometic: "The engineering/tooling cost for our new diesel design MLX head gasket would be $7,000.00 and take 3-4 weeks to complete. As for other options, i could do copper and not sure of anybody else out there."
Yikes on price !!!!!!!
Anyone out there ever just use copper ???
Let me know, Thanks.
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - willbhere4u - 12-27-2013
custom connecting rods made to spec for lower compression ratio and strength. and would be a lot cheaper and stronger two birds one stone kind of thing. The biggest problem with thicker head gaskets is better chance to leak or blow out under higher boost.
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - Duncansport - 12-27-2013
Can i ask why your trying to lower the compression? Is there a 1000HP 617 in production here?
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - Mark_M - 12-27-2013
Never used a copper gasket on a diesel but I have on tuned V8 engines and they work really well. They shouldn't be too expensive either especially these days with the high number of water jet or laser cutting machines on the go.
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - MFSuper90 - 12-28-2013
I'm not a fan of full copper gaskets. I've had them leak to many times on older Diesel engines in tractors, most times seeping a little water or compression
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - Greazzer - 12-28-2013
(12-27-2013, 06:27 PM)Duncansport Can i ask why your trying to lower the compression? Is there a 1000HP 617 in production here?
No, not 1000 HP, but I got one of Goran's mod'd pumps, et cet., and I need to lower the compression just a little. Engine is being rebuilt -- actually, it has been at the machine shop for over 1 year and now it's moving along so I am anticipating completion pretty soon. This is the time to make this mod since it's a total rebuild.
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - Duncansport - 12-28-2013
(12-28-2013, 09:19 AM)Greazzer(12-27-2013, 06:27 PM)Duncansport Can i ask why your trying to lower the compression? Is there a 1000HP 617 in production here?
No, not 1000 HP, but I got one of Goran's mod'd pumps, et cet., and I need to lower the compression just a little. Engine is being rebuilt -- actually, it has been at the machine shop for over 1 year and now it's moving along so I am anticipating completion pretty soon. This is the time to make this mod since it's a total rebuild.
I'm not sure what the level of your machine shop is, but they should be able to slightly machine the piston dome (or lack there of). This would be the best and safest bet to lower compression. You'll feel the pain of slightly lower compression on cold starts though.
You should have your injector pop pressure upped as well after the pump mod. Raising mine to 155bar made a huge difference in the off boost driveabilty as well as starting.
MFSuper90 makes a good point about copper gaskets. Although tough, they do tend to weep oil, coolant and need "re-torquing". You could o-ring the head for a better seal with copper, but i think that would add a unneeded expense as it's been proven the factory head gaskets work just fine.
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - Volker407 - 12-28-2013
(12-28-2013, 10:53 AM)Duncansport I'm not sure what the level of your machine shop is, but they should be able to slightly machine the piston dome (or lack there of). This would be the best and safest bet to lower compression. You'll feel the pain of slightly lower compression on cold starts though.
I would never let anybody touch the pistons from my OM617A as they are 315,00 EURO a piece....
What are your concerns about a thicker head gasket?
Gruß
Volker
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - MFSuper90 - 12-28-2013
If going for decent horsepower, a custom set of rods is in order. And if you are going that far I would o-ring or fire ring the block while it's at the machine shop. No more head gasket problems.
Are om617a pistons coated? I don't think so, but I'm not sure. If so they definitely shouldn't be milled down.
Here's a super wild (but awesome) idea. Get your pistons fly cut so it drops compression, and you can run a giant cam!
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - Simpler=Better - 12-28-2013
Rods rods rods-they're relatively cheap and the weak point in the 617, followed by the crank/pistons/valves/etc.
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - john - 12-30-2013
Really cant see why dropping compression under oem specs on a diesel is a good idea? If you have decked the block or machined the head i could understand it just to get within oemspecs.
Anyway. Thicker headgasket on a superturbo engine is no good.
Shorter rods
Machine pistons
Machine combusionchamer in head
Stroker crank.
Is there better rods avalibel for 617?
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - Simpler=Better - 12-30-2013
(12-30-2013, 05:20 AM)john Really cant see why dropping compression under oem specs on a diesel is a good idea? If you have decked the block or machined the head i could understand it just to get within oemspecs.
Anyway. Thicker headgasket on a superturbo engine is no good.
Shorter rods
Machine pistons
Machine combusionchamer in head
Stroker crank.
Is there better rods avalibel for 617?
You will need custom rods, but there are about 500 shops in the US that make custom rods all day, every day. Just tell them the dimensions and strength, and you get rods back. If you're lucky a Chevy or Ford rod will be a similar size and could be adapted maybe?
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - Volker407 - 12-30-2013
(12-30-2013, 05:20 AM)john Really cant see why dropping compression under oem specs on a diesel is a good idea?
in Post #8 there is evidence the engine will not run on oem specs ...
(12-28-2013, 09:19 AM)Greazzer No, not 1000 HP, but I got one of Goran's mod'd pumps, et cet., and I need to lower the compression just a little.....
(12-30-2013, 05:20 AM)john Thicker headgasket on a superturbo engine is no good.
What are your concerns about a thicker head gasket?
Gruß
Volker
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - john - 12-30-2013
(12-30-2013, 02:11 PM)Volker407Well, it has troubel holding big numbers with original size. Thicker means more troubel.(12-30-2013, 05:20 AM)john Really cant see why dropping compression under oem specs on a diesel is a good idea?
in Post #8 there is evidence the engine will not run on oem specs ...
(12-28-2013, 09:19 AM)Greazzer No, not 1000 HP, but I got one of Goran's mod'd pumps, et cet., and I need to lower the compression just a little.....
(12-30-2013, 05:20 AM)john Thicker headgasket on a superturbo engine is no good.
What are your concerns about a thicker head gasket?
Gruß
Volker
As for post number 8. It doesnt say anything but its not going to be 1000hp?
Still, why lower compression below oemspecs? Its not a gasoline engine?
Please enlight me i dont understand
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - Volker407 - 12-30-2013
(12-30-2013, 02:26 PM)john Well, it has troubel holding big numbers with original size. Thicker means more troubel.Hi John,
As for post number 8. It doesnt say anything but its not going to be 1000hp?
Still, why lower compression below oemspecs? Its not a gasoline engine?
Please enlight me i dont understand
you are right, Post #8 doesn´t say anything about a specific HP. But if he has a pump made by Goran he most probably wants to exceed OEM specification. At least that was my anticipation.
With a OEM setup of course it doesn´t make sense to have lower compression ratio.
Mercedes did also lower compression ratio on the C111 diesel record car to be able to use more turbo pressure.
The MLS gasket Mark is asking for can hold more pressure than the original OM617A head gasket. Nicely discussed in this thread http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/Thread-Hi-Po-Engine-Rebuilding-Parts-Pieces?pid=27114#pid27114
Gruß
Volker
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - john - 12-30-2013
(12-30-2013, 06:01 PM)Volker407so, go with the mls then!(12-30-2013, 02:26 PM)john Well, it has troubel holding big numbers with original size. Thicker means more troubel.Hi John,
As for post number 8. It doesnt say anything but its not going to be 1000hp?
Still, why lower compression below oemspecs? Its not a gasoline engine?
Please enlight me i dont understand
you are right, Post #8 doesn´t say anything about a specific HP. But if he has a pump made by Goran he most probably wants to exceed OEM specification. At least that was my anticipation.
With a OEM setup of course it doesn´t make sense to have lower compression ratio.
Mercedes did also lower compression ratio on the C111 diesel record car to be able to use more turbo pressure.
The MLS gasket Mark is asking for can hold more pressure than the original OM617A head gasket. Nicely discussed in this thread http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/Thread-Hi-Po-Engine-Rebuilding-Parts-Pieces?pid=27114#pid27114
Gruß
Volker
I can find one reason to make it lower compression, or not really make lower compression but make a bigger combussionchamber. As a result of this you get less compression before the turbo kicks in. This will be compensated by the turbo but i think the lag will be boring and the backend of your benz will be black.
If the problem is that the 617 cant hold the compression and therefor lowering it would be wrong. For every % you lower the static compression you raise the dynamic compression when the turbo kicks in.
Correct me if i am wrong
So if you lower the static compression you will stress your bottomend even more.
This is my theory
and hey! its another reason to go custom rods
Superturbo 617 has the meanest sound out there. You must post many youtubevideos!
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - Duncansport - 12-31-2013
Greazzer-Now that we have all thrown ideas at you.. Have you had any luck contacting that place for a customer copper gasket? [/u]
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - Greazzer - 12-31-2013
(12-31-2013, 10:05 AM)Duncansport Greazzer-Now that we have all thrown ideas at you.. Have you had any luck contacting that place for a customer copper gasket? [/u]
I doubt I will be doing a copper gasket -- too many possible issues. So, I might be stuck with a OEM stock gasket. This is what I got going forward:
Compression Ratio: Engine type: OM617.952 - Turbo Diesel Mercedes 3.0
Construction Year: 1982-1985
Number of cylinders: 5
Bore ø: 90,9 mm
Engine content: 2998 CC
Compression ratio: 21,5 : 1
HP: 125
125 PS (92 kW; 123 hp) @ 4350
245 N·m (181 lb·ft) @ 2400
I was thinking knocking the ratio down to 20:1, no less than that unless there is a great reason, maybe 19.5:1 ...
The C-111-(III) had a reduced compression ratio I am thinking, EG 17.5. I have a mod'd pump from Goran and I bet the pump on the C-111 was mod'd also. I can mod the injectors all day long. I can add an intercooler. I can reduce the parasitic drag off that engine also, EG, no power steering, et cet. I can tweek the turbo application as well. I can most likely get below 3,000 pounds. The only thing that I cannot do is reduce the drag.
So, maybe my thinking is flawed on reducing the compression a smidge. As for "custom made rods" ... where are they cheap again? I got a quote in the $500 bucks a piece range and delivery is sometime by the time my son graduates from HS. I doubt I got over $3,000 in the total engine rebuild, and the engine build is from the ground up, from new sleeves, et cet. I can inject some water to tackle the EGTs, and a couple of other gimicks, but the bottom line is more fuel and more air and less weight and less parasitic drag on the engine. I am stuck for the most part with the drag co-efficient on this car ...
So, is reducing the compression "some" that bad of an idea ???
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - w123love - 12-31-2013
Word on the OEM Gasket. At the race shop I work at, we use OEM gaskets on 1400HP big blocks. Given those are all motor, and just slightly higher compression ratio’s. Typically we only see copper head gaskets on customers engines that they may have assembled themselves.
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - MFSuper90 - 01-01-2014
(12-31-2013, 04:35 PM)w123love Word on the OEM Gasket. At the race shop I work at, we use OEM gaskets on 1400HP big blocks. Given those are all motor, and just slightly higher compression ratio’s. Typically we only see copper head gaskets on customers engines that they may have assembled themselves.
Are they boosted?
Lots of competition engines lower compression so they can run high boost and keep cylinder pressure from skyrocketing. But those are DI, not driven daily, and take two cans of ether to start because of low compression and crazy high timing
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - Simpler=Better - 01-02-2014
GM diesels run 17:1, 19:1 ought to be fine. Can you go to fancy pants gapless rings? Or are the stock rings already gapless?
A bit off topic, but you can decrease the drag without being gaudy. A bellypan, front deflector (tucked back a few inches), weld small wings on the wiper arms, lose the antenna, fender "flares" inside the fenders for less tire-body clearance (or lower the car), nix the passenger mirror, fill in some of the font end gaps, or at least put deflectors behind them.
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - w123love - 01-02-2014
(01-01-2014, 10:31 PM)MFSuper90(12-31-2013, 04:35 PM)w123love Word on the OEM Gasket. At the race shop I work at, we use OEM gaskets on 1400HP big blocks. Given those are all motor, and just slightly higher compression ratio’s. Typically we only see copper head gaskets on customers engines that they may have assembled themselves.
Are they boosted?
Lots of competition engines lower compression so they can run high boost and keep cylinder pressure from skyrocketing. But those are DI, not driven daily, and take two cans of ether to start because of low compression and crazy high timing
No power adders at our shop.
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - john - 01-03-2014
(01-01-2014, 10:31 PM)MFSuper90(12-31-2013, 04:35 PM)w123love Word on the OEM Gasket. At the race shop I work at, we use OEM gaskets on 1400HP big blocks. Given those are all motor, and just slightly higher compression ratio’s. Typically we only see copper head gaskets on customers engines that they may have assembled themselves.
Are they boosted?
Lots of competition engines lower compression so they can run high boost and keep cylinder pressure from skyrocketing. But those are DI, not driven daily, and take two cans of ether to start because of low compression and crazy high timing
Why do you whant to lower compression and then ad i again through the turbo?? no sense on a diesel because it cant knock as a gasoline car does if it gets to high compression before tdc.
I still havent seen any logic explanation why lowering compression is any good on a 617 other then my own, getting bigger combustionchambers.
I dont understand
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - Greazzer - 01-03-2014
Hello,
I guess I need to clarify somewhat for more meaningful posts to my thread.
I have a mod'd pump from Goran, a M pump, with 6mm elements. I have had this pump for about 2 years now, still in the box. I am in the midst of finally getting my engine rebuilt. Attached is the pump's readout. I do not know if it has a fuel limiter or not. Maybe Goran can chime in.
My engine is being rebuilt from the block up. It has new sleeves right now, and I got the rings, bearings, et cet. The crank has been polished last week and the machinist is getting ready to assemble the short block. I have a NEW head, one of the last from Germany, in my possession. So, this is really the time to determine the final issues pertaining to my engine rebuild. I am guessing the rebuild will be completed by the end of January, at least the short block.
I am going to be running more fuel as you can see, in the ball park of 87cc's of fuel vs. the stock pump settings which is in the 50cc's area.
So, pushing more fuel should equal more HP. That brings up an upgraded Turbo. My boost will be a lot higher than the 9-10 PSI which a stock turbo provides. I am guessing almost double what the stock system provides.
So, assuming those are the parameters:
80+CCs of fuel in a mod'd pump
Upgraded Turbo, which is roughly doubling the PSI
Would a stock head gasket work under those conditions for a DD ? Or, to word this alternatively, can a stock head gasket operate under those conditions on a routine basis ?
Not sure why my attachment did not upload, but here it is again or should I say the first time ...
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - MFSuper90 - 01-03-2014
John, we can start a different thread on that if you'd like, don't wanna derail greazzers.
I run about 18-20psi on my stock head gasket, have for 10k+ miles. Never hurt it so far, that's with turned up stock IP, hx30, W/A intercooler, no Alda. I've been contemplating turning up the boost a little more. I ran that little tiny Garrett clear to almost 30psi a couple times, not saying if recommend it though.
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - Volker407 - 01-04-2014
(01-03-2014, 03:36 PM)john Why do you whant to lower compression and then ad i again through the turbo?? no sense on a diesel because it cant knock as a gasoline car does if it gets to high compression before tdc.
I still havent seen any logic explanation why lowering compression is any good on a 617 other then my own, getting bigger combustionchambers.
I dont understand
The idea is to reduce engine overall stress
Example:
stock OM617A has 25bar compression + 50bar combustion pressure = 75bar
modified OM617A has 20bar compression(thicker head gasket) + 60bar combustion pressure (bigger turbo and pump) = 80bar
Engine makes more power but engine stress is kept as low as possible.
Modern diesel engines with 2 turbochargers run on compression ratio of 17:1-16:1
Gruß
Volker
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - Volker407 - 01-04-2014
(01-03-2014, 06:39 PM)Greazzer ........I am going to be running more fuel as you can see, in the ball park of 87cc's of fuel vs. the stock pump settings which is in the 50cc's area.I want to put my 2 cents here.
So, pushing more fuel should equal more HP. That brings up an upgraded Turbo. My boost will be a lot higher than the 9-10 PSI which a stock turbo provides. I am guessing almost double what the stock system provides.
So, assuming those are the parameters:
80+CCs of fuel in a mod'd pump
Upgraded Turbo, which is roughly doubling the PSI
Would a stock head gasket work under those conditions for a DD ? Or, to word this alternatively, can a stock head gasket operate under those conditions on a routine basis ?
A stock OM617A engine runs with a Lambda of 1,5-4,0 throughout the rpm and load range. If we take an average of Lambda 2,0 that means a stock engine with the US pump setting of 115HP*, stock turbo with stock pressure has enough air for 230HP. Reduce that by loss of heat and so on, you still should be able to make 200HP with stock turbo and for example 20psi. Just measured by the amount of air which is available. *(only Europe had the 125HP pump setting due to emission restrictions in US)
The problem is the burning efficiency is so low that the engine only uses a small part of the air available. Remember the OM617A has its roots on the OM621 made in the 1960s.
If you now add a bigger turbo with stock pump it doesn´t really make sense as the engine has to do more work by compressing more air which is still not used with a stock pump.
So the first thing would be to add a nice big intercooler on a stock engine to improve burning efficiency.
Toyota did that on a Landcruiser engine (3,0L displacement, whirlchamber) where I have the exact numbers.
Europe got the 1KZ-TE engine without intercooler and 125HP.
Australia and Africa got the 1KZ-TE engine with intercooler to reduce heat.
The "side effect" is that the engine has 145HP with intercooler.
Both engines have the same pump setting!
I think it is possible to burn 80cc of fuel efficiently in a OM617A but only if you have the right setup like pump, intercooler, nozzles, long runner intake, big flow exhaust, compression ratio,.....
Gruß
Volker
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - Duncansport - 01-04-2014
Just run the stock gasket on freshly machined surfaces. It will be fine. Plenty of DSM, LSx, ect .... Use factory gaskets with major power adders and have no issues. I was running 2.8 bar on my 602 on a factory victor gasket and after tear down the engine still looked great ( other then the TRW valve that separated ). Get this project moving and stick with the basics ( more fuel, more air, cool air, fresh engine ) and you'll have a good start to a powerful reliable Diesel engine .
RE: Any known Head Gasket Suppliers - ronnie - 01-05-2014
I would go to studs and o-ring if really in doupt. I run 16 psi boost on a 616, and no head gasket troubles, or any troubles for that matter, so would agree with those who say just use the stock gasket and be happy.