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+--- Thread: P - pumping a om603/606? (/showthread.php?tid=5314)
P - pumping a om603/606? - mytmousemalibu - 02-04-2014
So i know this topic has come up briefly but without much discussion. Im talking about fitting a P7100 to a 603 or 606. This would not be with out its hurdles but i would like to discuss in detail how, why or why not. My attraction to the idea is this would provide us with a pump that can provide us with enough fuel to rotate the earth. A relatively stock pump could make quite a bit of power, far as i can gather. Now the P pump has a different mounting flange than the M pump so an adapter for that would need to be made and also to mate the drive gear, both i with be looking into. I am going to source a junk pump for mock up. Next issue is rpm. Some may be quick to point out that a Cummins revs alot slower than the MB diesels. However some of these Cummins engines in sled pullers are known to rev over 7k on a modded pump, so they can turn the revs. Now here's where expertise is needed. Is the rpm increase a matter of heavy governor springs and other adjustments? Correct me if I'm wrong but injection pressures are going to be set by injector pop pressure, so that should be ok. So in my mind, i can't see why it wouldn't work unless fine adjustments can't be set. What's your thoughts on this? (besides sending an M pump off to be built, not the premises of the topic)
RE: P - pumping a om603/606? - Duncansport - 02-04-2014
My first thoughts...
1.Would it even fit, length between the block and filter housing. Sure remote filter could be made to work.
2.Cam profile is designed for a DI engine not a IDI
3.P7100's pump have a major problem (when modded) controlling fuel at low loads (lots of smoke)
And finally the main question here is why? A used rebuild-able p7100 are a few hundred $$'s then you still need to do all the "work" for use on a OM60x. Basically i think it could be made to work but it would only sever as a race pump.
RE: P - pumping a om603/606? - MFSuper90 - 02-04-2014
In my opinion, it's just too large. Could it be done? I believe so. But by the one you get it mounted, get your lines bent, figure out how to time it (p7100 don't have slots to time, just tapered shaft) then go through with getting it sent away to put out enough fuel that it will idle correctly and run decent I bet you will have over $2000 in it. Which is more than it cost to ship an m-pump overseas and back to get one done right.
Have you ever actually seen a cummins turn 7k? I know I haven't, even the modified I've seen only run about 6k. That with extreme work done to the pump, like thousands of dollars worth of work. A stock 12mm p7100 can put out over 500cc. I don't think it's possible to even burn that much fuel in a 3.0l engine. Dieselmeken's big pumps only put out 250cc if I remember right. And most people can't burn that.
If you want to try it, I say go for it!
I'm always game to see new things, but it just doesn't seem reasonable
RE: P - pumping a om603/606? - Simpler=Better - 02-04-2014
I was under the impression that single-element pumps don't like high revs, which is why the 6xx engines have inline pumps
RE: P - pumping a om603/606? - mytmousemalibu - 02-04-2014
Well, spacewise, im sure it would fit, maybe requiring a remote filter as stated. The cam profile compatibility im not sure of, how or if it would be a huge issue. I would hazard a guess it is a faster, more aggressive profile. As far as modded pump idle quality, governor adjustment aside, not sure it would need cranked up fuel wise, at least to start with, maybe turned down? Depends on model of pump too. Im pretty sure i can get a good used pump for a few hundred bucks, just to run as is. And labor/fab work, well thats something i really enjoy and am proficient at. Timing the thing is just going to be trial and error, probably spill timed and dynoed. Next question, can it be turned down without sending it off? Worse case, i do have an injection shop here but if i could turn one up, why not down? Now, if a 7100 can handle 7k+ (heard from a puller) even beings thats extreme, do i need that kind of revs? Likely not, now it would definitely need bumped up some but not that extremely high. Perhaps if it were governed to start defueling at 5k? Is that within the realm of possibilities? Further thoughts?
(02-04-2014, 09:41 AM)Simpler=Better I was under the impression that single-element pumps don't like high revs, which is why the 6xx engines have inline pumps
The P7100 is an inline pump, just like the M pump but bigger. Are you thinking of the VE pump? They don’t like revs at all, but it is a rotary type pump.
RE: P - pumping a om603/606? - F.R.A.S - 02-04-2014
I think it would be awesome
Why not?
RE: P - pumping a om603/606? - mytmousemalibu - 02-04-2014
(02-04-2014, 12:18 PM)F.R.A.S I think it would be awesome
Well, I'm the kind of guy that steps outside the box from time to time so, yes, im certainly entertaining the idea! I love fabrication and making my own things and following my own path. When it comes to something like this, I need to have some reasonable idea that it can work. Thus is why I am asking you folks if there is anything that kills the idea dead.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained. At one point, it must have sounded crazy the 1st time someone ask if spraying nitrous oxide into an engine would work, for example. Now we know the result
RE: P - pumping a om603/606? - F.R.A.S - 02-05-2014
That's the spirit. What's impossible today is normal tomorrow. We are currently building an adapter for BMW 325/525tds so we can scrap that old rotor pump and fit a M-pump. Might succeed, might fail. But what a heck. Someone has to do it.
RE: P - pumping a om603/606? - MFSuper90 - 02-05-2014
(02-04-2014, 11:26 AM)mytmousemalibu The P7100 is an inline pump, just like the M pump but bigger. Are you thinking of the VE pump? They don’t like revs at all, but it is a rotary type pump.
Not to get off topic, but i think it depends alot on the pump. We spin our roosamaster rotary past 5000rpm and their are some VW guys pushing their 11mm VE pumps around 7k
RE: P - pumping a om603/606? - Mynä-Diesel - 02-05-2014
(02-05-2014, 03:25 AM)F.R.A.S That's the spirit. What's impossible today is normal tomorrow. We are currently building an adapter for BMW 325/525tds so we can scrap that old rotor pump and fit a M-pump. Might succeed, might fail. But what a heck. Someone has to do it.
There is a one m51 with Mbs' M-pump.
http://www.btcf.fi/forum/showthread.php?t=7951&page=25
RE: P - pumping a om603/606? - F.R.A.S - 02-05-2014
Nice one, would love to read more about the project. Can't read Finish though.
(02-05-2014, 10:40 AM)Mynä-Diesel There is a one m51 with Mbs' M-pump.
http://www.btcf.fi/forum/showthread.php?t=7951&page=25
RE: P - pumping a om603/606? - Duncansport - 02-05-2014
(02-05-2014, 11:04 AM)F.R.A.S Nice one, would love to read more about the project. Can't read Finish though.
(02-05-2014, 10:40 AM)Mynä-Diesel There is a one m51 with Mbs' M-pump.
That looks like nice work there!
http://www.btcf.fi/forum/showthread.php?t=7951&page=25
Chrome browser will auto detect language and translate for you...
RE: P - pumping a om603/606? - mytmousemalibu - 02-05-2014
(02-05-2014, 10:14 AM)MFSuper90(02-04-2014, 11:26 AM)mytmousemalibu The P7100 is an inline pump, just like the M pump but bigger. Are you thinking of the VE pump? They don’t like revs at all, but it is a rotary type pump.
Not to get off topic, but i think it depends alot on the pump. We spin our roosamaster rotary past 5000rpm and their are some VW guys pushing their 11mm VE pumps around 7k
Absolutely. Not all are alike. Modification and preparation plays a big roll too. Also not to stray off too much, but i have personally witnessed a 1st gen 12V with a VE pump dyno a shay over 500hp. I guess that's hard to do on a VE, im not a Cummins follower.
RE: P - pumping a om603/606? - MFSuper90 - 02-05-2014
I was hoping our friend Göran would chime in why he would or would not use one, it's nice to have an experts opinion
RE: P - pumping a om603/606? - mytmousemalibu - 02-05-2014
(02-05-2014, 04:27 PM)MFSuper90 I was hoping our friend Göran would chime in why he would or would not use one, it's nice to have an experts opinion
Yes, I was hoping he would too, I would be very interested in what he may have to say!
Also out of curiousity, what do you have a Roosamaster in? All I remember ever seeing them in were GM 6.2/6.5 diesels and the ole 5.7L Oldsmobile diesel. I personally have had three 6.2's and my family has had a many of all of them over the years. All the IDI fords we owned or I saw had Stanadyne pumps. Funny names, lol. Our little JD tractor has a Diesel Kiki
RE: P - pumping a om603/606? - MFSuper90 - 02-06-2014
We have a roosamaster on our massey ferguson 1130 with a 354 Perkins. It originally has a CAV on it, but we switched it to a roosa
RE: P - pumping a om603/606? - Duncansport - 02-06-2014
(02-05-2014, 04:27 PM)MFSuper90 I was hoping our friend Göran would chime in why he would or would not use one, it's nice to have an experts opinion
Goran has responded to this in the past. Remember he has personally financed the development of three or four element designs for our beloved M-pumps, and that is no small task. There is a lot to be consider more then just fuel and size of the element ect...