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+--- Thread: 1998 w210 superturbo (/showthread.php?tid=5395)
1998 w210 superturbo - 97e300 - 03-04-2014
So I may straight trade my 97 NA E300 for a 98 TurboDiesel E300. This means that for now, my w123 dream slampiece is on hold. This also means I'm going to tune a w210 turbodiesel. E300TSC had a build on this site for his Superturbo E300 as well as gen3performance's E300 but E300TSC is gone and gen3 sold his e300. I want to somewhat pick up where these two left off but I'll need your guys' help because I am not the mechanic E300TSC or gen3 are. My list of what I want to accomplish is as follows:
- 300-400+HP
- 7.5mm elements
- ECU tune
- HX35 or VGT
- 3in Exhaust w/ better flowing exhaust manifold
- Intercooler upgrade
- MAF & EGR kill (through chiptune)
- Bilstein sport on H&R springs
- BrakesBrakesBrakes
- 18in AMG monoblock rims
What are your thoughts/suggestions?
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - raysorenson - 03-04-2014
Raising max rpms and keeping the EDC might be tricky. The maps top out at an rpm that isn't big horsepower friendly. If your heart is set on 400, going to a 603 pump and a standalone controller for the trans might be your best bet.
I'd love to get a hold of a DAMOS for this ECU. I might tune on my '98 as well.
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - bruno_pinho - 03-04-2014
Hi
I've seen that here in the forum when talking about electric pumps, problems always gets it ...
I have electric pump and I have not to say, I did 260cv, 417nm with the original pump ... and I have not cut fuel before cutting rotation, I have no tachometer but it seems that does 6000rpm for my choice.
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - 97e300 - 03-04-2014
(03-04-2014, 03:44 PM)raysorenson Raising max rpms and keeping the EDC might be tricky. The maps top out at an rpm that isn't big horsepower friendly. If your heart is set on 400, going to a 603 pump and a standalone controller for the trans might be your best bet.
I'd love to get a hold of a DAMOS for this ECU. I might tune on my '98 as well.
I've been told that features like the a/c wouldn't work with a 603 pump, is this true?
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - raysorenson - 03-04-2014
Hmm. Didn't think about that. The compressor is traditionally an ECU output so it makes sense. You shouldn't have to get too creative to make it work w/o the ECU. You'll lose cruise too unless you switch to an earlier servo setup. It would take a lot of work to keep a/c and cruise with the 603 pump.
Probably best to stick with the EDC and size the turbo to be almost out of breath at the redline. Besides, a huge turbo and an auto trans sounds like a nightmare.
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - 97e300 - 03-04-2014
Would HX35 be too big? I've got myself a kkk k24 sitting in my garage that could use a rebuild if that would be more practical. On that note, I know the factory turbo wastegate is vacuum controlled. Can the turbo be pressure controlled without flak from the ECU?
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - Hario' - 03-05-2014
Fitting 7.5 elements into your electronic pump means you would retain driveability, cold start characteristics and idle of original electronically controlled engine, if you fitted a 603 pump into a w210 almost every single light on the dashboard would stay illuminated! Lol.
You can block off the vacuum feed to the standard wastegate and fit a manifold pressure referenced actuator to your aftermarket turbo, however the ecu does nice things with the vacuum actuator such as holding it open at cruise/highway speeds saving loads on fuel economy.
I'm going to bleed signal pressure to the MAP sensor so you can over post without the ecu knowing about it and going into limp.
If you remove the large ac rad & fans there is enough space for an 18" x 20" x 3" intercooler, with 90 deg bends (2.5") that can join to the original boost hoses to turbo and manifold.
I am researching/doing all of the above to my w210/E300TD
Regards, Harry.
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - F.R.A.S - 03-05-2014
Don't hang me on this guys. But what does the trans need to work? What kind of signals from the ECU?
Why would every light on the dashboard light up with a mechanical pump?
Keep the ECU and all the wiring. Run Mechanical IP... Ignition ON will fire up the ECU, turn the engine over and the ECU will see a RPM-signal, flick the throttle and the ECU will see a RPM-signal. Put the trans in Drive and the ECU will see a speed-signal and a RPM-signal that match... When the engine gets hotter the ECU will see the water temp-signal, oil pressure signal and so on...
Is it really that much hustle?
And yea, there might be a CE-light regarding the MAF, but that can be eliminated in the software.
Tuning the ECU for the rebuilt IP, turbo setup and so on will cost more and not work that much better. But it's doable! We're talking live tuning here with a OLS300 emulating the stock ECU and the car hooked up to the old dyno. I for one would charge €800-900 for that and that's almost yet another IP.
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - Hario' - 03-06-2014
I strive to always provide accurate information so now having heard you say that, I am enclosed the other way.
Thinking about it the dashboard doesn't seem to notice the engine isn't running before I start it, so tonight I will unplug the multiplier for the IP from my e300td and see if the dashboard does anything when the ignition is on, I just assumed it would show an error when it doesn't see the resistance through the rack position sensor feedback wire.
MAF delete is easy with resistor/diode tutorial on this forum.
Regards H.
I will report back what happens tonight.
Thinking about it, the ecu might error when it doesn't see rack position match throttle position?
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - Hario' - 03-06-2014
Forgot to check, cooking bangers and mash, too cold will do experiment tomorrow, soz.
H
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - 97e300 - 03-07-2014
Harry,
Wouldn't eliminating the fans make the car too hot?
Mike
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - Hario' - 03-08-2014
The front electric fans are only triggered by ac condenser, the rear viscous fan does all engine cooling, on the UK E300TD anyway.
I binned ac rad and above electric fans for intercooler space, I'm in UK so ac is pointless..
H
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - 97e300 - 03-08-2014
(03-05-2014, 10:39 AM)F.R.A.S Tuning the ECU for the rebuilt IP, turbo setup and so on will cost more and not work that much better. But it's doable! We're talking live tuning here with a OLS300 emulating the stock ECU and the car hooked up to the old dyno. I for one would charge €800-900 for that and that's almost yet another IP.Could you go a little further into this, F.R.A.S?
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - F.R.A.S - 03-08-2014
To make this modifications in the ECU software you can't use an 'of the shelf' tune. You have to live tune the car on the dyno to get the best performance out of the car. This is time consuming...
To get a mechanical IP (the IP-build is the same cost any how) to work is fast and easy and can be done without a hook up to the dyno.
The Auto trans is the worry, but I think that one will work on TPS signal and RPM. So it should be OK.
Regarding the steering rack problem in the software there are some ways to go, some better then others. Connect an electric IP to the connector and let the ECU believe that the rack position is OK (if this is doable without a rotating IP). Second, take the electronic out of an electronic IP and hook that up to the connector... Third, delete the fault code in the software. Might be better solutions out there though.
(03-08-2014, 03:38 PM)97e300 Could you go a little further into this, F.R.A.S?
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - AlanMcR - 03-09-2014
(03-08-2014, 05:50 PM)F.R.A.S ...Connect an electric IP to the connector and let the ECU believe that the rack position is OK (if this is doable without a rotating IP). ...I believe that the IP feedback signal is an AC waveform which encodes RPM (as the frequency) and rack position (as the amplitude). I have heard that the actual sensor is a variable reluctance device. A stationary IP is not going to work.
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - muuris - 03-10-2014
I bet the tranny control unit shares much more info with ecu as torque is lowered during shifts etc.
Why not just keep the ecu and fool the rpm signal, if that's the problem? Rescale rpm signal from sensor down, then tune maps respectively from ecu. Switching to mechanical pump and keeping a/c, cruise and tranny alive is much bigger hassle.
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - AlanMcR - 03-10-2014
Remember that the stock E300 transmission is only good for 330NM.
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - muuris - 03-11-2014
(03-10-2014, 10:10 AM)AlanMcR Remember that the stock E300 transmission is only good for 330NM.
It will handle a bit more even as stock, and with a strengthening a lot more. Is OM606 only good for 330Nm?
Something I've posted over 3 years ago
(12-17-2010, 04:15 PM)muuris I've had 716.640 on my OM606 for a couple of months now. Rated for 370Nm, the engine makes about twice that and car weighs 1800kg. No problems at all and I haven't just driven it to the church..
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - 97e300 - 03-11-2014
I've read that number being closer to 578nm. I spoke to the guy at speedtuningusa and he said the revs were limited by the tcm. Is that true? Also, does anyone know of a dyno tuning place for one of these cars in CA?
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - raysorenson - 03-11-2014
The revs are limited by the maps in the ECU. There are a ton of maps that use RPM for an axis. I can't imagine a tuner extending even a few of them. Never even heard of it being done to an O.E. ecu.
There was a video posted here of a guy that rasied the RPM capability by intercepting the crank position sensor input with a controller and sending a lower frequency signal to the ECU. Since the ECU doesn't fire the injectors and the crank sensor doesn't have to synchronize with a cam sensor, it makes sense.
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - AlanMcR - 03-11-2014
(03-11-2014, 08:11 AM)muurisI'm guessing that there was a reason that the OM606 turbo performance chart looks like this:(03-10-2014, 10:10 AM)AlanMcR Remember that the stock E300 transmission is only good for 330NM.
It will handle a bit more even as stock, and with a strengthening a lot more. Is OM606 only good for 330Nm?
Something I've posted over 3 years ago
(12-17-2010, 04:15 PM)muuris I've had 716.640 on my OM606 for a couple of months now. Rated for 370Nm, the engine makes about twice that and car weighs 1800kg. No problems at all and I haven't just driven it to the church..
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - Turbo - 03-11-2014
Nice plot, can you plot the original boost in that plot as well?
(03-11-2014, 05:02 PM)AlanMcR(03-11-2014, 08:11 AM)muurisI'm guessing that there was a reason that the OM606 turbo performance chart looks like this:(03-10-2014, 10:10 AM)AlanMcR Remember that the stock E300 transmission is only good for 330NM.
It will handle a bit more even as stock, and with a strengthening a lot more. Is OM606 only good for 330Nm?
Something I've posted over 3 years ago
(12-17-2010, 04:15 PM)muuris I've had 716.640 on my OM606 for a couple of months now. Rated for 370Nm, the engine makes about twice that and car weighs 1800kg. No problems at all and I haven't just driven it to the church..
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - muuris - 03-12-2014
(03-11-2014, 05:02 PM)AlanMcR I'm guessing that there was a reason that the OM606 turbo performance chart looks like this:
Practically all modern turbo engines have the peak torque cutted away so max torque is on a wide rpm range. Of course this has partially to do with transmission rated torque (and turbocharger being small), but I never argued that 722.6 wouldn't been rated for more. I said it will handle more.
606 and 605 have their max boost (~1,2bar) at the 2000rpm range, it will be lowered as revs build being ~0,8bar at top rpm.
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - Hario' - 03-13-2014
So whats the plan?
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - 97e300 - 03-17-2014
Did you ever unplug that IP, Hario?
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - Hario' - 03-18-2014
Yes, and no apparent change, LIM & yellow triangle illuminated as usual then cranked but obviously no start.
Not sure if LIM and yellow triangle would go out though unless they work on rpm's or a signal thats not coming from IP wiring?
i think Mantahead has mech. pump fitted to his C250 IIRC?
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - Hario' - 03-19-2014
Also when I went to start it later the dash flashed up with 'ENGINE ELP ELECTRONICS' and again this morning, I think I will unplug the battery to reset the ECU.
I can only see this working with an electronic IP connected to the loom, or at least the electronics end of an IP seperated from the pump and wrapped in plastic under the fusebox cover..
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - 97e300 - 03-19-2014
Do you reckon it would trigger limp mode?
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - maxypriest - 03-20-2014
(03-19-2014, 03:08 AM)Hario or at least the electronics end of an IP seperated from the pump and wrapped in plastic under the fusebox cover..
he he he - i like your style!
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - Hario' - 03-24-2014
NOW HEAR THIS:
I read this a while ago when I first put together my superturbo C/E class OMxxx project. I've been wandering why I was convinced it would work with mech. pump in a car with electronic everything else..
This siekkinen guy did it and you just have the EDC light on (so you have to take the bulb out lol), But of course no limp mode because only your foot and throttle cable controls the pump.
Still not 100% convinced about elec 722.6 being happy though..
Siekkinen
TA 0301
**
Posts: 54
Joined: Aug 2012
Location: Haapajärvi, Finland
Post: #28
RE: 606 Teeny turbo and back pressure...
(10-22-2012 11:12 PM)Olivier Wrote: I was planning on a manual pump too, not an EDC.
With a manual pump, there is no need for a remap I was told, woohoo!! Then good power and less electronic and cheaper Big Grin , but the electronics are looking like hard to bypass and all..then it seems its going to be an EDC after all if I decided on the pump and a remap Sad
Olivier
[quote]
You don't need to worry about electronics if you got normal wastegate that works by pressure and mechanical injection pump. Only EDC light will shine but you can take the bulb off. Your car can't go to fault mode (or what is it in english)anymore. It really is a lot cheaper that way.
We use plumbing pipes here when we build manifolds. Professionals won't use them but for private people it is cheap and good material.
w124 300 STD/daily driver
w202 250 TDT
w201 2.6E
[quote]
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - Tito - 03-25-2014
You don't need to worry about electronics if you got normal wastegate that works by pressure and mechanical injection pump. Only EDC light will shine but you can take the bulb off. Your car can't go to fault mode (or what is it in english)anymore. It really is a lot cheaper that way.
That's good news. Makes me rethink my plans on my w124. I like the w210 a whole lot more.
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - AlanMcR - 03-25-2014
What about the transmission? It talks to the engine computer, and expects to reduce torque during shifts.
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - Tito - 03-25-2014
That's what I thought too. But manuals are plenty available here. I can definably see problems with the electric controlled auto box. Maybe it's a idea to fit an old mechanical auto tranny? Like form a om60x? if you're lucky to find a 603 with tranny, you'll have everything. 603 pump, bowdencable and throttle linkage, vacuum adjuster and so on. Downside is that you're fitting a old auto tranny which is.... yeah... old. And i personally don't like them. Lots of troubles with them. I drove an auto tranny in my w124 and drove it till the end but it had shift flare, missed 1st gear, had no reverse anymore and would sometimes just completely seize (blocking the rear tires). The car had about 300hp and it was a perfect shifting tranny.
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - Hario' - 03-25-2014
(03-25-2014, 01:12 PM)Tito That's what I thought too. But manuals are plenty available here. I can definably see problems with the electric controlled auto box. Maybe it's a idea to fit an old mechanical auto tranny? Like form a om60x? if you're lucky to find a 603 with tranny, you'll have everything. 603 pump, bowdencable and throttle linkage, vacuum adjuster and so on. Downside is that you're fitting a old auto tranny which is.... yeah... old. And i personally don't like them. Lots of troubles with them. I drove an auto tranny in my w124 and drove it till the end but it had shift flare, missed 1st gear, had no reverse anymore and would sometimes just completely seize (blocking the rear tires). The car had about 300hp and it was a perfect shifting tranny.
Lol Jesus that sounds epic! 10 points for commitment..
I will be keeping the 722.6, and being my daily I can install a built pump over a weekend but I can't risk the gearbox not behaving when I have to drive to work Monday morning unfortunately.
Shame a PCS controller is nearly £1000/$1000, but you can turn up the 722's line pressure with it to stop slippage. Note the PCS controller is in existence because the 722 guts is used in V8 Chryslers and all sorts!
(03-25-2014, 12:05 PM)AlanMcR What about the transmission? It talks to the engine computer, and expects to reduce torque during shifts.
This must be done by reducing boost through vacuum WG modulation, pressure wastegate can get around that but then the likelihood of limp returns..
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - AlanMcR - 03-26-2014
(03-25-2014, 07:41 PM)HarioReducing boost won't cut torque nearly fast enough to save the transmission. The ECU cuts fuel very quickly by moving the fuel control rod.(03-25-2014, 12:05 PM)AlanMcR What about the transmission? It talks to the engine computer, and expects to reduce torque during shifts.
This must be done by reducing boost through vacuum WG modulation, pressure wastegate can get around that but then the likelihood of limp returns..
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - Grecy - 03-26-2014
(03-05-2014, 10:25 AM)Hario You can block off the vacuum feed to the standard wastegate and fit a manifold pressure referenced actuator to your aftermarket turbo, however the ecu does nice things with the vacuum actuator such as holding it open at cruise/highway speeds saving loads on fuel economy.
Hi Harry,
Does that mean thee ECU forces 0 boost at highway speeds, or just whatever boost the wategate is set to open at?
Thanks,
-Dan
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - muuris - 03-27-2014
(03-26-2014, 04:23 PM)Grecy Does that mean thee ECU forces 0 boost at highway speeds, or just whatever boost the wategate is set to open at?
Thanks,
-Dan
The stock wastegate is closed by vacuum so it's not "set" for any specific pressure, it's normally open. ECU controls boost by throttle movement, ie. at 80kmh cruising it boosts around 0,2bar and at 100kmh 0,3bar. As soon as you hit the accelerator, the boost goes up as wastegate closes.
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - Hario' - 03-27-2014
Reducing boost won't cut torque nearly fast enough to save the transmission. The ECU cuts fuel very quickly by moving the fuel control rod.
Ok good but do you think the ecu will go limp if it doesn't detect torque reduction when it asks for it?
I cant remember which way round it works whether wastegate rest position is open and application of vacuum closes it or vice versa, anyway boost drops to practically zero at cruise, i.e constant speed/throttle. Yes as muuris says, touching the throttle causes the ecu to close the wastegate quickly.
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - AlanMcR - 03-28-2014
(03-27-2014, 07:18 PM)Hario Reducing boost won't cut torque nearly fast enough to save the transmission. The ECU cuts fuel very quickly by moving the fuel control rod.I doubt the transmission will go into limp mode because of the lack of a torque drop. I find it more likely that it will go into limp mode because it's RPM sensor will say one speed and the ECU will say 0.
Ok good but do you think the ecu will go limp if it doesn't detect torque reduction when it asks for it?
I cant remember which way round it works whether wastegate rest position is open and application of vacuum closes it or vice versa, anyway boost drops to practically zero at cruise, i.e constant speed/throttle. Yes as muuris says, touching the throttle causes the ecu to close the wastegate quickly.
The wastegate is spring loaded open. It is pulled closed by the ECU controlled vacuum. No matter how fast the vacuum moves the wastegate, that change in boost won't reach the cylinders until the shift has long been finished. Because of that, torque control for shifting really only be done with fuel management.
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - Hario' - 03-30-2014
Ah right I see.
RE: rpm pickup. You mean the flywheel ring gear rpm pickup for the gearbox will be good but it will not correlate to the IP digital rpm pickup? (Being zero because it's disconnected)
Regards, H.
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - AlanMcR - 03-30-2014
(03-30-2014, 01:48 PM)Hario Ah right I see.
RE: rpm pickup. You mean the flywheel ring gear rpm pickup for the gearbox will be good but it will not correlate to the IP digital rpm pickup? (Being zero because it's disconnected)
Regards, H.
Exactly. Any kind of sensor data miss-match is going to cause trouble.
On a side note: Is there a ring gear pickup? I though that was all done through the transmission conductor plate? I had one of the transmission RPM detectors fail and it was integrated into the conductor plate. It is a relatively easy fix. I just felt a little nervous doing open heart surgery on the automatic transmission for the first time.
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - Hario' - 04-01-2014
I don't know what you mean by conductor plate?
On my 606 there is a hall effect crank sensor looking sensor picking up on the starter ring gear teeth, I.m sure that is rpm pickup.
Interestingly there is also a factory bracket over the front crank pulley with a mount that looks like it fits the exact same hall effect sensor but the bracket is unused..
RE: 1998 w210 superturbo - raysorenson - 04-01-2014
Probably variable reluctor, not hall. 2 wires=vr, 3=hall. There are some old school 2 wire halls, but they were gone by the 90's.