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+--- Thread: OM617 MW pump experiment (/showthread.php?tid=5461)
OM617 MW pump experiment - dieselmeken - 03-23-2014
As a experiment I have bought 5pc 8 mm MW elements, just to see how much I must modify to get them into the pump and work.
Elements is no thin type that fits direct, such as the 10mm Volvo element does.
I keep you updatede, If we are lucky this can work out well.
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - DeliveryValve - 03-23-2014
Woo hooo! Keep us posted!
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - lgreeley83 - 03-23-2014
bam, no more M pumps, linkage, and hard line hunting :-)
Stock alda should work too?
Your business would likely take a big jump ;-). Can I buy stock and be a share holder?
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - CRD4x4 - 03-23-2014
Yes! I'll donate some pumps for experimentation!! I'll even pay shipping both ways!
Thanks for pioneering another solution!
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - 300SD_KY - 03-24-2014
very interesting. I haven't installed the proven Super DieselMeken M-Pump yet in my 1979.
I wonder how well modified Dieselmeken super MW pump will work.
Keep on good work Göran!
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - ShaggyDiesel - 03-25-2014
can't wait to see the results.
where do you find these and what pump are were they originally ment for?
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - OM616 - 03-25-2014
I used thick 10mm elements with my first MW SuperPump.. I had to change the studs, and the DV holders were different as I recall. I know there are lots of different versions, but the samples I got worked fine..
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - ShaggyDiesel - 03-25-2014
what engine do you do this on? were any of the internals changed or had to be modified to work with the setup?
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - yankneck696 - 03-26-2014
He will most likely use a stock engine with a different exhaust & turbo.
But, if not, he will just test the pump on the bench to see what it puts out for CC/1000 strokes.
Either way, it's a MUCH simpler way to go than sourcing an M pump & all of the adaption that goes along with it.
With the 8MM elements, there should surely be enough fuel to hurt the engine. Just have it dialed back to your fueling needs & thendo an exhaust manifold/turbo to back it up
THen, PLAN on a trans for the near future. Luckily, there are many adapter plates out there for the OM617 like 700R4 (Or any Chevy/BOP pattern), AX15, Ford Smallblock pattern, Toyots & others that can actually handle the increase with some fabbing on the driveline & shifter location. Most of the cheap options you find will have Overdrive & a steep 1st gear that will then lead to your next fuse, which is your Diff & axles. They (I think) can be upgraded, too.
Goran, what are your guesses got CC/1000 & HP on these? Just a guess....
Ed
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - ShaggyDiesel - 03-26-2014
i'm new to seriously modifying an OM617 with the mw ip, but i'm not new to moding diesels (trucks). so for sourcing parts for the injectors and injector pumps i really don't know where to begin. that's when i was put on to this site by a friend of mine, but due to seeing a certain former member of here i didn't want to start posting due to a past history with him and causing any problems.
so with that all out of the way i'm looking really for some guidance on how to proceed with the understanding on how these pumps work and how to modify them to meet or come close to the power ratings that i'm attempting to obtain.
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - Duncansport - 03-26-2014
(03-26-2014, 12:37 PM)ShaggyDiesel i'm new to seriously modifying an OM617 with the mw ip, but i'm not new to moding diesels (trucks). so for sourcing parts for the injectors and injector pumps i really don't know where to begin. that's when i was put on to this site by a friend of mine, but due to seeing a certain former member of here i didn't want to start posting due to a past history with him and causing any problems.
so with that all out of the way i'm looking really for some guidance on how to proceed with the understanding on how these pumps work and how to modify them to meet or come close to the power ratings that i'm attempting to obtain.
Spend an evening searching and reading on what you can do for power improvements. Be aware that there are no REAL gains to be made without sending your pump out or attempting the work your self. I know people will talk about newer turbos, pre-chamber mods, timing, exhaust, water meth yadda yadda yadda.. But it really comes down to fuel then air, and for that you'll need elements to start with. It's really that basic.
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - dieselmeken - 03-27-2014
(03-26-2014, 08:32 AM)yankneck696 He will most likely use a stock engine with a different exhaust & turbo.This 8,0mm element is from a Renault 5,5Litre Engine, 6 cyl and 113kw ( 154bhp) so in fuel as stock it dont deliver so much Moore than a 617A pump,
But, if not, he will just test the pump on the bench to see what it puts out for CC/1000 strokes.
Either way, it's a MUCH simpler way to go than sourcing an M pump & all of the adaption that goes along with it.
With the 8MM elements, there should surely be enough fuel to hurt the engine. Just have it dialed back to your fueling needs & thendo an exhaust manifold/turbo to back it up
THen, PLAN on a trans for the near future. Luckily, there are many adapter plates out there for the OM617 like 700R4 (Or any Chevy/BOP pattern), AX15, Ford Smallblock pattern, Toyots & others that can actually handle the increase with some fabbing on the driveline & shifter location. Most of the cheap options you find will have Overdrive & a steep 1st gear that will then lead to your next fuse, which is your Diff & axles. They (I think) can be upgraded, too.
Goran, what are your guesses got CC/1000 & HP on these? Just a guess....
Ed
Renault 52,5cc @10,4mm rack
OM617A 54,5cc@13,6mm rack
However as a upgrade for a Daily drive maybee 75-85cc is ok, after that turbo needs to be upgraded etc etc.
I must look at the element and se how it looks, if there is some Moore fuel to get from it.
NOTE This is just in my head for the moment, Elements is arriwing next week, then there is this small issue called time aslo.......
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - yankneck696 - 03-27-2014
Shaggy, don't worry about the "Former Member" as if I remember right, anyone with an IP address from Colorado must PROVE that they are not the "Great Agitator" that has been banned from just about every diesel site on the web, several times each due to using different screennames.
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - Duncansport - 03-27-2014
(03-27-2014, 08:44 AM)yankneck696 Shaggy, don't worry about the "Former Member" as if I remember right, anyone with an IP address from Colorado must PROVE that they are not the "Great Agitator" that has been banned from just about every diesel site on the web, several times each due to using different screennames.
Haha, yeah that guy seems to pop up everywhere. Must be among the Internet's biggest trolls
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - dieselmeken - 03-27-2014
(03-27-2014, 09:15 AM)DuncansportForced?(03-27-2014, 08:44 AM)yankneck696 Shaggy, don't worry about the "Former Member" as if I remember right, anyone with an IP address from Colorado must PROVE that they are not the "Great Agitator" that has been banned from just about every diesel site on the web, several times each due to using different screennames.
Haha, yeah that guy seems to pop up everywhere. Must be among the Internet's biggest trolls
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - lgreeley83 - 03-27-2014
Lol its like he is voldermort or something. "He who shall not be named"
I believe you are correct Dieselmeken ;-)
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - erling66 - 03-27-2014
Great work Dieselmeken, will be interesting to follow this thread.
I think "FI" should be invited back. He for sure had some balls and gave extra spice to this forum
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - [486] - 03-27-2014
(03-27-2014, 01:44 AM)dieselmeken This 8,0mm element is from a Renault 5,5Litre Engine, 6 cyl and 113kw ( 154bhp) so in fuel as stock it dont deliver so much Moore than a 617A pump,
Renault 52,5cc @10,4mm rack
OM617A 54,5cc@13,6mm rack
However as a upgrade for a Daily drive maybee 75-85cc is ok, after that turbo needs to be upgraded etc etc.
Well, it might not deliver much more fuel, but if it does it quicker isn't that worth it in itself?
Looks like the outside diameter of the barrel is larger on the 8mm ones as well as the easy to overcome flange thickness difference. Either way, easy enough to rig it up in a tool and cutter grinder and reduce any dimension you need to.
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - sassparilla_kid - 03-27-2014
Yes I do believe shorter injection duration keeps exhaust temperatures from climbing as quickly, however the 315 nozzles might be needed to reap the full benefit, as they flow more fuel
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - dieselmeken - 03-28-2014
Looks like the outside diameter of the barrel is larger on the 8mm ones as well as the easy to overcome flange thickness difference. Either way, easy enough to rig it up in a tool and cutter grinder and reduce any dimension you need to.
[/quote]
Yes That is correct, Thin MW is 21,95mm, Thick is 23,95. No big deal. I did take one old 10 mm and put it up in the machine and took it down to 21.95mm, It turned ot OK, But I need a bigger oring to seal.
[quote='[486]' pid='62389' dateline='1395970355']
Next thing to sort is the deliveryvalve holder, Its to short in the thread, I have a 1413356079 that fits, problem is that its quite expensive.
Also, oring needs to seal 20,8 inner 25,2 outside diameter
I keep up the work, next thing is to take the pump to pieces.
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - Duncansport - 03-28-2014
(03-28-2014, 03:00 AM)dieselmeken Looks like the outside diameter of the barrel is larger on the 8mm ones as well as the easy to overcome flange thickness difference. Either way, easy enough to rig it up in a tool and cutter grinder and reduce any dimension you need to.Yes That is correct, Thin MW is 21,95mm, Thick is 23,95. No big deal. I did take one old 10 mm and put it up in the machine and took it down to 21.95mm, It turned ot OK, But I need a bigger oring to seal.
(03-27-2014, 08:32 PM)[486] Next thing to sort is the deliveryvalve holder, Its to short in the thread, I have a 1413356079 that fits, problem is that its quite expensive.
Also, oring needs to seal 20,8 inner 25,2 outside diameter
I keep up the work, next thing is to take the pump to pieces.
Nice work Goran, it's great to see so much effort put into a part that fits cars that are 30 years old. Again, amazing work on your part
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - raysorenson - 03-28-2014
There's probably a good sized untapped market in the US for this. I expect the 4x4 crowd will have money to spend on their 617 swap rigs.
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - yankneck696 - 03-28-2014
8MM with the right cam & rack travel would be about perfect for a Jeep or Cherokee to get full advantage of the OM 617. Of course, a VNT/VGT turbo would round it out well.
As for FI, we do not need "False Information" here at all.
Ed
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - OM616 - 03-28-2014
(03-28-2014, 03:00 AM)dieselmeken Next thing to sort is the deliveryvalve holder, Its to short in the thread, I have a 1413356079 that fits, problem is that its quite expensive.
I keep up the work, next thing is to take the pump to pieces.
I made custom DV holders for the Thick elements in my first 10mm MW.
There is nothing complicated to them, so you could probably have some made for cheaper than OEM?
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - dieselmeken - 03-28-2014
(03-28-2014, 10:38 AM)OM616I need the orifice in the DV.(03-28-2014, 03:00 AM)dieselmeken Next thing to sort is the deliveryvalve holder, Its to short in the thread, I have a 1413356079 that fits, problem is that its quite expensive.
I keep up the work, next thing is to take the pump to pieces.
I made custom DV holders for the Thick elements in my first 10mm MW.
There is nothing complicated to them, so you could probably have some made for cheaper than OEM?
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - OM616 - 03-28-2014
(03-28-2014, 01:07 PM)dieselmeken I need the orifice in the DV.
Do you mean the orifice in the top (just above the spring) of the DV holder? The ones in the holders that I have seen are pressed in.
I just machined it into the holders I made as I was not going to be using the same DV holder for different applications that required different orifice sizes..
I was tempted to not use one at all and have a larger hole, but in the end, since I was already in new territory, I decided not to introduce any more unknowns into the mix. From what I have read it is supposed to help dampen return pulses. My next step was to increase the size of it, but never got around to it, as the trans blew up and the owner junked the car lol….
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - ShaggyDiesel - 04-02-2014
any updates?
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - Turbo - 04-03-2014
what is the main difference between the PES5MW and the PES6MW?
will a PES6MW fit where a PES5MW has been fit before? I know the mercedes pump is diffent in the shaft then one I have.
for example have one pump PES6MW100/320RS1132 with 0 403 476 043 or 072 05774 so it is suppose to have 10mm plunger and those will not fit here?
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - 85-300D - 04-03-2014
Subscribed
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - dieselmeken - 04-04-2014
Friday Update
Here you see the difference between the 2 elements, Note that the 8 mm not have the retarded slot for lower timing on low idle & low fuel, That can be sorted out in the grinding machine
Next problem, 8mm have a total lenght of 58,8.. compared to 5,5mm that only is 57,0mm
That can be sorted out with some thicker adjusting shimms when I do the prestroke
I Think it was 10 years since I tok a MW to pieces, A bit rusty in my head but I did it.
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - rbuljo - 04-05-2014
this is so exciting... keep it up.
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - dieselmeken - 04-10-2014
Elements have been machined by me now, Orings is sorted, Now all I need is some Moore time to put this together,
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - [486] - 04-10-2014
(04-10-2014, 09:49 AM)dieselmeken Elements have been machined by me now, Orings is sorted, Now all I need is some Moore time to put this together,
I bet the larger diameter on the barrel was to do away with the stamped sheet metal o ring holder. Could probably just grind down the "lower" half to the groove, then not need the spacer piece.
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - yankneck696 - 04-10-2014
Oh, c'mon.... It takes you like 2 minutes to pull an M pump apart. You can reassemble that pile o parts in an hour... LOL
Ed
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - 300SD_KY - 04-10-2014
Goran, you make those DTP Motorteile look good! I am curious to see your amazing progress.
... i wonder if my stock MW pump, modified by you with these DTP elements, would fit AND work "better" than your tried and true M-pump.
... any thoughts?
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - dieselmeken - 04-11-2014
(04-10-2014, 10:12 PM)300SD_KY Goran, you make those DTP Motorteile look good! I am curious to see your amazing progress.When this pump is ready, I must have some testpilot for it, probably it will end up in a Norwegian G-wagen or something like that, just for testing it out
... i wonder if my stock MW pump, modified by you with these DTP elements, would fit AND work "better" than your tried and true M-pump.
... any thoughts?
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - saquzi - 04-11-2014
Where did you get those elements?? Do you have 4 to sell maybe?...
I need bigger elements on my pump....
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - cjcosta - 04-11-2014
I can be a candidate to the test the pump
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - dieselmeken - 04-11-2014
First tryout
Deliveryvalve is from OM603 pump, holders from Volvo Penta TD61 Engine, have to sort that out, they are expensive.
120cc of fuel is quite good for a OM617A Engine, Also max fuel is at 16 mm of racktravel so the governor is not going to be modified, It will be stock with som minor adjustments only.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKtiicOVZ_c&feature=youtu.be
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - yankneck696 - 04-11-2014
Bad @$$ !!!!! Great work, Goran. Am I right that in the higher RPMs, it lost a little, or was that just catching up? What HP would you expect this to put out with proper air delivery?
It's AWESOME that someone is really putting time into our bastard pumps.
Ed
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - dieselmeken - 04-11-2014
(04-11-2014, 09:17 AM)yankneck696 Bad @$$ !!!!! Great work, Goran. Am I right that in the higher RPMs, it lost a little, or was that just catching up? What HP would you expect this to put out with proper air delivery?Thanks, Glad that someone likes my small Project, 120cc must be fuel to atleast 250+hp, I mean its around 100% Moore than stock OM617A.
It's AWESOME that someone is really putting time into our bastard pumps.
Ed
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - cjcosta - 04-11-2014
I like it too
maybe this «small» projects have more interest then «bigger» projects. For daily drivers like me this is a fantastic solution.Thanks for the time invested hope to ear more in a near future and maybe i upgrade my pump too~.
Best Regards,
Carlos
(04-11-2014, 09:49 AM)dieselmeken(04-11-2014, 09:17 AM)yankneck696 Bad @$$ !!!!! Great work, Goran. Am I right that in the higher RPMs, it lost a little, or was that just catching up? What HP would you expect this to put out with proper air delivery?Thanks, Glad that someone likes my small Project, 120cc must be fuel to atleast 250+hp, I mean its around 100% Moore than stock OM617A.
It's AWESOME that someone is really putting time into our bastard pumps.
Ed
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - yankneck696 - 04-11-2014
That would be perfect for a Toyota Pickup..Keep us updated. Do you think this is something that your affiliate in the states could do? I see that many are nervous to use them, but I would in a heartbeat to get the ball rolling.
Ed
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - Gearbound - 04-11-2014
Awesome work Goran! I didnt know people where getting 250hp or more out of om617A to need bigger pumps.
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - 85-300D - 04-11-2014
Any idea what it would cost for everything needed to upgrade a stock MW pump? I was thinking of having my pump rebuilt and setup on the test stand sometime this year. If you think that these elements may be an option for me, I will hold off for a while
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - dieselmeken - 04-12-2014
(04-11-2014, 08:35 PM)85-300D Any idea what it would cost for everything needed to upgrade a stock MW pump? I was thinking of having my pump rebuilt and setup on the test stand sometime this year. If you think that these elements may be an option for me, I will hold off for a whileNo I have not calculated any cost so far. Right now im just want the pump ready and tested on a Engine so I know that it works OK. What is a resonable price for this kind of pumpmodification? Give me a hint here.
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - yankneck696 - 04-12-2014
Goran, that is like asking what the Pope would pay for the Holy Grail.....LOL
Ed
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - 300SD_KY - 04-12-2014
(04-11-2014, 02:47 AM)dieselmeken(04-10-2014, 10:12 PM)300SD_KY Goran, you make those DTP Motorteile look good! I am curious to see your amazing progress.When this pump is ready, I must have some testpilot for it, probably it will end up in a Norwegian G-wagen or something like that, just for testing it out
... i wonder if my stock MW pump, modified by you with these DTP elements, would fit AND work "better" than your tried and true M-pump.
... any thoughts?
NOOOOOO ;-) i know of a 300SD in Kentucky willing to pay shipping & handling from Dieselmeken HQ ... and add a very fine Kentucky bourbon to be the test pilot!
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - kestreltom - 04-13-2014
(04-12-2014, 02:58 AM)dieselmeken No I have not calculated any cost so far. Right now im just want the pump ready and tested on a Engine so I know that it works OK. What is a resonable price for this kind of pumpmodification? Give me a hint here.
How about 8 mm for 8 hundred - plus shipping
RE: OM617 MW pump experiment - OM616 - 04-13-2014
(04-13-2014, 06:46 AM)kestreltom(04-12-2014, 02:58 AM)dieselmeken No I have not calculated any cost so far. Right now im just want the pump ready and tested on a Engine so I know that it works OK. What is a resonable price for this kind of pumpmodification? Give me a hint here.
How about 8 mm for 8 hundred - plus shipping
LLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If that weren't so funny it would be an insult lol...