My 5 speed swap - Printable Version

My 5 speed swap - Printable Version

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+--- Thread: My 5 speed swap (/showthread.php?tid=5499)

My 5 speed swap - E308L - 04-07-2014

So i bought this 85 300TD with a trashed auto thinking, "Yeah I'll just 5 speed swap it like the the last few fubar'ed auto cars I did..."

After 5 months of searching the forums, collecting aluminum and stainless drops/scraps at work, upgrading my welding setup/skills, and shelling out for parts I'm finally making progress.

I picked up most of the swap parts from member Surfrodder a while ago (great guy I might add, a pleasure to do business with). Trans is a 717.411 5 speed which seemed to be in great shape. I'll be using a 300GD flywheel, currently still in transit from Germany. Haven't figured out drive line options yet. This will be my wife's car and she prefers to keep the flexdisc setup but I'd rather go to u joints.

I am basically core drilling the bell housing for 6061-T6 1" round bar plugs centered over the bolt holes of the OM617 intermediate plate. The 1" round bar plugs will be welded in place and then drilled on center for OM617 bolt pattern. I have prefabbed a new starter bump from 6061-T6 1/4" bar stock and 3/32" sheet to cover the added notch in the passenger side of the bell housing.

I'll be going to pick and pull for an intermediate plate so I can make a fixture to minimize warp during welding. I also still need to roll some sheet and cut patches for the notches I had to cut for bolt head clearance. I plan to weld sheet to my intermediate plate to cover the original starter bump opening and the gaps at the top of the bell housing.

Long term plans for the car include turbo upgrades, intercooler, tubular header and full 3inch turbo back exhaust all 304SS, suspension and brake upgrades, and maybe more. I have been taking plenty of pictures just need to upload them when I'm not at work...

RE: My 5 speed swap - E308L - 04-07-2014

Drilling the bell housing in my ghetto shop:

[Image: IMG_20140301_190326_736_zps8fd7001d.jpg]

Marking intermediate plate on template:

[Image: IMG_20140301_190305_381_zps65afbc38.jpg]

Marking bell housing on template:

[Image: IMG_20140302_113920_219_zps4308a3c8.jpg]

1" round bar plug in core drilled hole:

[Image: IMG_20140306_173005_657_zps9c913280.jpg]

New starter notch with cover before welding:

[Image: IMG_20140405_154017_256_zps9973b6cf.jpg]

After welding just cover portion:

[Image: IMG_20140405_172124_272_zps9536eb87.jpg]

This what I normally weld, stainless process pipe and tube:

[Image: IMG_20140322_080223_076_zpseec8e94e.jpg]

I should say this is a learning experience for me - first diesel, first aluminum welding project, first Mercedes...all suggestions/advice appreciated (and taken with salt) Tongue

Before the welding gods flame me - my welds are contaminated. I need to clean my base metal and filler rods better. I have gotten some acetone and scotchbrite and will address the filth. DC welding stainless is much more forgiving and where I work its all scratch start so I'm also still getting used to my pedal at home.

RE: My 5 speed swap - sassparilla_kid - 04-07-2014

That weld is amazing

RE: My 5 speed swap - Druk - 04-08-2014

Just a word of warning about acetone. Building a boat years ago using epoxy I discovered that some acetone has a high oil content.
Drop some in a puddle and see if it 'oils'. It was causing my epoxy to 'fisheye'. Methyl-Ethyl-Ketone (MEK) is much purer and gives a cleaner surface.

Nice welding Big Grin

RE: My 5 speed swap - CRD4x4 - 04-08-2014

(04-08-2014, 02:26 AM)Druk Methyl-Ethyl-Ketone (MEK) is much purer and gives a cleaner surface.

HEALTH & SAFETY WARNING:

MEK smells like a warthogs asshole! Don't die.

RE: My 5 speed swap - Druk - 04-08-2014

CRD4x4 MEK smells like a warthogs asshole! Don't die.

Only those who've had their nose up a warthogs asshole would know this. Huh

Still good stuff.

RE: My 5 speed swap - E308L - 04-08-2014

Thanks for the compliments. I use acetone for cleaning metals at work all the time, never had an issue, maybe some brands are less pure?

I got my seal kit from Classic Parts, noticed there's a gasket for the front bearing cover plate. My trans had dried liquid sealant in that joint, no gasket. I'm wondering if the gasket will be thicker and put slop on the endplay of those bearings...

RE: My 5 speed swap - DeliveryValve - 04-08-2014

Great job! I like your process of accomplishing this.

.

RE: My 5 speed swap - Jooseppi Luna - 04-08-2014

I like how clean your solution is. I'm hoping to tackle the 717.411 swap in my 300SD next summer, when I may have access to a machine shop Wink

.

At this point, with JB3, 5spd617, and you, I think it's arguable that the 717.400 is no longer at all necessary to have a nice, clean 5-speed OM61X car.

RE: My 5 speed swap - E308L - 04-14-2014

Got some work done yesterday, fabrication is done, fit up and tacking done except starter bump and one bolt head relief patch. We finished a major project at work so maybe now I'll have more than one day a week to spend on my own projects.

[Image: IMG_20140413_205928_244_zps3052a1c7.jpg]

[Image: IMG_20140413_210127_055_zps88a001da.jpg]

[Image: IMG_20140413_205946_947_zpsfdc56a86.jpg]

[Image: IMG_20140413_210636_827_zps06a4f439.jpg]

So far the alignment dowels have tightened up a bit, they are getting pulled closer together. Intermediate plate still engages fine and sits flush its just tighter.

This isn't an ideal first aluminum project. After tacking a few pieces on my bench I was like, holy shit stainless doesn't do that. I'm thinking I might just put stitch welds on the plugs, some more tacks on the patches and seal it with something else to limit warpage. More weld than necessary is definitely not better here.

This part is for my reference:
Syncrowave 250
Amps - 250
AC balance - 7
AC frequency - 60%
Balled 1/8" green tungsten
CK18 torch with large gas saver
1/8" 4043 filler
Argon @ 35cfh w/ 20 second post flow

RE: My 5 speed swap - raysorenson - 04-14-2014

When you set it at 250 amps, is that WFO with the foot pedal or do you modulate?

RE: My 5 speed swap - E308L - 04-14-2014

(04-14-2014, 05:32 PM)raysorenson When you set it at 250 amps, is that WFO with the foot pedal or do you modulate?

I set the machine to 250amps and use the pedal to give me what I need. My technique is to use full or near full pedal to start the puddle, back off to where I actually make the weld and then taper slowly to zero to avoid cracks. Like I said before, I don't get to use a pedal very often so I'm not the best at reacting quickly to the puddle with amperage changes. I haven't even tried using my pulse controller yet.

RE: My 5 speed swap - JB3 - 04-15-2014

Absolutey awesome. This is a really well conceived solution and supurb welding quality!

So when are you offering your welding services to the forum at large? Tongue

RE: My 5 speed swap - E308L - 04-26-2014

Its welded out and headed to machine shop next week. 300GD flywheel was somehow lost in the mail so I'm looking into adding mass to the 240D flywheel I have.

[Image: IMG_20140426_193606_919_zpsd7b0d90a.jpg]

[Image: IMG_20140426_193546_615_zpsd7db4c3d.jpg]

[Image: IMG_20140426_193450_756_zps2d7a972a.jpg]

[Image: IMG_20140426_193404_723_zps06a823f6.jpg]

RE: My 5 speed swap - E308L - 04-29-2014

Case is in the machine shop to verify roundness of bearing bores and fly cut the mating surface, may take a couple weeks since they're pretty busy. In the meantime I've been doing cleaning under the hood, removing auto trans junk, still need to swap pedal sets and shifter.

I've been unable to find rebuild info for this trans, can anybody help?

I need to know if there is a preload specs for the tapered input shaft and counter shaft bearings. My trans (which I suspect was rebuilt) had a liquid sealant on the front cover mating surface and my reseal kit includes a paper gasket. I kept the bearings, races and shims well organized but I really want to know the specs for reassembly and reliable service.

Also, some good exploded diagrams would help, especially with the parts that go in the rear of the input shaft. The ones on JB3's thread are hard to see and lots of part names are out of the image.

Thanks in advance!

RE: My 5 speed swap - MFSuper90 - 04-30-2014

Wow, this is awesome. Looks like exactly what I wish I had time to do. I'm still in the stage of trying to find a freakin 711.411. They seem to be non-existent in my area.

You went to the extent of what you did, why did you leave the starter bell on the other side? I know it would add more work, but with all the welding you already did I figure you would cut it off Tongue

Very, Very nice work. Pm me when you are ready to do another one like this!! Wink

RE: My 5 speed swap - E308L - 04-30-2014

(04-30-2014, 10:16 AM)MFSuper90 Wow, this is awesome. Looks like exactly what I wish I had time to do. I'm still in the stage of trying to find a freakin 711.411. They seem to be non-existent in my area.

You went to the extent of what you did, why did you leave the starter bell on the other side? I know it would add more work, but with all the welding you already did I figure you would cut it off

Very, Very nice work. Pm me when you are ready to do another one like this!!

Very time consuming, I can't count the hours I've put into this and I'm far from done. I got lucky finding one for sale on pelican parts from a forum member. My son and I made an all day road trip to get it.

As for the original starter bump, I had originally hoped to make the trans fit both engine blocks but quickly realized that would be impractical and unnecessary anyway. I also wanted to avoid unnecessary cutting and welding on the cast structure to maintain it's strength. I didn't weld every bit of every joint to avoid excess heat input, working with stainless everyday will make you paranoid of warping.

I would consider doing this again under the right circumstances but I'm not about to line up a bunch of them. As it is I have at least 10 other projects waiting, stainless headers for 3 vehicles, stainless oil catch cans, crew cab swap on my W250, 5.9 to build for my ramcharger...

RE: My 5 speed swap - MFSuper90 - 04-30-2014

(04-30-2014, 02:19 PM)E308L As for the original starter bump, I had originally hoped to make the trans fit both engine blocks but quickly realized that would be impractical and unnecessary anyway. I also wanted to avoid unnecessary cutting and welding on the cast structure to maintain it's strength. I didn't weld every bit of every joint to avoid excess heat input, working with stainless everyday will make you paranoid of warping.

I would consider doing this again under the right circumstances but I'm not about to line up a bunch of them. As it is I have at least 10 other projects waiting, stainless headers for 3 vehicles, stainless oil catch cans, crew cab swap on my W250, 5.9 to build for my ramcharger...

I was joking about doing another, I am sure it will pay off for yourself, but to charge for the man hours you would have in this, the price could rack up to a large amount very quickly Smile

As for projects, I am in the same boat as you. I need to put bigger injectors in my 3-71 Detroit, take the radiator out of my Massey 98, rebuild my 440 Kawasaki, build a turbo header for my MF Super 90, etc, etc.... The list is never ending!

But keep up the good work, its gonna be pretty badass when your done! Big Grin

RE: My 5 speed swap - JB3 - 05-01-2014

(12-31-1969, 07:23 PM)E308L Also, some good exploded diagrams would help, especially with the parts that go in the rear of the input shaft. The ones on JB3's thread are hard to see and lots of part names are out of the image.

Thanks in advance!

that diagram came from charmalu who i think may have that book in hand. he might be able to take a better pic if the EPC has no better pics either

RE: My 5 speed swap - E308L - 05-06-2014

JB3, did you address bearing preload when you did your rebuild?

RE: My 5 speed swap - E308L - 02-22-2017

Dragging this one back from the dead......

I didn't like how much the bellhousing pulled on my first attempt. I could get the thing on the intermediate plate but had to really force it and surely the input shaft would have been misaligned. I threw a 240D 4 speed in the car and ran it until recently when the 4 speed got stuck in 1st and the 1-2 shift lever went floppy. I decided to revisit the 5 speed swap and try again using JB3's method.

I have already welded the OM61X bellhousing onto the 717.411 5 speed case and I'm happy with how it turned out, almost zero warp at the mating surface. I really don't want to cut and weld the input shafts for a list of reasons, most of them obvious.

I had planned to toss in a gasser clutch disc to match the finer splines of the input shaft and somehow space the pilot bearing out from the crank to engage the shorter input shaft snout. Haven't measured but maybe I could have a bushing made to allow installing the pilot bearing into the flywheel like a dual mass setup. I have also considered having a pilot bushing made to same ID and OD just longer, I don't care if it wears faster as removing this trans is a quick easy job. I was thinking though, if there is a dual mass flywheel I can use that wouldn't require a spacer for the pilot bearing that may be better, I really don't know.

Can anybody suggest options for this application?

85 300TD
OM617.952
240D flywheel, or other more appropriate flywheel
717.411 5 speed with OM61X bellhousing welded on
717.411 stock input shaft