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+--- Thread: SuperRods for STDs (/showthread.php?tid=5533)
SuperRods for STDs - F.R.A.S - 04-22-2014
So guys, a lot of threads at the moments for rods.
I've been looking in this direction to (as so many others at the same time) in my pursuit for 1000whp in a om606.
So I gave my contact at one of the largest rod manufacturers in the world an e-mail with my demands for a om605/om606 rod.
There are some secrets here
but I'll give you the list of criteria.6cyl (om606), 1500hp and 1700Nm (1254ft-lb), be able to rev 8000rpm and cope with a 24-hours LeMans race
Yea, the price tag on this is not light... But well worth it if going SuperTurboDiesel and not only doing kindergarden 5-600hp
Here is some specifications:
H-beam 4330M Steel
Multiphase MP35N (UTYS of 260-285.000psi) bolts.
These are in the developing phase so there is no exact weight at the moment!
The price is $435/each + shipping. NO pickup on these bad boys.
That's $2610 for a full set of 6pc for a om606.
NO minimum order, no strings attached. To get 5% off you have to share a picture of your new rods 5times on Facebook with a tag of F-tune Performance
This price is limited due to the simple fact that I'm not making any money on the deal and will actually loose money when giving you a discount
It's time to put some high powered diesels out there. 600hp is a lot, but it's NOT much.
/ F
RE: SuperRods for STDs - Petar - 04-22-2014
I think you will be reaching the limits of pistons and cranks too with that much power
RE: SuperRods for STDs - F.R.A.S - 04-22-2014
Pistons is coming up with the same specifications
RE: SuperRods for STDs - raysorenson - 04-22-2014
If you could beat O.E prices for pistons by 15% you would own the rebuild market for 617,03,06.
RE: SuperRods for STDs - F.R.A.S - 04-23-2014
What are you paying for O.E pistons today?
RE: SuperRods for STDs - mantahead - 04-23-2014
1500hp??
you have set a high target
whats the most hp you have got out of om606 to date?
RE: SuperRods for STDs - bqik - 04-23-2014
wow...
where are you going to put this OM606 beast???
single turbo?
thanks
RE: SuperRods for STDs - shadowmaker - 04-23-2014
(04-23-2014, 08:59 AM)mantahead 1500hp??
you have set a high target
whats the most hp you have got out of om606 to date?
1000whp is only 1150-1250bhp, not 1500. Rod specs should be around 1500bhp for that kind of build.
Whp is a bit stupid measurement of engine power as it depends on transmission used, tires, tire alignment, tire pressure and how much the vehicle is tied down. Although it sounds more riser...
400bhp per litre might be possible and I'm pretty sure best power can be achieved around 8000rpm if wanted. But then there's really little left from actual OM606 engine and cost per reliable hp is out of this world. CR should be dropped around 12:1, so even starting up in warm conditions is somewhat different procedure... Even for our mere 700bhp (=under 600whp), we have already found some critical things that will get the engine totalled, no matter what rod or piston used.
RE: SuperRods for STDs - Duncansport - 04-23-2014
Just thinking out loud here..
In the case of our OM60x engine i think the big issue becomes the vibrations and harmonics at high rpm due to the heavy rods and pistons (strong).The reciprocating mass needs to be greatly reduced at RPM's above 6000 to try to reduce vibrations as much as possible. A fluid damper, one piece main bearing caps and girdle as well as dry sump would all be on the list i would think?
Also the amount of air in and out of the engine due to the rather small valve size needs to be addressed, due to their spacing it's hard to improve the size in any major way as the valves are close to the combustion ring.
And then at what point does this engine need to become a DI engine?
But, glad to hear of the efforts being made!!
Keep at it!
RE: SuperRods for STDs - F.R.A.S - 04-23-2014
I absolutely agree, there will be little left of the om606, just the block more or less, the head has to be ported and then it's not a stock om606 head any more... So block only and some internals like cam chain, sprockets and so on... Yea and the block will be modified so not even that is a stock om-product.
The goal is to have unbreakable rods for 1000whp at a reasonable cost. I know stock stuff are super tough so this inquiry to the rod manufacturer was just to see if it's even possible. And it is
We dyno our cars in a DynaPack which measures Hub-hp witch we more commonly refer to as wheel horsepowers. So we can take the tires and so on out of the equation. And what is bhp? Benched horsepower. How will you measure it else-way? But the power at the flywheel is not applicable in real life. Transmission just as you say is a big part of it and if you have a 15% loss in tranny and I have 12% in mine, then my car is stronger then yours... If we measure whp and have the same we know that our cars on the street has the same amount of power...
But this is about rods, not how to dyno.
RE: SuperRods for STDs - Duncansport - 04-23-2014
Has there been any thought to aluminum rods? Lots of pro race motors use them and the jury is still out on them "compressing" and needing to be changed every ----- runs.
Clearance might be an issue?
RE: SuperRods for STDs - shadowmaker - 04-24-2014
Well, I consider ported head to be still original, but even with fire rings I really doubt the head will survive 400hp/L. Valves can be relocated for better flow/bigger size. This is something we have done earlier. Block needs to be filled for such power, but I still consider it as original. To make 24h LeMans with filled block is another thing.
Hub dyno is OK. I'll take any dyno that is able to repeat it's results with runs months apart. With hub dyno you can calculate bhp as well, and when we talk about engine performance, or when you alter engine setup, I'd prefer bhp over whp. Even with hub dyno it's kind of pointless to talk real life performance with 1000whp vehicle. With 1000whp real life performance is more related to slipping clutch adjustements, whether your M/Ts are 22" or 36" and are you on glued track or not.
Reducing reciprocating masses is very important when higher revs are on demand. Original set is HEAVY, but also very strong. Sad thing is that no matter how strong, vibration/harmonics will kill the engine if it occurs within used rev area. Maybe aluminun rods (titanium if you have the money) are the only way to reduce weight without weakening strenght, but maybe not for road use. IRC my custom made DLC coated titanium piston pins shaved over 100 grams from originals per piece.
RE: SuperRods for STDs - F.R.A.S - 04-24-2014
You are once again correct. Question is who will be the first one to dyno 1000hp (wheel, hub or flywheel).
Just some 15yrs ago 5-600hp in a street car was crazy. Today every little 18yrs old kid has a 400hp BMW turbo and the limit is so far away that we can't really imagine what happens next.
I believe that nothing is impossible. And to do 1000hp in a om60x engine is no problem. The problem is how to do it on a budget and the way that the engine is drivable and reliable.
If you can do +1000whp in a little BMW 6cyl engine on e85, then you can do it in a Mercedes 6cyl engine on diesel
RE: SuperRods for STDs - yankneck696 - 04-24-2014
Harmonics are not a high RPM thing. It's all about the frequency that the rotating assembly resonates at. That's why the OEMs can get away with a simple rubber typr harmonic dampener. There is quite a bit of engineering that goes into that piece.
Yes, a Fluidamper would be the way to go, due to not having the engineering capabilities for measuring the resonant frequency.
8000 RPMs is scary in any engine, let alone a diesel. I would think a billet crank, custom rod caps & a well engineered girdle (Not something built on a garage) would go a long way to making it happen.
2 large turbos feeding a good sized VGT turbo could feed the air.
I would also think that a higher lift cam would help in the overall venture & the added lift would comprimise the integrity of the cam holders (2.3 ford racing engines with 3/4 racing cams at 8500 RPMs, we had to tig weld straps to keep the cam holders from grenading).
Major port work, altering of valves (Angles, titanium, beehive springs) would be a feat. O ringing is always a better alternative for the head, but at these powers, a fire ring setup would be mandatory, along with possibly adding more/stronger hold down fasteners
I am not at all trying to deter anyone at all. I am just pointing out the real & expensive work after the rods are built to reach the goal.
Ed
RE: SuperRods for STDs - Gearbound - 04-24-2014
ATI has worked with the 1986-1992 toyota supra owners to make a damper when they made +1000hp fluidampr has worked with the cummins guys on making dampers as well. both have pros and cons.
I look forward to 1500whp 606. i hope its converted to DI