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+--- Thread: What pump is it? (/showthread.php?tid=6034)
What pump is it? - starynovy - 12-08-2014
Hello, sorry for duplicating as I am aware that this topic was discussed before but I cant find solid answer. So I am buying mechanical pump for my 605 and I came across two diferrent pumps, both sellers state that they are from W124 250 diesel, but they are not the same, not by a long shot. Please look and tell..
I personally think that ist this one, no electronics and looks familiar with pipe above flange.
http://img17.allegroimg.pl/photos/oryginal/48/13/87/07/4813870732
Then this.. I see it has electronic idle stabilisation.
http://img17.allegroimg.pl/photos/oryginal/48/44/83/51/4844835118
Regards.
RE: What pump is it? - dieselmeken - 12-08-2014
Use this one
http://img17.allegroimg.pl/photos/oryginal/48/13/87/07/4813870732
The other one have a ELR magnet that will bee in the way.
RE: What pump is it? - Petar - 12-08-2014
Both will work but the second pump has altitude compensation that can be swapped to an ALDA for a turbo application.What are you planning to do with them ? Both will work but the one with Electronic idle control is newer and likely has higher RS number - which means better cam. I would go with the second pump if i were you.
Disregard what i said. Dieselmeken knows it better.
RE: What pump is it? - starynovy - 12-08-2014
The word from Dieselmeken himself put confidence in my purchase. Thanks! I understand that this pump comes with 5.5mm elements? (found its complete plate 0400075986 PES5M55C320 RS 153 RSF 350-2300 M 55/3)
RE: What pump is it? - baldur - 12-08-2014
Yes afaik no mechanical M pump comes with elements bigger than 5.5mm
RE: What pump is it? - DiseaselWeasel - 12-08-2014
ELR? I see ARA on second pump
RE: What pump is it? - Petar - 12-08-2014
(12-08-2014, 12:06 PM)DiseaselWeasel ELR? I see ARA on second pump
I see both
Take a close look down on the rear cover on the governor.
I forgot that the 605 has that oil to coolant heat exchanger and that ELR would get in the way
RE: What pump is it? - stig - 12-09-2014
So, a pump from an NA engine which has an ADA, can be used on a turbo engine, but the ADA just needs to be changed to accept the boost pipe from the manifold, is that correct? Or do the internals of the IP need to be changed as well?
RE: What pump is it? - Petar - 12-09-2014
(12-09-2014, 02:03 AM)stig So, a pump from an NA engine which has an ADA, can be used on a turbo engine, but the ADA just needs to be changed to accept the boost pipe from the manifold, is that correct? Or do the internals of the IP need to be changed as well?
Actually the ADA has to be removed and then an ALDA has to be installed instead of it.
A non turbo pump will also work in a turbo application but it will smoke if you floor it off boost.
All that ALDA does is restrict fuel until boost builds.
RE: What pump is it? - stig - 12-09-2014
Hi Petar, thanks for that. So the ALDA is a direct replacement on top of the pump, no internals need to be changed/modified?
RE: What pump is it? - CRD4x4 - 12-09-2014
(12-09-2014, 05:57 AM)Petar A non turbo pump will also work in a turbo application but it will smoke if you floor it off boost.
All that ALDA does is restrict fuel until boost builds.
Would a supercharged 60x smoke without an ALDA (using a non-turbocharged 603 IP)?
If there's boost already present then there's nothing for an ALDA to do. Correct?
RE: What pump is it? - barrote - 12-09-2014
Would a supercharged 60x smoke without an ALDA (using a non-turbocharged 603 IP)?
If there's boost already present then there's nothing for an ALDA to do. Correct?
[/quote]
hello there
Incorrect:
the engine will smoke always when the fuel is too much for the air available inside the cylinders.
whenever the IP Governor is outside stock settings (ex:605N/A 35cc at full throtle)
lets say 50cc full trotle the engine will blow smoke , same engine half trotle wont blow any smoke , reason IP gov is delivering 25cc, below max stock. (control fuel by foot)
ALDA device controls this auto. in such a way that u can open full throtle and u dont have black smoke.
for instance in my pump, i set the pump in such a way that full throtle gives 70cc, but when i want to go STD, i press a switch and it becomes 90cc. (at the pedal)
for DD i have another switch wich limits full fuel at around 55cc. wich is good for economy.
correct:
removing the ALDA or ADA wont increase fuel. may apear some smoke in the low rev´s , some people like it.
regards.
RE: What pump is it? - starynovy - 12-09-2014
I had LDA removed from VE pump and as said above, you will have to "know" your car. As too much pedal in low RPMs will result in smoke. BMW M21 N/A also had this altitude correction, more vacuum=more fuel. What should I do about it on this pump so it doesnt restrict fuel? Connect to vacuum?
We are tlaking about this, to be clear.. diapraghm on top is altitude correction and the other on right side is shut off if I am not mistaken.
http://img17.allegroimg.pl/photos/oryginal/48/13/87/07/4813870732
RE: What pump is it? - Petar - 12-09-2014
(12-09-2014, 05:34 PM)starynovy I had LDA removed from VE pump and as said above, you will have to "know" your car. As too much pedal in low RPMs will result in smoke. BMW M21 N/A also had this altitude correction, more vacuum=more fuel. What should I do about it on this pump so it doesnt restrict fuel? Connect to vacuum?
We are tlaking about this, to be clear.. diapraghm on top is altitude correction and the other on right side is shut off if I am not mistaken.
http://img17.allegroimg.pl/photos/oryginal/48/13/87/07/4813870732
On that pump there is no altitude correction.
The diaphragm on the right side is vacuum idle increase for cold starts.
The shutoff is on the top.
RE: What pump is it? - starynovy - 12-10-2014
Perfect, one less dead weight to worry about.
RE: What pump is it? - barrote - 12-10-2014
(12-09-2014, 05:34 PM)starynovy I had LDA removed from VE pump and as said above, you will have to "know" your car. As too much pedal in low RPMs will result in smoke. BMW M21 N/A also had this altitude correction, more vacuum=more fuel. What should I do about it on this pump so it doesnt restrict fuel? Connect to vacuum?
We are tlaking about this, to be clear.. diapraghm on top is altitude correction and the other on right side is shut off if I am not mistaken.
http://img17.allegroimg.pl/photos/oryginal/48/13/87/07/4813870732
come on !!! u have a screw on top of that full position to one side eliminates the efect of the aneroid capsule.( unscrew the bolt of) if u want to be faster aplly boost to the capsule is the same as having the screw out.
VE pumps work in dif manner , if they are fully mechanical u can play with the max fuel from the ouside and try.
basically u take a screw driver and a 10mm wrench, and in 10 min one can have max fuel.
wich has nothing to do with M pums
RE: What pump is it? - starynovy - 12-10-2014
*13mm wrench.. give me time, I had VE pumps sorted out for good.. but these M pumps are quite different as you say.
RE: What pump is it? - barrote - 12-10-2014
so what is the deal with the M pump, besides u can´t tune in the car , and for a good tune is necessary a bench test, is the same principle as a VE for IDI. for DI is another matter, but i dont think u want to discuss about that.
ARA or ALDA is the same principle if the pump governor is fitted with the device.
ARA reduces fueling in function of altitude. ALDA increases fuel in function of boost. u can do the same with one or the other.
ec in a IP with 6mm elements, gov set for 90cc , u can reduce 20cc with the ADA capsule. will work the same if u have ALDA. the gov can be set to either 70cc or 90cc, at 90cc alda will do nothing if gov is set to 70cc and boost on alda u may achieve 90cc.
any question feel free to ask
kisses and hugs
RE: What pump is it? - starynovy - 12-12-2014
Time for questions is here.. Damned idiot sent me different pump than that on image suggested to buy. Its still PES5M 55C 320 RS 170 but newer style. It has ARA on top, and ELR? on bottom- yes that "magnet" Dieselmeken warned about getting in the way. So what are my options? Will it fit OM605 as is? Can I remove magnet and put blanking plate instead of it?
Regards.
RE: What pump is it? - barrote - 12-12-2014
yes, it will work on the 605.
and it will not hit anything, maybe u have to remove oil/water heat exchanger if your engine has one at the oil filter, in order to install the pump.
what dieselmeken was speaking about is governor settings inside. Governors without the ELR actuator have a wider range for fuel increase.
maybe u will do better with the ARA device instead of the ALDA, u can ad vac or boost to the ADA and control it throgh the EGR system.
any dought about it pm me and i post a sketch of my seting in the fórum.
regards.
RE: What pump is it? - starynovy - 12-13-2014
Now this makes me sad.. I will open the pump as I am planing on resealing it prior to installing in engine and see if I can delete that ELR selenoid. How much of adjustment range it takes away? I was hoping that swaping 6mm and maxing it out will net some 200-250PS but now I have worries.
RE: What pump is it? - barrote - 12-13-2014
from what i have seen in mr dieselmeken vídeos 6mm elements dont go beon 115cc 120cc, i have those in my pump and i couldn´t check how much they were able to.
be prepared to have problems with idle, or return to idle , beon 100cc.
good luck
RE: What pump is it? - starynovy - 12-13-2014
I see, and what is estimated power with 100ccm of fuel?
RE: What pump is it? - baldur - 12-14-2014
5000RPM on a 5 cylinder = 750.000 injection events per hour.
At 100 uL/injection that's 75L/hr.
A litre of fuel weighs 1.8 pounds so that's 135lb/hr of fuel per hour.
If you have the air and the fuel is injected timely for an efficient combustion your BSFC should be in the region of 0.40 lb/hp/hr and 135/0.40 = 337hp
If your combustion is inefficient as it probably will be on a pump maxed out due to long injection duration you'll get more like 0.50 lb/hp/hr which would give you 135/0.50 = 270hp
RE: What pump is it? - barrote - 12-14-2014
nice way of see things.....
why not give us a map of thousand injection events /hr X HP
regards
RE: What pump is it? - baldur - 12-15-2014
(12-14-2014, 02:56 PM)barrote nice way of see things.....
why not give us a map of thousand injection events /hr X HP
regards
Sure, I have a better idea. I made a calculator for it, you can input the injection quantity, specific gravity of the fuel (I used 0.82 which is what I measured my locally available diesel to be when setting up my dyno), BSFC and engine speed. FWIW I have measured BSFC of a clean running automotive diesel running on my engine dyno at 0.40lbs/hr/hp at medium speed. At high speed your BSFC will be higher if your combustion is not efficient, any smoke or extended injection duration will put BSFC through the roof. My OM662LA tech info says 0.47lb/hr/hp at 4000RPM for the turbo version at 120hp. 0.39 at 2000RPM.
http://foo.is/calc/dieselpower.html
RE: What pump is it? - barrote - 12-15-2014
i see, so in your calculator , engine eficiency, nr of valves , heat conversion to KW, tq ability , does not matter much ?
only quantity of fuel?
did i got it right , or u just made a calculator for MB engines ?
RE: What pump is it? - baldur - 12-15-2014
(12-15-2014, 02:30 PM)barrote i see, so in your calculator , engine eficiency, nr of valves , heat conversion to KW, tq ability , does not matter much ?
only quantity of fuel?
did i got it right , or u just made a calculator for MB engines ?
BSFC is the magic number that covers all of those factors. The calculator is just to help get a feel for the relationship between injection quantity and the potential horsepower to be made with that much fuel if you are able to burn all of it. If you have black smoke at full throttle you won't have a BSFC in the 0.4s. Try 0.6 for visible smoke and 1.0 if you can't see anything in the rear view mirror at full throttle.
Brake Specific Fuel Consumption measures how efficient the engine is at turning the fuel into power. Commonly measured in pounds per horsepower per hour or kilograms per kilowatt-hour. An engine that has a BSFC of 0.4 at full load and puts out 100 horsepower will consume 40 pounds per hour when held flat out.
At most efficient conditions a modern diesel might be in the 0.35 area. I'd expect an OM605 properly tuned to be maybe 0.45 at 5000RPM with a good efficient turbo. Higher revs will have worse BSFC and anything that increases the engine's friction or requires power to pump air (pumping losses) will hurt BSFC.
RE: What pump is it? - barrote - 12-15-2014
i got it , so according to your calculator my 90cc pump will put out over 200HP , how much did u said?
if i have no smoke in the rear? well what u mean by visible smoke?
well my engine rocks but 200HP i dont think .
i´ll se what i have to do besides to got 250hp
RE: What pump is it? - baldur - 12-15-2014
Yes a 90cc pump should put out close to 250hp on a 5 cylinder with the right turbo and timing. Possibly even more if you go for high revs.
RE: What pump is it? - barrote - 12-15-2014
what about with a gt2359v at 1.8 bar, ported head , 20x70x8 intercooler, pc opened reasonably, injectors at 150 bar, injection timming at 18.5 , exaust 70mm and a few other trics wich i dont remember anymore
250 nep not even close, maybe 180, i did not measure but i estimate around 180.
maybe i´m missing something one never knows! do have any idea how to improve?
RE: What pump is it? - raysorenson - 12-15-2014
Thanks for the calculator and the BSFC info
RE: What pump is it? - Petar - 12-15-2014
(12-15-2014, 04:45 PM)barrote what about with a gt2359v at 1.8 bar, ported head , 20x70x8 intercooler, pc opened reasonably, injectors at 150 bar, injection timming at 18.5 , exaust 70mm and a few other trics wich i dont remember anymore
250 nep not even close, maybe 180, i did not measure but i estimate around 180.
maybe i´m missing something one never knows! do have any idea how to improve?
My guess that you are making 200-230 Hp.
180Hp sounds way too low, that is what the stock engine makes with a remap (75cc of fuel)
RE: What pump is it? - barrote - 12-16-2014
[/quote]
My guess that you are making 200-230 Hp.
180Hp sounds way too low, that is what the stock engine makes with a remap (75cc of fuel)
[/quote]
i dont know that, i gess i have to go in the dino device! any how having over 200HP would be amasing , the engine really pulls well but once i had a 220HP(Subaru wrx) gasoline car and does not feell nothing alike.
in the next few days i´ll be working on having 2bar pressure. something i CAN get now, but the engine stall´s around 4k rpm.
i did not change max idle in my pump, was something i couldn´t do at the time, dont know if it is related or it is EGP too high.
just a question for u, what would be a "ideal" EGP for 2bar boost and prevent the stall at high speed?
RE: What pump is it? - starynovy - 12-18-2014
Forget that turbo, its just too small for 200HP on prechamber unit. I am not saying it wont make it, but high EMPs and said stalling will come along. I had same experience with 2256V and since its even smaller it stalled sooner, like 3600RPM I shifted gear up no sense revving it higher.
RE: What pump is it? - barrote - 12-18-2014
hum, it is not that bad.... 2359 is not a 2256, in size is a bit bigger, almost 1/4 bigger. by looking at it and by comparison.
in the last few days i did install the exaust system, humm 70mm all the way and imagine i have a new problem now!!! a clutch problem and i have the slk230 kom clutch new from the shop. now i starting to belive that i have 200hp plus.
the stall disapeared, the engine is reving up normal, wont climb fast past 4500 , but that´s the max idle problem i was talking about .
my experience now is that VNT turbos dont go well with high Back pressure, past the turbine, actually it makes the turbine stall very soon.
i´m still missing a few things in my build, i´m missing a very important matter with the intake manifold. i´ll post some findings after my build is finished.
thanks and regards.