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+--- Thread: Spoolup valve for turbo (/showthread.php?tid=6123)
Spoolup valve for turbo - tgg416 - 01-10-2015
Anyone tried this spoolup valve for turbos on their Mercedes diesel engine ?
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?602684-SP-Quick-Spool-Valve-FAQ-and-Instructions-Thread
http://www.dieselperformance.com/index.php/product/index/255P
http://compturbo.com/spotlights/diverter-valve
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - Turbo - 01-10-2015
A modern VNT like garrett GTD serie turbo will out perform as a technology spool valve any day, specially a DAVNT since it has lower exhasut pressure. A spool valve come better to place for gasoline engine where temperature is so high that VNT can not be used, if you do not have a high temperature unit like used in some engines at lemans.
But there is also some special turbo like the borg warner EFR7163
http://www.evoxforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273897
that do things that other turbo for now can not do
It comes done to exactly how you take advantages of the benefits
the spool valve will make the turbo spool quicker but back presure will increase, be aware of the surge limit of the turbo, if it is reached it does not matter matter if it spools quicker. Then you need to elaborate with the intake to make the compressor resist surge better
And if something lose in the spool valve mechanism and go in the turbo, it is all good night and pain, there has been some problem with quality of the actuator on some valves as fare as I know
(01-10-2015, 05:43 AM)tgg416 Anyone tried this spoolup valve for turbos on their Mercedes diesel engine ?
http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?602684-SP-Quick-Spool-Valve-FAQ-and-Instructions-Thread
http://www.dieselperformance.com/index.php/product/index/255P
http://compturbo.com/spotlights/diverter-valve
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - MTUPower - 01-10-2015
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
While a good VNT/VGT turbo is better than a "spool up tool", controlling the newer turbo when installed on a older engine has been problem plagued, time consuming, without widespread success. In other words the VNT/VGT turbos do not work on diesel engines which are not installed with one from the factory. This forum's member have tried for nearly a decade to do this with very limited success. It's not just MB engines- very few Cummins, Ford or Chevy truck owners have retrofitted VGT turbo's with success.
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - Turbo - 01-10-2015
well I have not that much experience with VGT turbos since I like VNT better of the principal of operation, the one I have used has worked well, the one I have seen fail has used old turbos like GTA or very strange engineering but what Do I know. Old things has limited performance. But how you control a vnt is a key factor to have succes
the bigger problem is first to find a right turbo, and then,to atlest to me, affordable price, and since compressor maps of these turbo in dreams guesses can make a lot on end result. garrett GTD series is reasonably nice but is sometime hard to discover, on TDI club there is some people that quite good, look at
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=300010&highlight=turbo+gtd+vnt
but it is also good to do like dave in
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=254284&page=11
(01-10-2015, 10:28 AM)MTUPower ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
While a good VNT/VGT turbo is better than a "spool up tool", controlling the newer turbo when installed on a older engine has been problem plagued, time consuming, without widespread success. In other words the VNT/VGT turbos do not work on diesel engines which are not installed with one from the factory. This forum's member have tried for nearly a decade to do this with very limited success. It's not just MB engines- very few Cummins, Ford or Chevy truck owners have retrofitted VGT turbo's with success.
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - MTUPower - 01-10-2015
Turbo- could you list how many people have a successful VNT or VGT turbo installed on a OM617 or OM60X engine and how much work they did installing and controlling it? How much HP and TQ do they have?
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - raysorenson - 01-10-2015
Olefejer has been selling and using his controller for years. He's posted detailed info on how it works and has recently updated it to CAN control as well as the old backpressure vs. boost vs. throttle position input setup.
Additionally, Turbo's info isn't quite up to date. Porsche has been using what they call "VTG" in the 911 for a while with success.
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - Turbo - 01-11-2015
I did use two GTB2056vl on a om606 long time ago, it was not that bad, but I have no figures how much it was at that time, perhaps something like 330-390hp and torque was nice to drive a trailer, define good success? Of course it was not a monster that scare the living daylight out of you and drive away from some porsche and Ferraris like one om606. I have encountered other people with success on om606 engine with VNT
(01-10-2015, 11:00 PM)raysorenson Olefejer has been selling and using his controller for years. He's posted detailed info on how it works and has recently updated it to CAN control as well as the old backpressure vs. boost vs. throttle position input setup.
Additionally, Turbo's info isn't quite up to date. Porsche has been using what they call "VTG" in the 911 for a while with success.
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - raysorenson - 01-11-2015
I used the word success in reference to the 911 gas burner. 2.7s to 60 in a Turbo S that comes with a warranty for the dentists is good, right?
The problem with VNT for the 606 and 603 engines is that the readily available HE351ve is so big it nearly defeats the purpose of VNT. The best sized turbo is the HE431ve but it's hard to find used and expensive to buy new. Add the price of a controller and manifold, then the price of the build is very high.
OM616 uses one on his OM616 and he claims to be happy with the results. Low EBP at cruising speeds and good response.
You cant just slap a VNT on with a boost controller and call it finished. That's what gives VNT's a bad name.
Turbo, how did you control your twin VNT's?
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - mantahead - 01-11-2015
![[Image: utf-8BSU1HMDA2MzUtMjAxMTExMjMtMTIwMi5qcGc.jpg]](http://s1213.photobucket.com/user/mantahead1/media/utf-8BSU1HMDA2MzUtMjAxMTExMjMtMTIwMi5qcGc.jpg.html)
here is experiment i did on om605 with hx35, standard exhaust manifold
18cm ex housing and then i blocked off 1 scroll,
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - MTUPower - 01-11-2015
(01-10-2015, 11:00 PM)raysorenson Olefejer has been selling and using his controller for years. He's posted detailed info on how it works and has recently updated it to CAN control as well as the old backpressure vs. boost vs. throttle position input setup.I've posted here and in other forums my search to buy a VNT set-up which I can install on my '84 wagon. No one responded. I haven't seen widespread success in installing VNT's on the 617 or 60X engines, most are time consuming efforts which seem to be a labor of love not highly desired results. Could you post a link to where I can buy and relatively easily install a VNT system on my car?
Additionally, Turbo's info isn't quite up to date. Porsche has been using what they call "VTG" in the 911 for a while with success.
(01-11-2015, 09:06 AM)mantahead here is experiment i did on om605 with hx35, standard exhaust manifoldIs that a dyno run with one of the scroll blocking systems? If so is the TQ reading an increase and earlier in the rpm? What system did you use and what engine is this for?
18cm ex housing and then i blocked off 1 scroll,
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - DiseaselWeasel - 01-11-2015
Well most people that DO stuff hand in the garage and just do, instead of writing in the internets and looking for ready-made stuff to buy (don't bother - it doesn't exist). Stop typing and get it done!
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - Duncansport - 01-11-2015
(01-11-2015, 09:06 AM)mantahead here is experiment i did on om605 with hx35, standard exhaust manifoldIs that a dyno run with one of the scroll blocking systems? If so is the TQ reading an increase and earlier in the rpm? What system did you use and what engine is this for?
18cm ex housing and then i blocked off 1 scroll,
[/quote]
Read his post again, OM605 with a HX35 blocking off on side/scroll. I dont think the 20Ft/lbs 400RPM earlier is worth the 30+HP drop.
Our biggest booboo in this community is NOT using properly size PERFORMANCE turbos. Were all looking for amazing results using stock dodge turbos or some random turbo. Not that im any different :-) I have a HE351CW mounted on my OM605..
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - MTUPower - 01-11-2015
^^^^^^^^^^
yeah I read that but it really didn't make sense to do what he described- just as you pointed out.
as for the post before telling me to just do it, I laugh. Not everyone has the time or the tools to re-engineer and install. Trying to insult someone who wants to buy a ready made system is childish. If we go there then why don't those people make their own turbos? After all shouldn't they just spend more time and fabricate their own engine blocks as well?
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - Turbo - 01-11-2015
mechanical, a mix between boot pressure and how much gas you have turn on
Turbo, how did you control your twin VNT's?
[/quote]
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - raidaru - 01-11-2015
MTUpower is right, I spent hours on inthernet looking for infos about mechanical VNT controller, but found only half assed solutions, always with drawbacks. I am sure it can be done, but no one capable really cares too much about it. I am sure there are a lot of people who would use them on their older cars, the reliability of old cars with throtle response of new ones ............ almost perfect! Someone like Myna, Dieselmeken, Herlevi and others should be able to do it! (bent rods, broken trannys from the low end torque, that's not their problem anymore
)
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - mantahead - 01-11-2015
(01-11-2015, 01:06 PM)MTUPower ^^^^^^^^^^it was an experiment to see what the quick spool valve was going to achieve,
yeah I read that but it really didn't make sense to do what he described- just as you pointed out.
as for the post before telling me to just do it, I laugh. Not everyone has the time or the tools to re-engineer and install. Trying to insult someone who wants to buy a ready made system is childish. If we go there then why don't those people make their own turbos? After all shouldn't they just spend more time and fabricate their own engine blocks as well?
only i would of had the better spool up with the same bhp result as open turbo(maybe)
the best of both worlds.
back pressure would have been high with that scroll blocked off.
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - Petar - 01-11-2015
(01-11-2015, 05:42 PM)mantahead(01-11-2015, 01:06 PM)MTUPower ^^^^^^^^^^it was an experiment to see what the quick spool valve was going to achieve,
yeah I read that but it really didn't make sense to do what he described- just as you pointed out.
as for the post before telling me to just do it, I laugh. Not everyone has the time or the tools to re-engineer and install. Trying to insult someone who wants to buy a ready made system is childish. If we go there then why don't those people make their own turbos? After all shouldn't they just spend more time and fabricate their own engine blocks as well?
only i would of had the better spool up with the same bhp result as open turbo(maybe)
the best of both worlds.
back pressure would have been high with that scroll blocked off.
Maybe if you just kept one scroll blocked until say 1 bar boost and then opened it then it would make same power with better spool ??
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - raysorenson - 01-12-2015
(01-11-2015, 06:13 PM)Petar Maybe if you just kept one scroll blocked until say 1 bar boost and then opened it then it would make same power with better spool ??
Of course. What he's saying is that he didn't have a spool valve installed, he just blocked off one scroll.
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - Hario' - 01-12-2015
Well that's (kinda) how a quick spool valve should be plumbed, with the valve actuator referencing exhaust manifold pressure so when EMP starts to rise over a predetermined pressure (ie when the QSV starts to become an exhaust restriction) the actuator starts to wind the valve open..
With a used HX35 around the 100 mark, then making/fitting a QSV is definitekly the best way to go compared to a VGT/VNT & associated controller surely?
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - MTUPower - 01-12-2015
strange it is of no advantage until 3300 rpm it appears...
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - hooblah - 01-12-2015
He does state he was using the standard exhaust manifold. Perhaps this has a part to play in the 'lag' you speak of. Perhaps not.
There are many variables, you cant make assumptions when all avenues have not been explored and a suitable explanation given.
I'd like to see the test repeated with an equal length manifold or even a log manifold.
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - raysorenson - 01-12-2015
This is an 18cm hot side which is way huge for an HX35. The data at 3300 rpm is not representative of what you would see using a QSV on the typical 12cm housing HX35.
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - hooblah - 01-12-2015
That's true, but Im guessing he used the 18cm version in order to maximise the air flow capability. It all depends on how much fuel he's putting in. Running a QSV on a 12cm would be a bit pointless as it would run into inefficiency well before max power was reached. Correct me if im wrong, but I hear it's only capable of supporting up to 350bhp?
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - Hario' - 01-13-2015
Using an 18cm2 hotside on a 3 litre diesel is like farting into a warehouse.
A QSV on a 12cm2 would be ideal because it would half the area to 6cm2 so approaching the factory KKK 4cm2(?) housing giving reasonable spool/revs.
I dont see how a 12cm2 HX35 would run into 'inefficiency' before max power is reached? Can you elaborate?
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - hooblah - 01-13-2015
No sorry I had a bit of a dumb moment there and I confused myself. Ignore that lol.
RE: Spoolup valve for turbo - Sleek~silver602 - 01-27-2015
DuncanSport when you say a "performance" turbo vs a stock dodge turbo elaborate please. I mean a stock HE351 with the wastegate bored to 1" for better flow up in the 3k+ range it can do 500-525 hp thats not that bad at all for a 9cm housing on a 5.9L engine twice the size of an om606. I think the BW s300 frame turbos with the use of a Diverter valve/ spool valve would work well (s357 maybe 57/65/.70 twin scroll). I will be talking we my tuner that does my EFI for my cummins he owns a turbo company and can get any BW turbo see what he thinks.
Edit: Sorry if i just jumped in and im sure theres a difference between bigger diesesl especially a cummins 5.9/6.7 so if my train of thought is wrong for this engine please let me know and ill do more reading then commenting tell im up to speed.