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+--- Thread: 606 high gets? Why so? (/showthread.php?tid=6205)
606 high gets? Why so? - elvis100 - 02-05-2015
I've only posted here a few times so please forgive the long question 1st time out. My G's on the road with its 606 turbo engine. Very pleased so far. Quite a long job as I had no diesel experience to date other than blowing up a 603! Now the exhaust is fitted power is up and pretty smooth. Anyway here's what I have : stock m pump with 5.5elements. Max screw rpm at max 5500. It won't rev that high on the road. Fuel turned up about 1.5 turns. Any higher and the idles not good. Torque control more or less standard. Idle is fine at 7-800rpm. Lower and it stalls too easily. Turbo is stock but has a 14psi pressure actuator and a boost control valve spring. I'm Getting 17-18psi boost maybe more. It's turned down to about 14 now. Running front bumper mounted intercooler like factory G300. It had an auto box and changes at 4000 rpm as it should on full throttle. Getting high egt about 1350 on full throttle but not sure if it's to do with the Alda setting, boost pressure or timing. Alda turned 4 turns so is making smoke at full throttle on the driveway. Not sure. What pump timing is set at now. I installed it at 13.5-14 deg according to the pulley marks and have moved it towards the block by 4 turns of the screw. advanced? Not sure what it's set at now. It runs great but too hot egt I think. My guess is to turn the boost back up. I will post some more project photos if I get time. D
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - EvoPeter - 02-05-2015
More boost = lower EGT
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - Hario' - 02-05-2015
606 gets high..? lol
Factory boost is 19psi, if turbo spools and you still get black smoke then back off the fuelling, can't run much more boost than 19 on that KKK micro turbo.
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - Petar - 02-05-2015
Long injection duration from 5,5mm elements is also a factor to consider.
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - barrote - 02-05-2015
yep, the high EGT is probably related with timming, and exaust flow. original 606 turbo is too small for that engine.
For timming, the 14º mark is just a IP installation mark. to get the timming correct, u must find the light device, (the stroboscopic light device) and the GOOD timming is from 16º to 18,5º depending on what u want, high low tq or high rpm.
the thing is that , if u just increase fuel in a diesel engine u will experience smoke and a small increase in tq and probably u going to melt it.
BTW alda screw does not play nothing special in fueling. the alda itself does (alda limits MAX Rack travel until boost is present). unscrew it from the governor and u will understand what i´m talking about.
the rest just scream and we´ll se if it possible to help u.
regards
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - MrHope - 02-05-2015
Mayby would be better with bigger elements.
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - elvis100 - 02-05-2015
Thanks. Here's what i did today... experimented with the boost cntroller on the road. Set to max boost, Got too hot and boostup to about 17psi. set it somewhat lower and making about 14psi. On the road and full throtle temsp are not too bad. Say 1350F at most. I briefly got up to 60 and temp was even lower at part throttle and around 1050F. I'd like to try the timing light. i have one for a petrol car but what do i need to look for to work on a diesel? Can i use the one I have clamped on the injection line? I read somewhere that it works. I'm not looking for mega revs or even mega power. Just want a smooth runner that can pull the G. It does really really well at the moment.
"if turbo spools and you still get black smoke then back off the fuelling". Thats what i thought. So if i turn down the ALda bit it wont smoke as much at the lower rpms when taking off hard from a standstill and this will lower the temps some more? What would the next step up in turbo be? I'm all mechanical now so no electronic ones for me. I'm pure old school baby.
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - elvis100 - 02-05-2015
Also can anyone tell me if moving the pump towards the block head advances or retards the timing? If i installed it at 14 degrees and its as far away from the block as possible but still within the 'slots' does moving it towards the block allow me to get towards 16 degrees or take me to 12 degrees? I installed it like this to clear the linkages from the pipes and wiring for sensors and glow plugs.
I have turned the adjuster 4 revolution which has moved it towards the block. There is a bout 5mm of clearance before it starts touching anything on the head.
D
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - elvis100 - 02-06-2015
Also can anyone tell me if moving the pump towards the block head advances or retards the timing? If i installed it at 14 degrees and its as far away from the block as possible but still within the 'slots' does moving it towards the block allow me to get towards 16 degrees or take me to 12 degrees? I installed it like this to clear the linkages from the pipes and wiring for sensors and glow plugs.
I have turned the adjuster 4 revolution which has moved it towards the block. There is a bout 5mm of clearance before it starts touching anything on the head.
D
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - barrote - 02-06-2015
hello,
1- the light device from gas car will work in your diesel car.
plug power from batery, intall the probe at the injector head in the line, u must have a probe for that diameter of line( probe will pick up injector opening) u should read OT at crank shaft. when u have the OT Reading check how many degrees, moving the pump away from the block will reduce degrees, so to say retard timing. MB say 16º good is 18º (every engine is one engine ) , advance the timing will produce more TQ in low revs.
2- the first thing u do in a diesel tunning is , increase fuel, after exaust pipe, after increase boost, after use of BIG intercooler.
in a MB tuning , first u change pump elements at least for 6mm, then u can increase fuel. after change turbo so that u can increase boost.
when u are able of having 2BAR boost , and 100cc IP, u can start thinking of head job, exaust job, and many other "mickey mouse" things.
for a 606, i would have a set of GT 20thies or 2 GT2253V, one GT2359V, or GT2559V is a bit small.
stock turbo wont work is too small, maybe 2 stock ones.
regards
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - elvis100 - 02-06-2015
Thanks. I'll try the timing. I must be running at about 15 degrees now? What is the amount of adjustment range for the pump? 2 degrees 3 degrees? You say 2 bar? Aren't pistons starting to melt and things getting very hot in a std. 606 at this point? If I get good boost of say 15 psi and egt are kept at say 1300f or lower for continuous running( probably 80mph in heavy G) will this be ok? Also I notice that egt drops once car is warmed up. Got no more than 1150 on long uphill climb today..
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - barrote - 02-07-2015
EGT temp for a engine like that, should be around 550Cº for continuous hard driving, every now and then 650ºC , peak 750Cº, and the engine will last.
2BAR is nothing compared to what some fellows are doing here. i run between 1.8 and 2 BAR. my engine is week. was N/A before.
The full range of the pump should be around 10º degrees. if u assembled the pump at 14º with the lock tool or the lights device u have at least 10º each side.
15 Psi is 1 BAR , even that small turbo should be able to produce 1.3 without too much EGP.
the high egt´s are related with timing and EGP, as said before.
regards
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - elvis100 - 02-09-2015
Thanks. So as a guess how many degrees does each turn of the 8mm adjuster screw clockwise or anticlockwise advance retard the timing?
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - barrote - 02-09-2015
F$#$& i dont know , and it is of no use, besides the turning device usually has a lot of play.
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - elvis100 - 02-28-2015
(02-09-2015, 07:41 PM)barrote F$#$& i dont know , and it is of no use, besides the turning device usually has a lot of play.
Ok. Running sweet now. Alda set at approx 1.5 turns from factory std. Boost controller is maxed at 14-15 psi tops. How can I increase it some more? I don't run this high even when cruising at 70-75 mph. It's about 10 or under. It would be nice to have a bit more power when revving up to the 4k auto shift point. The waste gate actuator is a 14psi one.
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - barrote - 02-28-2015
hy there,
why do u talk about the ALDA!!! the ALDA plays no role in fueling!!! ALDA only limits rack travel until boost is present. most ALDA devices start to move at .3 BAR and full open at .7BAR. ALDA capsule is to be left alone in factory specs , in such a way that it can work as it should.
threre isn´t much u can do with the 5.5 mm element IP, but u can increase max fuel delivery and load fuel. MAX RPM too , but i dont know how that works , i dont know for sure.
i have a paper about RSF governor, with few explanations. i can sent it to u.
if u find a waste gate actuator of 1.5 bar u´ll have more boost or not, boost from a certain point on is directly proportional to fueling.
any how u can find a wire, any kind of metal wire, and lock the waste gate closed, like that u can see how much boost is your small turbo be able to provide.
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - elvis100 - 05-16-2015
Ok so what is the safe maximum boost I should run at? Remember I'm only running with std. 5.5mm elements. I will either buy a bigger waste gate or wire it shut and keep an eye on the gauges. My maximum possible boost with my current waste gate is about 15-17 psi. Does anyone know how much boost the standard turbo can put out ??
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - barrote - 05-17-2015
hehe, safe boost ,
hum threre´s no safe boost , boost it as much u can, i pretty often run 1.5 in cruise when small climb it does reach 2bar wich is the limit i have .
beeing 2 BAR 29psi. if u can afford to use 29 why not!!! u should only be aware of high coolant temperature, EGT, and oil temp. that is what will kill your engine.
regards
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - elvis100 - 05-17-2015
(05-17-2015, 05:22 AM)barrote hehe, safe boost ,
hum threre´s no safe boost , boost it as much u can, i pretty often run 1.5 in cruise when small climb it does reach 2bar wich is the limit i have .
beeing 2 BAR 29psi. if u can afford to use 29 why not!!! u should only be aware of high coolant temperature, EGT, and oil temp. that is what will kill your engine.
regards
Thanks barrote. I adjusted my boost controller. I actually slackened it off so that it would have a lower limit. Its a simple ball valve T with a screw. It made a huge difference. The max boost is still the same 16 psi if i hold it in gear (auto) but it sounds different and really pulls well now. the controller was restricting things. I may get a bigger waste gate actuator like a 20 psi one. Exhaust next. You using a 3 inch one?
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - barrote - 05-17-2015
70mm pipe staight out the exaust, with a small mufler at the end. . is well more than enough at least for my 605 .
at the moment i´m runing out of gearbox solutions.
regards.
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - barrote - 05-19-2015
70mm pipe staight out the exaust, with a small mufler at the end. . is well more than enough at least for my 605 .
at the moment i´m runing out of gearbox solutions.
regards.
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - elvis100 - 05-20-2015
So I should just aim for highest boost with lowest oil, water and EGT temp's ? Max safe constant EGT is 1200_1250f? I think I would have to be driving it flat out to get it there constantly
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - barrote - 05-22-2015
how much is that in Celcius?
the thing is my engine runs low EGT way too low i think, i can pull up Hill with a 120cc 7.5 mm pump the max it reaches is 400ºC.
in the past was way diff, before i changed to a GT2359V.
i can´t push too much on my engine since before the STD started it was a N/A , after 3 gearboxes, i supose the next step will be bent rods or melted pistons ,
dont want that.
regarding EGT´s 550ºC continuously is a good mark. i have peaked at 850ºC in the past and the engine is still there.
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - elvis100 - 05-23-2015
(05-22-2015, 04:33 PM)barrote how much is that in Celcius?
the thing is my engine runs low EGT way too low i think, i can pull up Hill with a 120cc 7.5 mm pump the max it reaches is 400ºC.
in the past was way diff, before i changed to a GT2359V.
i can´t push too much on my engine since before the STD started it was a N/A , after 3 gearboxes, i supose the next step will be bent rods or melted pistons ,
dont want that.
regarding EGT´s 550ºC continuously is a good mark. i have peaked at 850ºC in the past and the engine is still there.
I removed the connection to the waste gate...... Wow! Even with my standard engine and pump boost is now up and temps down. It makes 17.5 psi now. Max temp I got was 1200f. It has more boost right thru the Rev range and flys up hills. Coolant temp is getting high but it runs steady at 90-95 degrees. Maybe 100 after a maximum effort of 5 mins flat out up a steep hill. I will try timing and exhaust next.
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - barrote - 05-23-2015
17.5 psi that is nothing ..... 30 psi is something .....
be aware of coolant temps above 100, usually head gasket is very sensitive to that.
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - elvis100 - 07-09-2016
Barose. Where would I find your turbo? What car did it come from? Any w463 G wagon owners with 606 know if it will fit in the engine bay.Do you have pictures???
RE: 606 high gets? Why so? - barrote - 07-11-2016
hello there ,
Mr elvis, wich car do u own? there´s a huge diference in choosing the turbo for a 606...
the GT23V usually is from MB OM613 , and OM648, 320CDI. The later have a electrically actuated one.
This turbo is a bit too small for the 6 cyl 606, has EGP issues in high RPM. but that can be overcomed quite easily.
many people use the Holset crap HX35W with success, but this thing is a way too big for a stock pump.
anyway , u should upgrade your pump, send me a PM so that i can inlight u in the matter.
regards
Francisco D.