+- STD (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std)
+-- Forum: Tuning (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Engine (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Thread: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? (/showthread.php?tid=6369)
Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - kotka - 03-23-2015
I keep building my lovely G300TD off-roader based on OM606A and faced a boost issue.
Prerequisite:
- OM606A
- both manifolds are custom
- 7.5mm Tomnik plungers
- EFR6258 with 3.4 bar forged actuator
- 3inch exhaust
- big (but chineese) front A/A ic
- 3bar fuel
so all in - boost quickly grows to 2 bar and keeps limited at this level while back pressure reaches 2.2 bar.....black smoke is in place
The lines from exhaust ports to intake ports are checked at 3.5 bars - no leaks.
I'm thinking of stiffer exhause valve springs.....so two questions so far:
1) Where can I buy stiffer exhaust springs?
2) any idea why boost is limited at 2 bar????
here is a video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62lXzllq4zs
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - Booster - 03-23-2015
What size exhaust housing on the turbo?
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - Turbo - 03-23-2015
Nice build with ha nice turbo
stiffer springs you will find at
www.fullrace.com
many have had problem with the waste gate leaking
what exhaust house do you use?
have you triedout this, justmade soething realy fast forlooking atthe overview
http://www.turbos.bwauto.com/aftermarket/matchbot/index.html#version=1.3&displacement=3&CID=183.06&altitude=500&baro=14.502&aat=75&turboconfig=1&compressor=62k80&pt1_rpm=2000&pt1_ve=85&pt1_boost=30&pt1_ie=99&pt1_filres=0.08&pt1_ipd=0.2&pt1_mbp=0.5&pt1_ce=66&pt1_te=75&pt1_egt=1500&pt1_ter=2.24&pt1_pw=8.58&pt1_bsfc=0.43&pt1_afr=11.5&pt1_wts=300&pt1_wd=83&pt1_wd2=74&pt1_wrsin=69033&pt2_rpm=3000&pt2_ve=90&pt2_boost=30&pt2_ie=95&pt2_filres=0.1&pt2_ipd=0.2&pt2_mbp=1&pt2_ce=70&pt2_te=73&pt2_egt=1500&pt2_ter=2.69&pt2_pw=26.09&pt2_bsfc=0.43&pt2_afr=11.5&pt2_wts=320&pt2_wd=83&pt2_wd2=74&pt2_wrsin=73635&pt3_rpm=4000&pt3_ve=90&pt3_boost=30&pt3_ie=95&pt3_filres=0.12&pt3_ipd=0.3&pt3_mbp=1.3&pt3_ce=74&pt3_te=72&pt3_egt=1500&pt3_ter=3&pt3_pw=35.06&pt3_bsfc=0.43&pt3_afr=11.5&pt3_wts=340&pt3_wd=83&pt3_wd2=74&pt3_wrsin=78238&pt4_rpm=5000&pt4_ve=87&pt4_boost=30&pt4_ie=92&pt4_filres=0.15&pt4_ipd=0.4&pt4_mbp=1.5&pt4_ce=76&pt4_te=71&pt4_egt=1500&pt4_ter=3.36&pt4_pw=40.81&pt4_bsfc=0.43&pt4_afr=11.5&pt4_wts=368&pt4_wd=83&pt4_wd2=74&pt4_wrsin=84681&pt5_rpm=6000&pt5_ve=82&pt5_boost=30&pt5_ie=90&pt5_filres=0.18&pt5_ipd=0.5&pt5_mbp=1.8&pt5_ce=72&pt5_te=70&pt5_egt=1500&pt5_ter=3.64&pt5_pw=39.71&pt5_bsfc=0.43&pt5_afr=11.5&pt5_wts=400&pt5_wd=83&pt5_wd2=74&pt5_wrsin=92044&pt6_rpm=7000&pt6_ve=80&pt6_boost=30&pt6_ie=90&pt6_filres=0.2&pt6_ipd=0.6&pt6_mbp=2&pt6_ce=66&pt6_te=70&pt6_egt=1500&pt6_ter=4.23&pt6_pw=39.87&pt6_bsfc=0.43&pt6_afr=11.5&pt6_wts=400&pt6_wd=83&pt6_wd2=74&pt6_wrsin=92044&
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - kotka - 03-23-2015
T25
I use full race shop heavily, but don't know which springs to use provided no spec merc ones in place
www.full-race.com/store/engine-internals/valve-springs-retainers/
I consider kmcams.com/collections/ventilfjaerer-retainere-ventiler/products/mercedes-diesel-om606-ventilfjaerer
But don't know whether they are good ones....
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - TurboTim - 03-23-2015
I had a Chinese intercooler and was getting 9 psi pressure drop, but it was a smaller one. I got a bigger one and that fixed that. Do you have the 31x12x3 one? That is what I am running now and it's around one pound of boost.
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - barrote - 03-23-2015
what turbo do u have ?
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - kotka - 03-23-2015
See above, it is smallest efr
I gonna change ic for a fully custom one with customers core - I hope to get something like 0.2-0.3 bar of boost extra, but it doesn't solve the issue. I see significant boost restriction in the system and can't figure it out
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - barrote - 03-23-2015
have u realized that the issue may be in the turbo.... not many turbos go above 3BAR absolute pressure......
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - kotka - 03-23-2015
The compressor map reads of about 3+ bar....so I hope it can deliver more then 2
))
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - kotka - 03-23-2015
G-wagen is quite small
my Chinese mani is 18x12x3 inch
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - barrote - 03-23-2015
have u realized that the issue may be in the turbo.... not many turbos go above 3BAR absolute pressure......
take a look at the compressor map... http://www.maperformance.com/products/borgwarner_EFR-6258.jpg
the max limit lays around 3.4 absolute , so it is 3.4bar less atmosferic pressure wich is 1 bar , so 2.4 in the gage, acounting for piping loss .2 bar, anf for gage instalation another .2, and in th end u can read 2.1 in the gage as max boost. for a waste gated turbo not bad.
so nothing wrong with it.
why dont u consider twin garret GT18 V like in the 220cdi one each set o 3 cylinders , VGT turbos goes almost to 4 bar absolute
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - kotka - 03-23-2015
Efr is quite quick spool machine. Potentially I consider compound set up but it rather theoretical at the moment
PS - I reached 2.2-2.3 bar a couple of days ago but such boost is not stable at this level - it goes to 2 bar at any condition but 2.2-2.3 is rather rare case....and I want to catch the issue of boost fluctuations
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - Turbo - 03-23-2015
(03-23-2015, 07:17 AM)kotka Efr is quite quick spool machine. Potentially I consider compound set up but it rather theoretical at the moment
PS - I reached 2.2-2.3 bar a couple of days ago but such boost is not stable at this level - it goes to 2 bar at any condition but 2.2-2.3 is rather rare case....and I want to catch the issue of boost fluctuations
look at the calculation I give you before you will properly lern alot by looking at some figures, by klicking you can se what different compressors will do.
there is even a exhaust house A/R 0,8 twin scroll that could be interesting to explore how it would affectthe setup
reagarding fullrace call them and speak with them, they are nice to speak with and often very helpfull
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - Turbo - 03-23-2015
(03-23-2015, 07:17 AM)kotka Efr is quite quick spool machine. Potentially I consider compound set up but it rather theoretical at the moment
PS - I reached 2.2-2.3 bar a couple of days ago but such boost is not stable at this level - it goes to 2 bar at any condition but 2.2-2.3 is rather rare case....and I want to catch the issue of boost fluctuations
look at the calculation I give you before you will properly lern alot by looking at some figures, by klicking you can se what different compressors will do.
there is even a exhaust house A/R 0,8 twin scroll that could be interesting to explore how it would affectthe setup
reagarding fullrace call them and speak with them, they are nice to speak with and often very helpfull
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - kotka - 03-23-2015
I've seen such things in the past - I created turbo calc macro before garrett has introduced its own app
))But I can't catch the robust spool up to 2.3-2.5 bar out of efr 6258.
But anyways - thanks for advice
)) it will probably change my approach to 7163 twin scroll
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - Turbo - 03-23-2015
efr7163 is a mighty fine turbo in how broad the compressor map is but efficency is not that good, but as diagunal turbine if you use gas pulses in thje exhaust it will b with higher efficency but have in mind that borg warner made these for petrol engines, titaniumnidride is lighter then inconel718 but it has to be thinker so efficiancy is going down. A garett VNT of GTD class with ball bearing is not that bad
I have calculated a lot of the efr turbos and they hav some very good stuff to offer but in a diesel when exhaust temperatures is not that critical like at petrol engines VNT is doable it is not that clear what way to gogarretts calculating programe is just redicoulus in my opinion, match bot can calculate garett turbos if you just know what to do
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - Turbo - 03-23-2015
efr7163 is a mighty fine turbo in how broad the compressor map is but efficency is not that good, but as diagunal turbine if you use gas pulses in thje exhaust it will b with higher efficency but have in mind that borg warner made these for petrol engines, titaniumnidride is lighter then inconel718 but it has to be thinker so efficiancy is going down. A garett VNT of GTD class with ball bearing is not that bad
I have calculated a lot of the efr turbos and they hav some very good stuff to offer but in a diesel when exhaust temperatures is not that critical like at petrol engines VNT is doable it is not that clear what way to gogarretts calculating programe is just redicoulus in my opinion, match bot can calculate garett turbos if you just know what to do
it would be interesting to se garettes new GTW turbos compressor maps when they relise them
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - barrote - 03-23-2015
well, do u happen to have maps from the gt series, or where to find them! i´m particulaly interested in the GT2359V found in the C30AMG, and what is the diff from GT2359V found in the 320CDI engine 613. i dream of this info.
regards
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - Turbo - 03-23-2015
If I am not mistaken, the difference between those two turbos is the turbine wheel, read majesty78 about his project and you will find it, I do not remeber it right now.
all VNT is OEM so no information about that is not for public..., I ment if you have normal garrett you can put it in match bot and see how it will do
But nore BW or garrett will provide a tubine map, garrett will at top say maximum efficency. I have only seen a hand full of turbine maps
If you measure inlet and outlet pressure, temperatures and take intoaccount static and dynamic pressures an temperatures yoiu will easy calculate efficency, but non stady ste conditions can trick you
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - kotka - 03-24-2015
Efr 6258 is my first efr family turbo experience. It proved to be fast spooling, very responsive. I changed my mind from garrett 2860rs to smallest efr one based on the efficiency assumptions above and technical solutions bw introduced.
My experience proves it was a right choice for 3 liter diesel engine and 3 ton truck even provided efr family is originally designed for gasoline engines.
I'm curious if the turbo lag between 6258 and 7163 is noticeable.... But I haven't found and comparison yet
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - Turbo - 03-24-2015
You can easy simulate it in the program, the difference is not that big, but the operating range for efr7163 is
If I am not mistaken perrin has tried on a car but gasoline
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - kotka - 03-24-2015
Not correct - he tried the turbo which was never released - 7163 with ar 0.64
The production line consists of ar 0.8+ only
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - Turbo - 03-24-2015
Not Correct, a/r 0,85 singelscroll and twin scroll 0,8 is available
Thresold spoke about maing a nother but I never follow up how it did go
Yes you right about th test but test in the programe, it is very easy
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - kotka - 03-24-2015
You just repeat what I said - no a/r 0.64 but a/rs 0.8+ are available
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - barrote - 03-24-2015
(03-23-2015, 05:00 PM)Turbo If I am not mistaken, the difference between those two turbos is the turbine wheel, read majesty78 about his project and you will find it, I do not remeber it right now.
all VNT is OEM so no information about that is not for public..., I ment if you have normal garrett you can put it in match bot and see how it will do
But nore BW or garrett will provide a tubine map, garrett will at top say maximum efficency. I have only seen a hand full of turbine maps
i see, there must be some difference in the hot part, what i experience in my aplication is a huge increase in EGP above 4000RPM consistent with dificulties in exaust flow exit, and at this stage the vanes are completly open. so any solution to that turbo AMG have done. i suspect is just the housing wich flows better. or maybe something else.
what was the post u´re talking about?
regards
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - kotka - 05-06-2015
To make long story short - my 6258 set up is able to provide 700nm on wheels.
The fuel pressure doesn't really make any difference above 1 bar level.
Next try is 7163
))
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - EDH_Performance - 05-07-2015
(05-06-2015, 11:59 PM)kotka To make long story short - my 6258 set up is able to provide 700nm on wheels.
The fuel pressure doesn't really make any difference above 1 bar level.
Next try is 7163
Have you tried to block the wg completly and then tried?
What is pressure in the exhaust after turbo?
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - kotka - 05-07-2015
2.3-2.5 egp. Egt upto 500c. Tried many ways - max boost 2 bar.
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - baldur - 05-08-2015
Have you pressure tested your system to make sure there are no air leaks?
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - Turbo - 05-08-2015
Kotka have you tried the efr 7163 yet?
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - kotka - 05-10-2015
No leaks upto 3 bar.
7163 fit is on track, I just receied icengineworks modeling system - so pls be patient my 7163 test is on the way
)
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - Turbo - 05-11-2015
Have you tried Borg Warner own match bot program for turbo?
I am looking at efr 7163 as HP turbo or compressor part in another turbo
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - kotka - 05-18-2015
Yes.
I plan a single turbo set up as I target 400hp+ and 700nm++ and no turbolag
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - Turbo - 05-18-2015
what do you pay for a efr7163 twin scroll over there?
RE: Boost is limited at 2 bar....why? - kotka - 05-19-2015
1600 eur