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+--- Thread: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost (/showthread.php?tid=6434)
Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - Evenglass - 04-12-2015
I like many others would like more boost before 2000rpm. I have read that the smaller VNT turbos can accomplish this but there is currently no way to control the vanes on these turbos. With my with my current setup stock pump, kkk turbo, and gearing this engine will never see over 3500rpm. 5-8psi at 2000rpm would be about perfect. Or would an 8mm pump=more fuel make my current turbo boost faster? What are the thoughts on this?
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - CRD4x4 - 04-12-2015
Supercharger!
I'd go into more detail but this site and my phone don't play nicely together.
There's tons of stuff if you search for it.
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - led-panzer - 04-12-2015
Is this a 617 we're talking about?
If you want appreciable boost below 2000 RPM you're talking supercharger, or a compound turbo set up. However, a modified pump will really liven things up pre-boost, and yes it will make the turbo spool considerably faster.
If you do get an 8mm pump (I assume MW, 8mm M is way too much) you'll need to upgrade from the tiny KKK turbo. Really that little hairdryer is bad even for a stock pump, and will choke the engine, high EGT's ect.
Also keep in mind very few people modify these engines for power, almost every setup is unique and there's a ton of pioneering/trial and error to be done. But that's what makes it fun and separates us from the "catalogue builders" that have everything handed to them.
That said, an HE221 with a 6cm exhaust housing would be what I would try. Flows an impressive amount of air for its size, would probably max at ~225hp, and if you're not looking to rev high, the turbine choking at high rpm won't be a huge issue.
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - barrote - 04-12-2015
i´ve been having success with a VNT in my 605. control of thr vanes is done by pressure diferential. yes it does spool quite fast , 1 BAR at 2000, but at 2300 is at 1.8 and at 2500 is at 2 Bar keeping through 5800 wich is the RPM limit under load. in my set up this huge vnt i´m using (60 trim) does not flow too well above 4500 and start to build up EGP. that is what it is the turbine/vanes can´t open more than that.
my solution was to bleed some exaust prior to turbine and it works perfect.
my opinion is that one this VNT´s will spool considerably faster than any other turbo, but to have 1.5 bar at 1500 rpm maybe u should go supercharger.
and keep in mind that the quick response is always directly proportional to the gas flow, more fuel more boost and sooner it arives.
so upgrading the pump may help your needs.
regards
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - Evenglass - 04-12-2015
(04-12-2015, 09:51 AM)CRD4x4 Supercharger!
I'd go into more detail but this site and my phone don't play nicely together.
There's tons of stuff if you search for it.
Any ideas on how to accomplish this?
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - Evenglass - 04-12-2015
(04-12-2015, 09:53 AM)led-panzer Is this a 617 we're talking about?This is exactly the kind of information I was looking for! 20-30 more HP is really all I need (more would also be welcomed). I understand that everything on these engines is secondary to fuel. So do you think it will be absolutely mandatory to change out the KKK when I get (hopefully) a modded IP from Goran?
If you want appreciable boost below 2000 RPM you're talking supercharger, or a compound turbo set up. However, a modified pump will really liven things up pre-boost, and yes it will make the turbo spool considerably faster.
If you do get an 8mm pump (I assume MW, 8mm M is way too much) you'll need to upgrade from the tiny KKK turbo. Really that little hairdryer is bad even for a stock pump, and will choke the engine, high EGT's ect.
Also keep in mind very few people modify these engines for power, almost every setup is unique and there's a ton of pioneering/trial and error to be done. But that's what makes it fun and separates us from the "catalogue builders" that have everything handed to them.
That said, an HE221 with a 6cm exhaust housing would be what I would try. Flows an impressive amount of air for its size, would probably max at ~225hp, and if you're not looking to rev high, the turbine choking at high rpm won't be a huge issue.
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - led-panzer - 04-12-2015
In a word, yes.
When ForcedInduction upgraded to a gt2256v from the stock KKK, he got an increase of 18hp at the wheels, with no change in fueling. Thereby proving that the stock turbo is a restriction to power even with a stock pump.
If you're going to spend the money on an upgraded pump, you need to upgrade the turbo to really make it worth it.
Even if you don't upgrade the pump, you can still make gains by upgrading the turbo. For only 30hp more, I would upgrade the turbo ($5-600?) and max out the stock injection pump and call it a day. Half the price. But of course performance would be exceptional and your potential power much higher by upgrading both.
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - awsrock - 04-13-2015
(04-12-2015, 08:57 PM)led-panzer When ForcedInduction upgraded to a gt2256v from the stock KKK, he got an increase of 18hp at the wheels, with no change in fueling. Thereby proving that the stock turbo is a restriction to power even with a stock pump.
Dave M (GSXR) gained about 13-15 hp on his slightly modded 603 pump simply switching from the KKK to a 55 trim T3. I have done the same on my SDL 603 with no pump mods or full load yet. Pre-boost seemed to breathe better and the top end gained a bit, maybe 5 hp by the butt dyno. I spent $250 on the turbo. I'm running at about 13.5 psi, I think Dave M said he was up to 22 and that was about the limit of it due to EGTs.
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - CRD4x4 - 04-13-2015
I wouldn't discount vnt/vgt as an unfeasible method of achieving quicker boost. The issue I've run into is which parameters should be measured (boost, emp, egt, vac, tps, rack position, etc, etc) to determine what position the actuator should be in and how best to actuate it. The variables involved in a vnt/vgt are so many that I've put off making a solution on my own.
In the USA we can find Garrett GT2256VE easily and usually for cheap because the electronics are fried. So that leaves us with a perfectly sized quick spooling turbo without an easy way to control it mechanically. This is something I'm sure we can resolve.
Also readily available here is the Eaton M90 supercharger. We should have a ready-made solution for these too. They're so plentiful that it'd be stupid to not use them!
As soon as I have a solution for either I'll post it up but don't hold your breath. Busy, busy.
One thing that hasn't been mentioned on this thread is a "quick spool valve" - or whatever - that blocks half of the exhaust entry into the turbo with a butterfly type until boost is achieved then opens.
There are a lot of options but they'd all be custom and probably an evenglass original.
Now get pioneering!
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - Petar - 04-13-2015
IMHO as a bare minimum vnt turbo control should monitor boost and throttle position. If you request full boost at part throttle it will make excessive exhaust pressure and increase fuel consumption a lot. Basically you will have an exhaust brake that works all the time. Boost should be reduced at part throttle. You could also monitor engine rpm and backpressure and for instance limit maximum vane closing at high rpm to prevent boost spikes but that is less important.
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - mushkindiesel - 04-13-2015
So then what I'm hearing is that probably the best turbo upgrade from stock turbo would be to the GT2256V? Or is there a better/easier to install turbo that will make good gains over stock (when boosted right and stuff)?
Thanks.
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - led-panzer - 04-13-2015
GT2256V is VNT, which of course will require some form of control. The compressor is very small as well, I wouldn't use it without an intercooler, and don't expect to make power beyond maybe 4000rpm (backpressure)
A regular wastegated turbo, like a small holset, td04, or something similar would be easier to install and plumb, and would give you better performance than stock.
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - Evenglass - 04-14-2015
So HE221 vs TD04 vs? Would either one be better than the other? One easier to fit than the other? Or is there a third option? What are your opinions rated 1st 2nd 3rd. I'll be pulling the trigger on this soon.
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - ak47is1337 - 04-14-2015
which TD04 were you considering? they came in a lot of flavors. Two you might consider are:
Volvo's often have td04-16t#6 or #7
td04-19t#7 from Volvo or the KKK24 from the Volvo V70/S60 R AWS (300hp) (this one is bigger)
SAAB 9-5's will have td04-15's
I think any of these will be sufficient to max out the stock pump though
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - Captain America - 04-16-2015
Pretty sure I can make at least 9lb at 2000 rpm with my Stock Garrett T3 (60 trim compressor). It is very hard to hold the engine down at that rpm though, haha. Its all fueling man...
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - Evenglass - 04-17-2015
(04-16-2015, 12:06 AM)Captain America Pretty sure I can make at least 9lb at 2000 rpm with my Stock Garrett T3 (60 trim compressor). It is very hard to hold the engine down at that rpm though, haha. Its all fueling man...
I guess what I'm reading translates to this; stock turbo KKK or Garret regardless of fueling is inefficient compared to equally sized modern turbos. Fueling the stock turbo will yield gains but does not solve the inefficiency problem ie back pressure. Turbo upgrade alone would increase efficiency do to less back pressure = more power and likely better mileage. Increased fuel + modern turbo should yeild very good performance. I will most likely install the upgraded pump and work from there (if this fabled pump ever comes to fruition). In the meantime I'll search for the above mentioned turbos in the salvage yards. And idea what cars to search for? And how hard is it to adapt this turbos?
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - ak47is1337 - 04-17-2015
(04-17-2015, 09:41 AM)Evenglass(04-16-2015, 12:06 AM)Captain America Pretty sure I can make at least 9lb at 2000 rpm with my Stock Garrett T3 (60 trim compressor). It is very hard to hold the engine down at that rpm though, haha. Its all fueling man...
I guess what I'm reading translates to this; stock turbo KKK or Garret regardless of fueling is inefficient compared to equally sized modern turbos. Fueling the stock turbo will yield gains but does not solve the inefficiency problem ie back pressure. Turbo upgrade alone would increase efficiency do to less back pressure = more power and likely better mileage. Increased fuel + modern turbo should yeild very good performance. I will most likely install the upgraded pump and work from there (if this fabled pump ever comes to fruition). In the meantime I'll search for the above mentioned turbos in the salvage yards. And idea what cars to search for? And how hard is it to adapt this turbos?
The backpressure problem can be solved with a bigger manifold and a big wastegate, right?
Anyway, the Saab 9-5 aero is a great turbo'ed car for a small high pressure turbo but good luck finding one and it's not all that different from a regular saab anyway. I also heard the newer Audi 3.0 turbo's are good but again rare in yard. If you want my opinion, forget that and search locally for a small cummins/holset like an hx30/hy35 or even an hx35 if you want to keep it later for an upgraded pump. Most yards are going to charge around $100 for a used POS mitsubishi TD04 so why not go with a better design for like maybe $100 more?
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - CRD4x4 - 04-17-2015
Evenglass,
Maybe I'm dumb but I've read through this thread a few times & still don't know what engine we are talking about.
617, 603, 606?
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - Evenglass - 04-17-2015
Om617
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - kashi123 - 04-17-2015
Hi, probably a dumb question but is the saab aero turbo mentioned above, vnt or fixed vane?
Sounds like it might be a nice upgrade for my OM606 in my g wagen with soon to be fitted dieselmeken 7.5mm pump? As always looking for low down grunt, not high revs.
Thanks and apologies for hijacking this thread
Richard
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - ak47is1337 - 04-18-2015
I am pretty sure its a T3 flange, fixed vane mitsubishi TD04, i think -19g or -20g version
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - Evenglass - 04-18-2015
I thought the hx/hy 30-35 are too big? And hard to adapt?
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - ak47is1337 - 04-18-2015
Nope. They are T3 flange. You may have to move some shit around on the left side of the engine bay but it should bold right up. HX35 might be just a tad large for 300 hp but you'll have room to grow later since you are getting 7.5 elements anyway. HX30 or HY35 is probably your best choice for low RPM spool.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/showthread.php?tid=2516
dieselboy here on STD did it already with an HY35 - in the freaking tiny engine bay of the W116 no less.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/showthread.php?tid=2074
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - kmaser - 04-18-2015
I have an HX30 on my Om617a with Tomnik 6.5 elements, it bolts right up and the drain line works without mods as well. Only modified the oil supply line. I have prob 7-8psi by 2000rpm and climbs quickly after that.
OM617A wastegate quick spool modification - Volker407 - 04-18-2015
Did anybody of you already try to block the wastegate control hose connector on the turbo housing and re-route the wastegate control hose to the intake manifold at cylinder 5?
I found that to be a huge improvement in spooling and bottom torque on my engine.
Or in numbers, it improved my 0-100km/h acceleration from 18seconds to 15seconds!
turbo housing connector blocked with a screw
coming from wastegate
with a longer banjo bolt connected to the intake manifold at cylinder 5 near the firewall
Gruß
Volker
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - Evenglass - 04-19-2015
(04-18-2015, 10:56 AM)Volker407 Did anybody of you already try to block the wastegate control hose connector on the turbo housing and re-route the wastegate control hose to the intake manifold at cylinder 5?
I found that to be a huge improvement in spooling and bottom torque on my engine.
Or in numbers, it improved my 0-100km/h acceleration from 18seconds to 15seconds!
turbo housing connector blocked with a screw
coming from wastegate
with a longer banjo bolt connected to the intake manifold at cylinder 5 near the firewall
Gruß
Volker
I'm not sure how this is supposed to improve spooling? That vaccum hose only controls the wastegate, the wastegate has no effect on the speed the turbo builds boost it only dictates the maximum amount of boost and this occurs long after initial spooling. Am I missing something?
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - raysorenson - 04-19-2015
The WG cracks earlier with the boost tapped from the compressor housing.
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - Brewster - 04-21-2015
(04-18-2015, 08:07 AM)ak47is1337 Nope. They are T3 flange. You may have to move some shit around on the left side of the engine bay but it should bold right up. HX35 might be just a tad large for 300 hp but you'll have room to grow later since you are getting 7.5 elements anyway. HX30 or HY35 is probably your best choice for low RPM spool.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/showthread.php?tid=2516
dieselboy here on STD did it already with an HY35 - in the freaking tiny engine bay of the W116 no less.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/showthread.php?tid=2074
Hi, I am kind of in the same thoughts as Evenflow. Have an OM617 in a 300SD that I want a little more power out of before it goes on to transplant in its next vehicle.
Being kind of new here, perhaps someone can suggest where one might find used HX30-35's or an HE221. What is their original application?
How would they compare to the Mitsu TD04 or earlier Garrett T3's from a Volvo?
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - ak47is1337 - 04-21-2015
I can't comment on how they compare to the mitsubishits but look for anything out of a Dodge RAM with the Cummins engines. Holset=Cummins so that should tell you that their turbos were designed and optimized for diesels. The older the application, the smaller the Holset used generally, so the really new Dodges have HE351VE's but I think you can find an HX30 or HY35 in an early 90's truck. Search on Craigslist with keywords like "HX30, HX30w, HY35, Cummins turbo, holset" etc and you'll find something in your area.
To be honest, they are next to impossible to find in junkyards because diesel trucks and even gassers get torn apart for parts quickly and they go for top dollar. You are going to get them from people who upgraded their truck. If you DO find a junkyard in your area that is loaded with tons of Cummins send me a PM and/or set up a post selling used Holsets, lots of people here woud be interested.
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - MTUPower - 04-21-2015
By formulas online using actual performance figures I'm producing close to 175HP in my 617 powered w123 300TD with a stock turbo. I do have a Myna pump and a small underhood intercooler. Frankly I think people shooting for over 225 HP in a 617 are mostly dreamers; very few percentage wise make that HP and post results. Just sayin'. I do like the threads and info.
BTW I see over 7 PSI at 2000 rpm with a max boost around 21.
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - barrote - 04-21-2015
hehe, imagine a 617a running at 5500Rpm fed by a 90cc 7.5 pump
taking acount those formulas shoud be 250HP. puls decent enought.
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - MTUPower - 04-21-2015
(04-21-2015, 01:02 PM)barrote hehe, imagine a 617a running at 5500Rpm fed by a 90cc 7.5 pump
taking acount those formulas shoud be 250HP. puls decent enought.
By that HP they ought to be getting 0-60 times of less than 7 seconds. Who has posted such times for a 617?
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - barrote - 04-21-2015
i dont know how long it takes from 0 to 100km/h since it is in a G wagon, manual gear box. but i bet is not far from 7 seconds.
it F%&%$ rocks. M pump 7.5 dieselmeken set at 90cc , all the way to 6k. special magic in the governor as well.
in the sedans, usually we use 60X series.
with the right turbo exaust I/C 617 wont be far from a 602, actually i belive it has same potential.
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - atypicalguy - 04-22-2015
I have most of the setup for an he200wg including oil supply, adapters, etc. I am thinking of doing the he200vg instead so I would sell the 200wg. Small turbo for really early spool; should be great for around town and enough air for 150hp assuming sufficient fuel. I am only thinking vnt because it would compound better.
221w sounds like a great option as above. Slower spool though. 200wg should be lighting up as soon as you step on it.
I bought the 200wg right so only 400 for turbo. It is new, never run. We couldnt get the 200vg before so thats why I went 200wg plus it was cheap. 5cm exhaust housing. Wastegate internal. I am still planning to stick it on and see how it goes as I cannot bring myself to spend 500 on the old kkk rebuild.
K
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - Edian727 - 04-23-2015
I really like the TD04's. a few company's make upgrades for these, billet wheels, turbine wheels with less fins(12 is stock, they make 11 and 7). they also use 6 and 7cm turbine housing.The volvo's td04's aren't quite a t3 flange, but you can get a adapter for it. I imagine a 19t would be great on a 617. I've seen a 19t with a 8.5cm exhaust housing that was used on a 4-cylinder Caterpiller engine. that was a standard t3 flange, but no waste gate. There is also td05's. I'm not sure if these came on any volvo's but eclipse's and lancer EVO's used them. you'd need a adapter to use those though.
If your handy, you can buy a 19t on ebay for a hundred dollars and rebuild it. i think the rebuild kits are less then a hundred dollars.
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - tjts1 - 04-24-2015
(04-19-2015, 01:50 PM)raysorenson The WG cracks earlier with the boost tapped from the compressor housing.BINGO, its called wastegate creep.
One thing I did on my T3 was was buld a simply electronic boost controller of sorts. I used a pressure switch hoooked up to the manifold set at 13PSI and a solenoid valve at the hose to the wastegate actuator. Below 13PSI the solenoid valve feeds VACUUM to the wastegate actuator. At or above 13PSI it switches to feeding boost pressure. This ensures the wastegate stays completely shut all the way too that set point. If I go from no throttle to WOT it can reach 9psi at 2000rpm in a split second. It doesn't make any more peak power than with normal wastegate control but the engine is far responsive (torque torque torque) in normal driving.
Here's the pressure switch mounted on the drivers side strut mount with a hose going to the manifold and wires running back to the solenoid valve.
https://i.imgur.com/1v4fyB6.jpg
The solenoid valve activated by the pressure switch.
https://i.imgur.com/DCqEANx.jpg
99% of the time when I'm not flooring it the wastegate actuator is getting vacumm instead of boost.
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - mike-81-240d - 04-29-2015
I just installed a HX30 last week on my 617 300TD.
My stock oil drain tube bolted up, but did not line up.
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - Brewster - 04-29-2015
How did you correct the oil return tube alignment? Were you able to heat it up and bend it into place?
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - atypicalguy - 04-29-2015
Either do the garden hose with clamps or cut it off and weld the proper end onto it. Or bend a custom section to line it up and weld it to the factory tube end.
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - Evenglass - 04-29-2015
(04-18-2015, 08:23 AM)kmaser I have an HX30 on my Om617a with Tomnik 6.5 elements, it bolts right up and the drain line works without mods as well. Only modified the oil supply line. I have prob 7-8psi by 2000rpm and climbs quickly after that.
Do you have any pictures of this turbo installed on your engine?
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - MTUPower - 04-30-2015
(04-29-2015, 01:41 AM)mike-81-240d I just installed a HX30 last week on my 617 300TD.Pics!!!
My stock oil drain tube bolted up, but did not line up.
RE: Non VNT turbo upgrade for quicker boost - winmutt - 04-30-2015
5/8"? hose will slip over that drain pipe after you cut it....