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+--- Thread: on606 limits. (/showthread.php?tid=6444)
on606 limits. - whipplem104 - 04-16-2015
Ok., I searched for a while but did not find what I am looking for but I know it has been discussed before. I am working with a client that wants to build about as much power as possible with an om606. 700-800hp at the crank minimum. So the question lies. What can a stock engine handle? We know we need a pump and turbo ect. But what can a stock om606 make reliably. Then what are the weak links. I would assume pistons>? But maybe rods. Then pistons. Just want to do it once. A break down of what can be done at each level would be great. Also are people using ARP head studs? And a stock head gasket?
Also benifits of starting with a turbo engine rather a n/a for the build. This is going in a w124 E300d n/a 606 car. Money is not really the issue just goals and being reliable.
We have already done the transmission and will do the driveline to handle whatever it needs to.
RE: on606 limits. - TurboTim - 04-16-2015
People have made 600 wheel on stock rods and pistons.
RE: on606 limits. - Turbo - 04-17-2015
look around, there are many claims, shadowmaker on tdi club as well a here STD, BBT motorsport,
Define reliably, look at black smoke racing what problem they have experiance even if they do soe strange things sometime,
I am looking for steel pistons, the turbo set up I have been fooling around for sometime now
there are many claims but dynopaper and instruction is very limteted what I am been able to find, so it is just to build
RE: on606 limits. - mytmousemalibu - 04-17-2015
700-800hp is probably getting to stretching it thin. The main bearing caps are only a 2-bolt design, there is really not a lot of bottom end support. A massive main bearing girdle will be needed. With that much power your going to start beating the main journal webs out of the block. I know Black Smoke Racing has breached that problem on the 606 but at what power and rev's I don't know. I doubt stock rods will hold up to that much. 500-600hp is probably pushing the limits. Pistons... dunno what they will take, they are robust and oil cooled but the dome might collapse into the cooling pocket, thermal coating them may help. May need to go with a custom forged piston and reduced compression and higher boost? Being a pre-chamber engine starts posing issues with injecting the kind of fuel to get that level of power. That much power is kinda uncharted or if its been ventured its sealed lips territory kind of power. I am overbuilding mine as much as I can without going crazy to keep it as reliable as possible and trying to go for 450-500hp, that is the current plan for mine. I think reliability is going to be an issue with 700-800 and driveability may suffer, like poor idle quality and white smoking to make it spin crazy HP with the pedal mashed. I would stud everything with ARP's in your case, its going to need it!
RE: on606 limits. - Duncansport - 04-17-2015
The main bearing caps being a two bolt main isn't the limiting factor (i think) the 2JZ and RB engines are all two bolt mains. Along with the BMW 6's (all of these have been well north of of 1000hp, hell even the M104 has been up to 1000HP) The vibrations are what kill these engines, steel pestons are a waste of $$ and time for our purpose. Custom pistons would be a better choice but custom means changing them more often then factory as they will not have the steel compression ring land. BBT worked with a customer and made a 25MM girdle that had the main bearing caps built into it. The PC design of the engine is another limiting issue as well.
I do think a full race 606 could be made to be close to 800-900 hp with lower compression and a DI set up. But it would no way be a driver.
RE: on606 limits. - whipplem104 - 04-17-2015
So then what are the biggest numbers people are getting out of these? I know that there are always claims but there are a lot of these out there and there has to be some sort of realistic data. So what are the limits with 8mm elements in the pump. From what I gather 600+ hp should be very easy. This is not a daily driver, just a toy. The customer just wants it make as much power as possible and still work. It will not rev to the moon or anything. I would probably have it shift at stock revs. Maybe 6000 rpm max. I am not worried about the bearings. I have built some good power from the gas inline engines and run them for a very long time at high power and have seen little to no wear on the rod and main bearings. If those are the limit then they are the limit. I think that BSR was having a lot of issues do to the revs and just general abuse that drifting requires. That has to be one of the most abusive ways to run and engine.
RE: on606 limits. - raysorenson - 04-17-2015
Is there a single turbo that can make 600hp at stock revs? If so, would it be a dyno queen? How fun would it be with an auto trans?
Sounds like the only way to make this car fun with that kind of power mated to an auto trans is compounding, and while it gets talked up a lot around here, how many examples of compound builds are there here that can be driven right now?
IMHO, 450hp 450lb-ft would be a sober starting point for a slushbox build without putting anyone into uncharted territory.
RE: on606 limits. - Turbo - 04-17-2015
Duncan
Why do you say steel pistons is waste of money? if you lower the compression and put in a lot more fuel, and aluminium piston shall survive injection exhaust temperature is going to sky rocket, if you want to have better effency injection most come erlier and temperature and preesure is going to be very high, I can not see a aluminium piston survive at 250-300bars top combustion pressure, specially if you really want to usethat Cv (specific heat at constant volume) is smaller then Cp
I have in the past see that BBT has some nice stuff and I was very intresting to buy some thing with them, but cominication from there part did not work at all, do you know they well?
RE: on606 limits. - F.R.A.S - 04-17-2015
EVERYTHING is possible. I'm an old man hahahhaha so I've been around for a while and just some 15yrs ago a car with 600hp was extreme. Here in Sweden every little 18yr old is driving a 400hp BMW. And there has been +1000hp builds on more car the last 10yrs then there ever existed tuned cars 15yrs ago. A guy called Hans Dahlbäck built a VW Golf with the ABY 5cyl Audi engine in 1998 and there it all started. It was the most written about car in the WORLD and he had only like 800hp in that car. Today there are at least five +1000hp Audis with that engine running on the streets here. When someone proves that stuff is possible the limit moves and people move forward.
Sure 800hp is possible and I for one are aiming there. With a stock bottom NO but a 177hp engine going 800hp you have to be pretty stupid not modifying everything accordingly
Dahlbäcks Golf.
Modern Audis:
RE: on606 limits. - whipplem104 - 04-17-2015
(04-17-2015, 09:58 AM)raysorenson Is there a single turbo that can make 600hp at stock revs? If so, would it be a dyno queen? How fun would it be with an auto trans?
Sounds like the only way to make this car fun with that kind of power mated to an auto trans is compounding, and while it gets talked up a lot around here, how many examples of compound builds are there here that can be driven right now?
IMHO, 450hp 450lb-ft would be a sober starting point for a slushbox build without putting anyone into uncharted territory.
Ok, I am a newb to making power with the diesels but why would the turbo be a problem. There are plenty of turbos out there these days that make boost early and can make 600+ hp. Borg Warner efr turbo is an example. I would think the 8374 would do fine. This will be a highway puller so effective rpm range would be from around 3-3500 rpm to 6000 rpm.
As far as the transmission goes I do not see why you think that an auto gear box is a detriment. For building boost down low, engine braking with an auto is the best way to get boost to build early on. We are going to have a 2800 rpm stall in the converter as well.
I guess really I am not so concerned about making hp as lots of torque.
But really what are the limits? Take turbo selection out of the picture and what has been done with the engine stock? What more has been done with rods and pistons? What can a built injection pump deliver? We can figure out how to get the boost in the engine. If twins are required then fine.
RE: on606 limits. - raysorenson - 04-17-2015
First, I am in no way flaming or hating here. This is a high bar you've set and I get the impression you've got the resources to at least make a serious attempt.
The Holsets are great at high pressure ratios, and you'll need a high pressure ratio so I'm using them as an example. I guess an HX35 can be expected to make 350whp, full boost in by 3000-3300 rpm. An HX40 will have later spool and get you into the 4XX hp range. I think the "redline" as indicated by the tach on my 606 car is 5000, so if you want stock revs, an HX40 will put you at 400something WHP and 1000-1300 rpm powerband that you could easily fall out of on shifts. To me, the only solution to getting just near your hp goal with just a single turbo would require cam/valvetrain mods and significantly higher engine speeds.
If the EFR turbo you're looking at makes HP in the range that you want on a gas burning engine, lop ~25% off those figures and you'll be closer to what you'll see on a 606, assuming it can make the necessary pressure ratio.
Twins are a not an improvement over a single turbo with a divided turbine housing. Compounding is technically difficult. To get that right without trial and error will take some mad math skillz.
My issue with the trans is more of an engine speed thing. If you really could make 700 hp by 5000 rpms, (NOS?) an auto is exactly what you want. If you've got 5000 rpm of turbo lag and 5 gears, it would be a strange beast to drive. I like your idea of a lot of torque best. I guess what I'm saying, is the car will be a lot of fun when there's a ton of torque at an accessible engine speed when using a 722.6.
RE: on606 limits. - F.R.A.S - 04-17-2015
I can tell you what I'm looking at in the future build of mine.
Epoxy filled block
(maybe even a girdle)
ARP top to bottom
Stg2 cams
8k valve spring kit
Ported head
Coated pistons (have to because of the machining we do for valve clearance)
Forged rods
Real plenum intake
Compound and try to hit 5bar (70psi)
Dieselmeken special superstroker IP @ 7500rpm
Thats more or less it. Nothing super special, just an engine build.
RE: on606 limits. - whipplem104 - 04-17-2015
Ok, I was planning on reving it to 6k. The n/a revs to 5500 on the governor. If we can go higher safely then that is fine as well. I just did not think it would be necessary. So if we can get 400whp at 5k then we should be able to get close to 500whp at 6k I would think. That would be around 600chp and what 7-800bl/ft of torque? So how high can you safely rev the engine?
We can rev as high as we need to with the 722.6. I rev mine above 7k without any problems.
But the basics of what I am getting from you guys is that we are just limited to what the engine will breath and turbo selection. Not how strong the bottom end is??
If we compound and can get boost then what are the limits. Or is everyone just making 4-450hp and 5-600lb/ft of torque?
And what about just putting a 2.3l or 3l supercharger on it instead of a turbo? Then we can make boost down low and gobs of torque.
RE: on606 limits. - ak47is1337 - 04-17-2015
you HAVE to make a detailed build log for this!!
RE: on606 limits. - F.R.A.S - 04-17-2015
(04-17-2015, 12:19 PM)whipplem104 Ok, I was planning on reving it to 6k. The n/a revs to 5500 on the governor. If we can go higher safely then that is fine as well. I just did not think it would be necessary. So if we can get 400whp at 5k then we should be able to get close to 500whp at 6k I would think. That would be around 600chp and what 7-800bl/ft of torque? So how high can you safely rev the engine?
We can rev as high as we need to with the 722.6. I rev mine above 7k without any problems.
But the basics of what I am getting from you guys is that we are just limited to what the engine will breath and turbo selection. Not how strong the bottom end is??
If we compound and can get boost then what are the limits. Or is everyone just making 4-450hp and 5-600lb/ft of torque?
And what about just putting a 2.3l or 3l supercharger on it instead of a turbo? Then we can make boost down low and gobs of torque.
We have done 7250rpm without any problem at all.
Limit is boost pressure. You have a 136hp n/a engine, that's 270hp on 1bar, 400hp on 2bar, 540hp on 3bar, 680hp on 4bar and 800hp on 5bar.
Then it all changes when you are going other cams and a ported head and so on... But this is a quick calculation on what's needed. I think 800hp can be reached at like 4bar of boost.
Most people use a single turbo and that limits you at around 3bar
That's the limit...
RE: on606 limits. - Duncansport - 04-17-2015
(04-17-2015, 10:12 AM)Turbo Duncan
Why do you say steel pistons is waste of money? if you lower the compression and put in a lot more fuel, and aluminium piston shall survive injection exhaust temperature is going to sky rocket, if you want to have better effency injection most come erlier and temperature and preesure is going to be very high, I can not see a aluminium piston survive at 250-300bars top combustion pressure, specially if you really want to usethat Cv (specific heat at constant volume) is smaller then Cp
I have in the past see that BBT has some nice stuff and I was very intresting to buy some thing with them, but cominication from there part did not work at all, do you know they well?
There was chat about this somewhere else. Mahle makes them for HP needs for Cummins, powerstroke and soon Duramax. They are really really expensive! They also weigh more then the cast OE pistons. I agree they are super tough but people here are not reaching the limits of these engine due to piston failures ( i know BSR has melted some but its BSR....) Remember top fuel cars use aluminum pistons as well as most pulling tractor engines.
I even talked with Mahle motorsports about this option for our engines and they basically said they would need to see a sizable market to even bother getting the build info from Mahle OE to start the design phase on a monotherm.
BBT is small, i was able to share some cad designs while i was building my main bearing girdle. I dont think they sell much. Besides we all really cheap on this forum and really don't buy much in the way of real performance parts.. just saying.
RE: on606 limits. - whipplem104 - 04-17-2015
At F.R.A.S. and the stock engine can handle 3 bar?, 4 Bar? When are rods and pistons needed. Ie power or rpms or both.
RE: on606 limits. - F.R.A.S - 04-17-2015
(04-17-2015, 12:55 PM)whipplem104 At F.R.A.S. and the stock engine can handle 3 bar?, 4 Bar? When are rods and pistons needed. Ie power or rpms or both.
Boost is just to get the air in to the engine, boost it self is nothing. The VE on these engines are bad and therefore there is some serious forcing to be done to make power.
n/a om606 should be able to do 500hp if you have full boost @ 3000rpm, lower than that and I think you'll bend the rods (taken from my om604 witch is the same engine just 2cyl shorter and have the same rods). So that number is more or less tested. I did 2.5bar of boost with stock rods and the car was running just fine.
A .96x engine (turbo engine) is a lot tougher and you can do at least 650-700hp if you keep the full boost at no lower then 3000rpm. At what torque at what RPM the rods fail I don't know but it's down low. Maybe 3.5bar @ 2500rpm and I think you are in the zone for failure.
I don't think there are more then a hand full of people who have ever tested 4bar
And the people who are tuning Mercedes diesel does that because they DON'T want to change parts. Therefore most tuned up om-engines have very low power. Like 400hp in a om606.
RE: on606 limits. - Mr_Robs - 04-17-2015
(04-17-2015, 12:55 PM)whipplem104 At F.R.A.S. and the stock engine can handle 3 bar?, 4 Bar? When are rods and pistons needed. Ie power or rpms or both.
Not to sounds like a dick but all this information is easily found on this forum, sans maybe the 800hp goals, it is there but you have to dig. There are about 3-4 build threads that can answer 80% of the questions asked here, all on the first or second page of the builds section.
You are building this engine for a client, but you want us to provide all the information you need, while you make money off of it? Just doesnt really sit well with me, but maybe im jaded. I'm all for helping DIY mechanics find info and further the community, but it doesnt make sense to help a business owner that supposedly has experience doing higher HP builds. I've spent countless hours researching stuff here for the last 6 months, talking with various forum members, etc. Heck, Fred (FRAS) and i have forged a really great friendship over me being a customer!
FRAS is probably the best person to talk to about high HP goals, but he runs a business and i wouldn't expect him to share the specific build details to make one of the fastest IDI diesel engines.
Regardless, it will be nice to see another crazy west coast build. You'll need to read lots and lots of text here, and get used to trial and error. I think you'll find that unless you guys have a crazy built NAG1 722.6 (think hemi drag car) you will run in to issues with that gearbox at high HP levels.
RE: on606 limits. - Turbo - 04-17-2015
(04-17-2015, 12:48 PM)Duncansport Hello Duncan
I have also talk to marhle motorsports as well, but that was about there topweld pistons, no problem to order if 250000$ for tool that needed in the process because the bore size is to small for what they make now, but that time it was for DI engine not IDI engines like we speak of here, if I could get them for 2k I would buy them with out hesitation... there are other manufacturer that make steel piston too, I do not think the orginal piston will last for long what I am about to treat them with, speacialy if they would be cut in for bigger valves
Regarding BBT I would say I was serious buyer for the stuff that BBT had produced since it at least looked good, but it fall on them when I asked for price... They claim they have 7G tronic that can do 800hp I wanted one they say it is not finished but they advertise is different, they say they have 800HP and then they ask where did I buy my pump...
I do not think it is that easy to build a 800HP engine that some here are imposing if the engineis going to be nice to drive, I spent several month just calculation what turbo will work in a good way, it come down to two in the end and it was not easy to find and it was not holset... I do not doubt a holset will work, but not as I want them to work, and the turbo I a getting are not cheap...
If somebody here could build one true 800HP engine, I would bet first on Shadowmaker, but do not expect him to share some of that information just like that, and his occupation now days is not much of the stuff we have here
For me it is strange to even compare a petrol engine and diesel engine, a 1000HP petrol engine is not even close to the pressure we speak about in diesel process as fare s I know... if I would take a builder really serious, he would show me measured volumetric efficiency and measured pressure cycle when the engine is running to start with, but what do I know... That is the equipment I am looking for in the next step for my building
RE: on606 limits. - erx - 04-17-2015
n/a om606 is rubbish, take turbo version and you are safe. I know a guy from another forum who bought n/a om606 and first test run with hx40 ended with five bent rods.
RE: on606 limits. - mytmousemalibu - 04-17-2015
(04-17-2015, 07:36 AM)Duncansport The main bearing caps being a two bolt main isn't the limiting factor (i think) the 2JZ and RB engines are all two bolt mains. Along with the BMW 6's (all of these have been well north of of 1000hp, hell even the M104 has been up to 1000HP) The vibrations are what kill these engines, steel pestons are a waste of $$ and time for our purpose. Custom pistons would be a better choice but custom means changing them more often then factory as they will not have the steel compression ring land. BBT worked with a customer and made a 25MM girdle that had the main bearing caps built into it. The PC design of the engine is another limiting issue as well.
I do think a full race 606 could be made to be close to 800-900 hp with lower compression and a DI set up. But it would no way be a driver.
The power numbers are all well and true for the engines you speak of but those are not diesels. The vibration & resonance is an issue. The bigger problem in my eyes concerning the bottom end is combustion pressures are much higher in a diesel and brute force is hammering on the crank webs. These engines can make an amazing amount of power for what they are but push comes to shove, I honestly think the bottom end support needs a lot of attention at this kind of power being requested. I think a guy would need to resort to a full billet steel bedplate (integrated caps). As you, I think a move to direct injection would be needed which is a big undertaking, a DI piston, DI injectors (finding one small enough to fit plus machining the bore for it), etc. You would lose glow plugs as the injector body needs to fill the void where it would protrude. I think a guy can get away fine with aluminum pistons, perhaps add a thermal barrier coating. But as stated there likely won't be a steel ring land and the rings will eventually beat up the lands. Steel pistons are certainly very robust but the extra weight is detrimental and frankly i doubt worth the cost. Pulling tractors can run all season or more with forged aluminum pistons making around 5000hp and 250-300psi boost on aluminum pistons. Our former pro mod Nova had an 8.3L Arias hemi that used an all aluminum piston and developed 3000+hp on 60ish psi of boost on methanol. If a guy wanted to pursue a DI Mercedes, it might be better to look at the OM648 but pretty uncharted territory too.
RE: on606 limits. - whipplem104 - 04-17-2015
I am not trying to get anything for free. I do not want to copy what someone else has made and make money at it. I have not really done any performance diesel stuff but I have on gas engines. And am more than free with what I have found through trial and error. If someone says rods and pistons need to be done at x power levels and the customer wants more then we are more than willing to buy proven products that someone else developed. From them if they profiled the parts and sell them. I have made parts that I have developed and sell as well.
I spent several hours searching through threads on here and could not find specific numbers on anything. I found a few threads on rods but no reference as to when they were needed and then when pistons were needed etc. As I stated we do not plan to rev to the moon but obviously if the engine can rev to 7000 rpm safely and flow air at that rpm and get fuel in it and burn it then great. But if it only revs to 6000 rpm and can survive at that level and make the power goals then that is ok as well.
What I am gathering is that the stock engine can make pretty close to 700c/hp and survive for a reasonable amount of time with the proper setup. Then we are good. If it is 600hp and if we do rods and pistons and can get 8-900 hp then great. What else is needed. But it is not like there are a bunch of businesses that have developed product and are listing them for sale anywhere.
As far as the 722.6 is concerned it is already a built trans in the car. For the customer set goals. I build these for Mopars as well and have proven product at different power levels. With the standalone the capabilities are higher than with the stock tcu because I can run pressures to what is required. These are also a 5-700 lbs lighter than the modern mopars. And the customer will not be putting slicks on and trying to launch with 1000lb/ft of torque on a 4500 rpm converter.
RE: on606 limits. - atypicalguy - 01-30-2016
I think this making power at higher rpm is going to stress the motor less, because it takes less torque to generate the same power at higher rpm. So this is basically a question about the maximum torque the motor can handle.
RE: on606 limits. - MFSuper90 - 01-31-2016
High boost you will need to o-ring or fire ring the head for reliability. Stock headgakset can't take enormous amounts of boost reliably. I fire ring all high performance engines that will be turbo'd.
A main girdle never hurts, especially if money isn't an issue.
Big HP engines use billet cams, cranks, rods, forged Pistons, tool steel pins, etc.
if your really looking to make huge HP look into micro-blue coating, it frees up a lot of horsepower robbed by friction.
RE: on606 limits. - atypicalguy - 01-31-2016
I understand what you are saying, but every motor is different and virtually no one has done what you are talking about to an om606. Despite this, you have om605 daily drivers making 466hp, over 90 hp per cylinder. So om606 could make 550 or so by that formula.
Mr robs says the reinz gasket is mls, which should take a lot of boost I would think.
Seems like Whipple wants to know at what power level the fancy mods come into play. I don't think anyone really knows the limit except maybe the black smoke guys who were over 700hp as I recall, and they switched to a direct injection motor after that I think. I think direct motors use lower compression than idi, so more boost is possible structurally.
You did not mention machining the head to lower compression, which I think would be critical at some point, maybe 700hp. The intended use is also important, as the AFR will be limiting at some point and require multi stage turbocharging to keep egt down. I think they decided on a 600 hp target, which is ambitious if they want to dyno that. It also depends where in the rpm range they want the power, but with a 65mm inducer turbo compressor it will do max power at higher rpm. Sounds like they are following the jeemu motor ideas, but with 6cyl not 5.
I think that turbobandit guy pushes 900+ hp through an m104 block, probably using an om606 crank.
RE: on606 limits. - m1tch - 01-31-2016
I wouldn't be worried about the BHP, its the torque the thing creates!