+- STD (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std)
+-- Forum: Tuning (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Engine (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Thread: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs (/showthread.php?tid=6521)
Pages:
1
2
Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - Matej - 05-19-2015
Hello,
Does anyone sell stiffer valve springs for the OM606, or is the only way to have them custom made? I have contacted Supertech but they never got back to me, and before I contact other brands, I wanted to ask if there are any aftermarket springs already available for purchase. That would certainly be much more convenient.
Thank you.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - Mr_Robs - 05-20-2015
Check out KM cams, i am going to pick mine up from Fedex today because they couldnt deliver mine while i was away haha.
http://kmcams.com/products/mercedes-diesel-om606-ventilfjaerer
Ken the owner is really nice and easy to communicate with!
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - CRD4x4 - 05-20-2015
Before I go bothering a busy business man (Ken), and as an alternative to learning Swedish;
Could you share the specs of these valve springs?
It looks as though 2,500.00 Krona is about $300 USD - if anyone was wondering.
Thanks!
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - Turbo - 05-20-2015
Swedish? try Norwegian! But ask me because I do not know even if I a Swedish guy
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - Matej - 05-22-2015
Thanks for posting those. It says that something needs to be replaced (not sure what Underlagsbrikke means, spring seats?), so I am guessing they are quite stiff and good for big power.
I would like springs that are a bit stiffer than stock, but can still be used with the rest of the factory valvetrain without issues, mainly just for peace of mind on a mild build that may see redline every now and then.
If anyone would be interested in doing a group buy or knows a place that could make some, I would be happy to join.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - F.R.A.S - 05-23-2015
I have been in contact with a big spring company and they can make drop in springs for me. However what stopping me is that I need to know I have some 240pc sold at least before making the order. So if ten om606 guys could raise there hands it's a done deal.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 05-23-2015
for how much , a Spring is a Spring ?
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - F.R.A.S - 05-23-2015
Say I can do it for €9/spring = €216 for a om606. Then it's a 100% drop in solution. That's as cheap as it gets really.
That's $10 and $240 for the stateside guys.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - ak47is1337 - 05-24-2015
Count me in.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - LillNaisarn - 05-24-2015
+1. i would also buy
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - Matej - 05-24-2015
If they would be truly drop-in springs usable with an otherwise stock valvetrain then I would buy a set as well.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - F.R.A.S - 05-25-2015
That's the point here, they will be a 100% drop in solution. And this price is for the customers signing up before the order. When that's done I have to do the math and see what numbers I come up with. So sign up ASAP guys
There will be a little manufacturing time here just so you know. Have to check that when we are at least ten guys signed up.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - Eric78 - 05-26-2015
I'm interested in a set for an OM605.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - whipplem104 - 05-26-2015
I was wondering are you guys having problems with the valves floating? And if so at what point?
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 05-26-2015
i have seen that phenomena around 6k at dry conditions, i dont know how it shows pulling , but anyhow my pump stop pulling at 5.6k (by choice
)but of course the engine will benefice from having harder Spring ,
but at 9€ each
i´m out this time.regards
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - F.R.A.S - 05-26-2015
Only four sets so far
Yea the valves start to float at high RPM and trash the hydraulic lifters.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - whipplem104 - 05-26-2015
What rpm does this become a problem? What boost level? Has anyone measure the stock springs? What are the specs on these? A little data and I would be interested.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - Duncansport - 05-27-2015
(05-26-2015, 04:30 PM)whipplem104 What rpm does this become a problem? What boost level? Has anyone measure the stock springs? What are the specs on these? A little data and I would be interested.
the stock spring pressure is very light, i posted up some specs a while back. My springs were less then 20 lbs at seat pressure when i tested them. The comp cam Ford springs i used were 85 lbs at seat pressure..
WIS has the info on the stock springs
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - whipplem104 - 05-27-2015
Thanks, I read somewhere that they were 45lbs. but I will check WIS. I have never tried to look up spring pressure before.
Mostly I want some specs rather than here buy this mystery product for this problem I may not have. Just like all other products i buy. I want to know what I am buying. Same thing with Camshafts and rods that are out there. All they say is performance camshaft and rods.
At what point are these needed, ie rpm or boost or combination of both. Exhaust back pressure etc. Before and after.
Not just high rpm and lots of boost or back pressure. Numbers.
And I know it is not exact but generally you can say within certain parameters. Like you can run 35 psi of manifold pressure all day long at 6k rpm with no problems but somewhere around 40 psi at 6k starts to have problems and 35psi at 6500 rpm will have problems or maybe even between 6-7k rpm. That way I know if I am not going above 6k rpm and 35psi of back pressure that I do not need these and if I am I might and would buy them. What are the seat pressures on these springs and compressed pressure? What is the height at bind? What rpm have these been tested to. What manifold pressures.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - Duncansport - 05-27-2015
You need to do some home work on the springs. The bind height is a bit over 27mm if i remember correctly. I think it would be a poor choice to run OE springs on a engine that is going to be even slightly modified. 35lbs is 20 over factory so....... :-)
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - whipplem104 - 05-27-2015
I meant on aftermarket springs. What are the seat pressures, open pressures and bind height on the aftermarket valve springs being sold. And the pressure numbers I just was throwing out there as an example. I have seen more than one thread on this forum stating they are running well above 20lbs of boost.
I have read info on spring pressures and boost and what has been found is that it is not as simple as you have 20lb spring seat pressure and 25lbs of inlet manifold pressure or exhaust back pressure and that opens the valve based on the sq" of valve the valve. There are forces acting on the cylinder side of the valve face as well.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - whipplem104 - 05-27-2015
I want to add. I having been playing with the m104 gas engine for years. And I can tell you in detail what I have found and what added power and what breaks up to the power levels and rpms that I have run, which is North of 500chp probably around 550. Have not been on a dyno in a little while after some changes. Similar torque numbers. I rev to 7-7200 rpm and have been higher. I am going to put nitrous on it in the next couple of years and swing for the cheap seats and see what happens. I can tell you that at around 500hp I have had problems with the ring lands. It does not blow up but at around that number if things are not perfect it will damage a piston or maybe just after a long bit of abuse. But a couple of engines now at around the same point. I now have CP forged pistons.
I can tell you the rods are fine. I see no bearing wear. I have done camshafts and shared the specs and dyno'd the results and shared those. I have done headers and the same. I have found the limits of the stock fuel system and can pretty much tell you how much it can handle within a few hp.
Same with the 722.6. I build them. I can tell you what power levels you can run within a certain set of parameters with different combinations. What needs to be changed incrementally. And what my products do and what level they have been tested to and how long they have been going without problems.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 05-27-2015
yep i´m with u , maybe a Spring from a m104 engine fits the 604/5/6 , why, i have springs from 270cdi and they do fit the 605 engines.
MB make them with a colour code , wich i dont know what it does mean, maybe someone know the association with Spring force.
same for turbo and non turbo engines , springs look the same , diff colour code i just dont have a Spring dinamometer otherwise i would post the forces involved.
anyhow there are many Spring factorys all over, .....
Fras is a honest man at least i can´t complain but 10dollar a Spring , i too much for me as mention previously.
10 usd for mech tappets , 10 for Spring, 10 to install , and 30 times 24 is a lot of Money , enough to buy a new engine after breaking.....
hope all can understand my point.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - TurboTim - 05-30-2015
I have KM springs and I just installed them....was I supposed to change something. I have not ran them long or with my new cams. Would be nice if they would say something when you purchase them. Should I swap something when I put my cams in?
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - Matej - 05-30-2015
(05-27-2015, 03:32 PM)barrote yep i´m with u , maybe a Spring from a m104 engine fits the 604/5/6 , why, i have springs from 270cdi and they do fit the 605 engines.It would be great if there was an OEM spring that fits and is an upgrade over stock, and I would not be surprised if there is one. Too bad it is difficult to find information on the OEM springs.
MB make them with a colour code , wich i dont know what it does mean, maybe someone know the association with Spring force.
same for turbo and non turbo engines , springs look the same , diff colour code i just dont have a Spring dinamometer otherwise i would post the forces involved.
(05-30-2015, 12:49 AM)TurboTim I have KM springs and I just installed them....was I supposed to change something. I have not ran them long or with my new cams. Would be nice if they would say something when you purchase them. Should I swap something when I put my cams in?It says you are supposed to use them with the KM spring seats. I am not sure if they are an absolute necessity or if they are just trying to get you to buy their seats.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - Stamsaas - 05-31-2015
I have KM Cams springs and springseats, works perfect
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - TurboTim - 05-31-2015
Stock seats or KM ones?
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - F.R.A.S - 05-31-2015
KM springs need KM seats. Way different in size.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - TurboTim - 06-01-2015
Gosh I wish he would have mentioned that when I bought them.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - EDH_Performance - 06-02-2015
To clear something about kmcmas spring...The only thing you need to change is the "underlagsbrikke", and that is the thin steel shim that lays directly under the stock valvespring! As this steelshim act as a center guide for the stock conical valvespring.
The kmcams spring is not conical, you need to remove the bottom shim and replace it with a flat washer, about 1-2mm thick.
I used some stock washer for nuts and bolts aka hardware stuff. Needed to drill out the center hole as it was only 10mm.
The center hole has to go over the valvestem seal.
To the left: Kmcams spring Right: Stock conical valvespring
![[Image: 20120616_001053.jpg]](http://s3.photobucket.com/user/volvoturbopower/media/W201/20120616_001053.jpg.html)
Retainer fits directly on both springs:
Kmcams:
![[Image: 20120616_001106.jpg]](http://s3.photobucket.com/user/volvoturbopower/media/W201/20120616_001106.jpg.html)
Stock:
![[Image: 20120616_001117.jpg]](http://s3.photobucket.com/user/volvoturbopower/media/W201/20120616_001117.jpg.html)
Here is "Underlagsbrikke"/ Steel shim that you need to make/find/buy/.
![[Image: 20120616_004829.jpg]](http://s3.photobucket.com/user/volvoturbopower/media/W201/20120616_004829.jpg.html)
Left: home made steel shim Right: stock steelshim removed
![[Image: 20120616_005658.jpg]](http://s3.photobucket.com/user/volvoturbopower/media/W201/20120616_005658.jpg.html)
Complete setup:
![[Image: 20120616_010440.jpg]](http://s3.photobucket.com/user/volvoturbopower/media/W201/20120616_010440.jpg.html)
So i will say, if you are able to go this deep in the engine, you are well qualified to make the bottom shim yourself, costing a coupple of dollars^^
I was the guy that called Kmcams for a coupple of years ago and told i needed some stronger springs for my projects..Sent them a valve, shim, retainer and spring.. They called me some days later and found some springs that would work, all i needed was to try them
If i remember correct, they are from a vw/audi race engine, but dont take that for 100%!
They worked like a charm, so there they ended up in the webshop
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - Matej - 06-02-2015
Interesting. Did not realize the stock springs are conical.
How about M272.969 springs for a 2009 and newer SLK350 (part number 272 053 07 20)? They are conical, and made for a 7200rpm 300hp motor. Could someone test one alongside the OM606 spring?
![[Image: 233807d1335075110-broken-valve-spring-vsprings.jpg]](http://mbworld.org/forums/attachments/slk-class-r171/233807d1335075110-broken-valve-spring-vsprings.jpg)
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - Matej - 06-02-2015
Also, it seems that it should be possible to replace the spring seat rings with thicker washers/spacers, possibly even add a washer/spacer under the retainer, as long as there is enough material protruding to keep the spring centered. This would create extra preload on the spring and make it stiffer.
Though I am not sure if such preload would make much of a difference or if it would be insignificant.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - EDH_Performance - 06-03-2015
(06-02-2015, 08:44 PM)Matej Also, it seems that it should be possible to replace the spring seat rings with thicker washers/spacers, possibly even add a washer/spacer under the retainer, as long as there is enough material protruding to keep the spring centered. This would create extra preload on the spring and make it stiffer.
Though I am not sure if such preload would make much of a difference or if it would be insignificant.
The stock springs is really weak! if i remember right the springforce on stock springs was about 16-17kg and kmcmas was 38kg
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - whipplem104 - 06-03-2015
(06-02-2015, 08:14 PM)Matej Interesting. Did not realize the stock springs are conical.
How about M272.969 springs for a 2009 and newer SLK350 (part number 272 053 07 20)? They are conical, and made for a 7200rpm 300hp motor. Could someone test one alongside the OM606 spring?
I thought of the same thing but I am pretty sure that the 272-273 or really any of the newer engines have very soft springs in them. Very small valves and roller rocker assemblies that are pretty light. Besides I have seen the stock springs on the 272 just break under normal use.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - Matej - 06-03-2015
The straight spring on the left is an older 272 spring, which is the spring that people broke. The conical spring is from the updated 2009+ 272 and it is supposed to be 20% stiffer. Though I have no idea how it compares to the OM606 spring.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - whipplem104 - 06-03-2015
I just pulled a m104 valve spring. It has the same unsprung height and is quite a bit stiffer. The head would have to be cut for the larger base diameter and a new retainer. But basically the same total lift. Installed height is a little different. I just wedged one in an om606. A lot more seat pressure. I will measure the bind height is not good though. Just checked. I keep going back to the Ford beehive springs that have been mentioned several times. I will get a m272 and a few others to compare as well. I was also looking at some motorcycle applications and there are some close ones there.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 06-04-2015
a few days ago i spoke with a company that makes springs , and that kind of Spring if they have them in stock can be as expensive as 2€ each. if we order them as custom they will make it and sell it for 50% more. around that. what is amazing is that company internal policy is that when a costumer orders something custom, they usually built a batch and keep it in stock. thats a funny policy.
when i have the time i got to go there and search the stock. and if its the case draw a custom one and have the pricetag.
i´m sure that in the past the springs in the 4 valve engine were concentrical ,, and at certain point they become helicoidal. so the M104 sring fits fine , i belive the valve steem is the same in most MB. just a question of machinning the Spring seat, wich pitta.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - whipplem104 - 06-04-2015
I also spoke to Ferrea today. Going to get some suggestions from them.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 09-06-2015
found out MB harder springs that fit 605/6 engines .
actually there are 2 part numbers that fit, one i dont have , the other i need to search for them .
anyhow CDI engines have harder springs and fit our 605/6 drop in.
M104 and 119 have much much stronguer springs and they can be droped in as well.
i´ll found out about part numbers
regards
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - CRD4x4 - 09-07-2015
(09-06-2015, 10:26 AM)barrote found out MB harder springs that fit 605/6 engines .
actually there are 2 part numbers that fit, one i dont have , the other i need to search for them .
anyhow CDI engines have harder springs and fit our 605/6 drop in.
M104 and 119 have much much stronguer springs and they can be droped in as well.
i´ll found out about part numbers
regards
Nice sleuthing!
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - whipplem104 - 09-07-2015
The m104 springs do not fit. They are larger diameter and also go into bind. I expect the m119 to be the same.
Just an update on Ferrea. I have sent in everything to them. They think they have a spring that will work with new retainers etc. but no machine work. Still have my fingers crossed.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 09-07-2015
sThe engines OM 611/612/613 have drop in springs for a 605/6 stonguer , just said
The M104 and M 119 also fit drop in but they are far more strong, unless my head difers from yours.....
and many others , the fact that the Spring bottom does not fit the head does not mean u have necessarlly to machine the head.
but they do fit!!!
regards
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - whipplem104 - 09-08-2015
I know that you can install them but springs can not be wedged in the base. THey need to be able to rotate. And they cannot go into bind. Also the full open pressure is way to high. Otherwise the cam lobes will wear out
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 09-08-2015
ok , i see ....
lets us do that!!! u keep your stock springs to avoid wear the camshaft
i´ll try the Spring grinded!!! is just a 0.5 mm diameter. ( to make it posible to rotate)
still dont have part number available, have to go to the dealer shop. soon soon they will be here.
regards
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - whipplem104 - 09-08-2015
I am not keeping stock springs but rather than put parts in that will cause problems or even potentially I would rather find the right answer.
That is why I have been talking with Ferrea and have sent samples in and taken a bunch of measurements to get a good spring that is correct for the application. Parts like the bottom locator are important and so is not getting spring pressures to high. Not only will it wear parts out but it will just rob power as it takes power to open the valves.
But here is a link.
http://www.compcams.com/Pages/415/truth-about-valve-springs.aspx
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 09-09-2015
instead of having all that hasle why dont u go in a MB dealer and ask for a valve from a engine OM612, inlet Spring is drop in 30% stiffer than stock, the exaust Spring in that engine is same as 605/6 . Spring seat is the same, Spring retainer is the same in some 605/6 models, if not u can have the retainer too.
if u want a even stiffer Spring M104 2.6 has helicoidal speings with the same size as the ones mentioned , just the valve bottom is 28.2mm and the cuting in the head is 27.9 , this springs are rated at 600N 33mm compression .
maybe twice as stiff as the 605 stock.
part number i´ll post it later ...
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - whipplem104 - 09-09-2015
Ferrea got back to me and it looks like we have a spring. original springs were 55lbs at seat and 110 at full lift. The new ones are going to be 74bls and 173 at full lift. They will also have plenty of room for more lift if needed. We are still trying to find a locator that will work. They have one that would but we would need to add a spacer around the guide.
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 09-09-2015
got some numbers about the springs i was talking about!!!
engine 612.962 intake Spring: 110N @ 35mm compression height
exaust Spring: 57N @ 35mm compression height
engine 605.960 exaust and intake same Spring: 57N @ 35mm compression height
engine 612.962 intake Spring: 317N @ 26mm compression height
exaust Spring: 170N @ 26mm compression height
this forementioned Spring is drop in , part number i dont know, but any mb dealer will be able find it at EPC.
regards
engine 605.960 exaust and intake same Spring: 170N @ 35mm compression height
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - whipplem104 - 09-09-2015
Are those in newtons?
RE: Off-the-shelf OM606 stiffer valve springs - barrote - 09-10-2015
yep metric system, thats the one we use this way
one thing u can see , is that i made the test for a N/A cam! seat position is about 35/36mm and compressed height is 25/26mm for intake,
for exaust is only about 8mm lift so seat at 35mm and compression on the 27 mm or so.
u can see that stock springs are a joke , they are just very week even when compressed.
acurracy of test is within more less one 10Newton
Hope u can provide us with some numbers!!!
in a few days i´ll try a set of this stronguer Spring in my engine , then i´ll report back.
regards