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Straight WVO - garage - 09-11-2009
Who else hear runs straight WVO?
We have had 4 mercedes, and 1 1990 f-350 run on WVO without any long term problems.
Now, does anyone know of any long term problems?
Also, what do you think the weight difference is between a full tank of diesel, and a full tank of oil?
RE: Straight WVO - winmutt - 09-11-2009
(09-11-2009, 02:02 PM)garage Now, does anyone know of any long term problems?
Engine death. Injector death. Injection pump death. All things you can look forward to in the next 50k.
RE: Straight WVO - MB TECH - 09-11-2009
I have personally done some extensive repairs due to veggie oil cars at the dealership. However by the looks of the fuel tank, it looked like they were dumping it right from the deep fryer. I am sure that if you complete the proper filtering and separating you should be fairly problem free. FYI the worst vehicle affected ended up needing a new injection pump (thats right new because not even DIS would rebuild it since it was so destroyed) and also new nozzles, filters, lines, and tank strainer with a thorough flush of the tank. This was on a 124 diesel wagon.
RE: Straight WVO - ForcedInduction - 09-11-2009
WVO is the second worse form of engine abuse you can do. The first being running it without oil.
(09-11-2009, 02:02 PM)garage Also, what do you think the weight difference is between a full tank of diesel, and a full tank of oil?
A few ounces. Both weigh a little over 7lbs/gallon.
RE: Straight WVO - garage - 09-11-2009
Yikes, lots of badness huh?!
BUT!, im very spoiled when it comes to driving considering im not paying for gas=]
Changing parts can just be a learning experience for me!
I do however belive my oil is filtered pretty well.
I plan on posting a picture thread with my set up...for farther criticism.
Thanks for the answer forced.
I always thought veggie oil weighd a bit more, but ill take your word for it.
RE: Straight WVO - ForcedInduction - 09-11-2009
(09-11-2009, 10:28 PM)garage BUT!, im very spoiled when it comes to driving considering im not paying for gas=]
Not many people will appreciate bragging about stealing from taxpayers and driving on roads you haven't paid for the right to use.
Try driving through a turnpike toll booth and see if they like you driving on their road without paying.
RE: Straight WVO - willbhere4u - 09-11-2009
Hey I would do it if I had the time and a beater car! the GOV takes enough of my money to begin with not to mention those speeding tickets = road tax! They tax me on the money I earned! and than on what I spend it on! and then when I die they still tax me those bastards!!!! screw all politicians!!!!
Don't steal the government doesn't like competition!!!!
RE: Straight WVO - ForcedInduction - 09-12-2009
(09-11-2009, 10:52 PM)willbhere4u They tax me on the money I earned! and than on what I spend it on!
None of that matters since its not paying all thats due.
If you don't like the taxes, don't vote for the bastards that made them and vote for politicians that will change it.
RE: Straight WVO - garage - 09-12-2009
Im a taxpayer, and have paid for my fair share of drving i belive.
AND
I dont vote, and never will.
but i dont have to pay for fuel
OR i could just be a law breaking hippie...and not care.
RE: Straight WVO - ForcedInduction - 09-12-2009
(09-12-2009, 01:35 AM)garage Im a taxpayer, and have paid for my fair share of drving i belive.What you "belive" and reality are two different things. If you don't pay road tax for the fuel you consume, you're not paying your fair share at all.
Quote:I dont vote, and never will.Then you really have no right to complain about taxes or politicians since you weren't involved in making the decisions that affect you and everyone else.
Quote:but i dont have to pay for fuelYou just steal taxpayer money and wear roads you aren't contributing to maintain.
RE: Straight WVO - garage - 09-12-2009
Reality is, i care more about not contributing to the smog that clouds the mountains.
Sometimes at the dinner table i take more than my fair share...
I never complained about taxes OR politicians
I like to debate as much as the next guy, but not on internet message boards...that seems like your thing from the few other forums that youve been on.
If my car wasnt streetable, and was a rally car perhaps, would you still find somthing to argue about?
Sometimes i Jwalk and smoke funny things.....thats illegal too mr policeman
RE: Straight WVO - winmutt - 09-12-2009
Speeding is a public safety issue. It is the number one contributing factor to vehicular deaths. If you get a speeding ticket quit whining and think of it as a cheap price to pay for NOT killing someone.
WVO unheated will kill your engine. Driving on the roads without paying you fair portion of the taxes angers the rest of us. I hope you get dipped one day.
Do you pay your income taxes?
RE: Straight WVO - ForcedInduction - 09-12-2009
(09-12-2009, 08:13 AM)winmutt Driving on the roads without paying you fair portion of the taxes angers the rest of us. I hope you get dipped one day.
100%
http://www.epa.gov/compliance/citizens/
RE: Straight WVO - willbhere4u - 09-12-2009
I vote in every election! But the police out here have the speed limit's set well below fair or safe speeds just to give everyone tickets I don't remember being able to vote on those speed limits and that is taxation with out representation. if it wast the precedes would be given to those victims you speak of!!! Out here one paved road may be 45mph and a dirt road a few miles down is 55 mph and much less safe!!!
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer
I have no sympathy for politicians that I didn't vote for and there ludicrous spending
and an election between "Douche Bag and Turd Sandwich" doesn't leave much to be desired!
RE: Straight WVO - winmutt - 09-12-2009
Police don't set the speeds, DOT does. Generally DOT is appointed by those you elected. Fair tax is as much of a joke as our current system. Only two things are certain in life, death and taxes. And as far as item #2 there, the middle class will always carry the brunt of the tax burden while the rich will always have tax havens and the poor will always carry the least burden. Fair tax will do nothing but create a huge black market for new untaxed items, much like we have in the drug sector. Do we really want more armed thugs in the streets peddling razor blades, electronics and clothing?
RE: Straight WVO - willbhere4u - 09-12-2009
as long as pimps prostitutes drug dealers and illegal immigrants are pay for there share of taxes as well I wouldn't mind this probably isn't the place for politics I'm sorry as far as I'm concerned they are all corrupted!!! and the IRS sucks I have many friends that have been hurt by them! and as far as road tax I pay plenty in federal and state taxes every pay check!
RE: Straight WVO - garage - 09-12-2009
Lifes not fair, get used to it.
I just want to learn from this forum, not argue with yall.
Alt fuels
Propane, Methanol, H2O, WVO, SVO. NO FLAME WARS!@#!@#
Yup
RE: Straight WVO - winmutt - 09-12-2009
(09-12-2009, 01:20 PM)garage Lifes not fair, get used to it.
I just want to learn from this forum, not argue with yall.
Alt fuels
Propane, Methanol, H2O, WVO, SVO. NO FLAME WARS!@#!@#
Yup
Trust me this is quite civilized for straight WVO talk lol
RE: Straight WVO - ForcedInduction - 09-13-2009
(09-12-2009, 11:58 PM)winmutt Trust me this is quite civilized for straight WVO talk lol
Very civilized by WVO discussion standards.
RE: Straight WVO - winmutt - 09-13-2009
But hes right I did label this as no flame wars. At the very least you should be heating you oil garage otherwise you ARE going to kill your engine.
RE: Straight WVO - TotalDiesel - 09-13-2009
I have been to several BioDiesel Seminars and Plants. I have learned the benefits of WVO and BioDiesel has many more benefits that standard ULSD. The first diesel engine was designed to be run on peanut oil so that the farmers would become self sufficient. Diesels made then were all designed to be run on BioFuel. Since OPEC came into the fuel industry, they "Paid" Manufacturers to run Diesel cycle engines on Crude Oil Diesel Fuel. Engines made since then to this day were designed to handle the terrible fuel. Since it is a carbon based fuel it is a very dirty fuel for engines. Since recent ULSD requirements based on epa standards 2007, Diesel fuel must have even less sulfur in On Road Diesel Fuel. The sulfur is the one chemical in the fuel which allows lubrication for the Pumps and Injectors. Studies have shown that any of the newer diesel fuel injectors (Especially Direct Injection) have a life of about 50k miles with ULSD.- WVO does not rely on Sulfer as a lubricant in which the BioFuel is entirely a lubricant itself. It is basically a stable oil which can be used in the combustion cycle of a Diesel Engine. BioDiesel is simple filtered WVO which has a simple chemical process only to make it more stable under temperature change. Filtered WVO has nearly the same BTU per pound compared to standard ULSD. OPEC Pays companies to not promote this BioFuel so that we will still buy fuel from them. But in reality, BioDiesel and simply filtered WVO has many more lubrication benefits over standard ULSD. the use of this fuel will add lots of life to the future of your engine. Since These mercedes turbo diesel use IDI the lower fuel pressure is easier on the engine at 2600psi compared to indirect injection 26,000psi. This fuel burns much more cleanly. I run basic filtered (Used) vegetable oil in my car not so much to be environmentally friendly but mainly because of the lubrication benefits over ULSD. The fuel is cheap, all it costs is the drive to the restaurant and back and to filter the oil.
RE: Straight WVO - garage - 09-13-2009
Well if this is civilized, i cant wait to post some pictures of my setup and see where that goes!
So an in tank heater would be the way to go?
Cause i have an inline flat plate heat exchanger, it seems to do a wonderful job.
Try an get the oil to the same viscosity as diesel..or as close as you can, correct?
The oil is usually heated once before the first filtration also.
TotalDiesel, well thats quite a breath of some fresh air.
How long have you been running WVO? And with any problems?
I wouldnt mind ONEDAY trying to make my own BioDiesel from oil.
But yes, the fuel is very cheap=]
RE: Straight WVO - JB3 - 09-14-2009
Just read through this, I have to agree, this is the most civilized WVO debate I have ever read, SO FAR, we will see.
My two cents garage in essay form-
Ive looked at several trucks engine internals, one 7.3 with 150,000 WVO miles, injectors are clean, fuel system is in good shape for mileage. one 7.3 with over 400,000 miles, 350,000 on WVO. Engine is predictable tired, but the same, pretty clean and damage free.
Both owners are highly disciplined and don't screw around with oil quality or maintenance or shut down and start up procedures.
Ive also looked at a 5.9 cummins common rail that had a blown high pressure fuel pump, and blown injectors after 30 miles on WVO, as the owner stated.
Turns out he pumped 50% water into his fuel tank and toasted the entire fuel system in one drive down to the super market. At 750 bucks an injector x 6, plus 2500 for a pump, that was an expensive bone headed mistake. Its painful to see a great engine like that brought to such a pass and then to listen to this guy go on about how green he is. Many times I have had to restrain myself from slapping someone. Disregard the fact that hes now replacing permanent engine components like tires or wipers. How green is that?
For me personally, this scenario has played itself out at least a dozen times, and each time, its very difficult not to condemn an entire industry because of these fools.
In the end, is there long term engine damage? in my experience, if you use the technology wisely, no. HOWEVER, if you at any time take the technology for granted, you can definitely have problems as numerous people have demonstrated.
The biggest problem is that its too easy. Its too easy to make a diesel run on WVO, meaning that there are dozens of fly by night conversion systems out there that are far more destructive in the long term, and many sharks that will promise you literally anything to get your money.
The problem with that is, as you can see on this board, most of the people on here are technicians of one type or another.
When Joe farmer or bill hippie damage their car, it ends up in the technicians hands to fix. You end up seeing the dirty underside of an entire industry which at times appears to be highly destructive for the most part. Is it any wonder that people are passionately pissed about it? I agree with a lot of the sentiment, its infuriating to have to deal with these people coming into your shop, BUT, its the high mileage, well maintained rigs that always impress me. There is hope.
Having said that, I run WVO and I think there are plenty of merits to using the technology. The tax issue is not black or white, its simply descriptive of an industry in its larvae form, I have paid for officially taxed and pumped WVO at a fueling station in the past. I have also had to turn on the charm and talk my way into grease bins, (no easy feat for me).
Im a pretty mellow guy, so I can have this perspective, but I have a lot of professional contacts that range from, "get that the F out of my shop" to "I dont give a shit how destructive it is, the more engine damage, the more money for me" to "Rudolf diesel so on and so forth, no reason why it should not work".
2 more cents-
careful of disinformation. Anything you read on a forum in a debate is not automatically true. Haters and Lovers are both equally and historically guilty of this crime.
The problem with this is that unfortunately there is very little in the way of professional research done on this technology at this point, meaning that lots of times its the forums where you have to get most of your knowledge.
All Im saying is that if you are asking about this technology, beware of of sweeping general statements about the industry as a whole. I am far more inclined to believe and learn from personal experiences than open statements.
Couple of examples on both sides-
VO is illegal. Nope, see arkansas state law as an example. VO is a largely unregulated fuel by the federal government, the whole industry is too small to make it worthwhile to set up a tax structure as far as I can see so far. Most states there are really no specific regulatory laws in place. This has been my personal experience when I get pulled over in other states. Cops are mostly bemused and end up asking you questions about it. "thats a 500 dollar ticket for crossing 6 lanes with your middle finger in the air listening to the kingston trio, but what kind of fuel economy do you get?" STEALING the oil out of bins is illegal. Ask, and if they say no, move on.
Sulfur is a lubricant. Nope, the process of refining out sulfur for emissions reasons ALSO removes naturally occuring lubricity agents in the fuel. The removal of sulfer is linked with lubrication issues, but not a lubricant itself, common misconception. Look it up.
VO will work in ANY engine Anyone who works on diesels knows there are diesels you would not touch with a ten foot pole. Beware of sweeping promises, it means that someone is not completely informed and probably a fool. Example, I would not put VO is 6.0 Ford unless compelled by force.
The Whole Road tax issue This is not a black and white topic. Think about it objectively, If I drive an electric car, am I paying a road tax on the fuel I don't buy? Am I driving on the road? How about a hybrid? how about a CNG fuel? how about a propane fuel? If I buy a fuel efficient vehicle, should I be charged a flat rate road tax the same as someone driving an inefficient vehicle? If I ride a bicycle, should I try and mail a check to pay for my use of the road? Road maintenance funds are not solely from fuel tax. The issue is not worth getting upset over and is unfortunately an issue that for some reason carries a lot of emotional overtone.
RE: Straight WVO - TotalDiesel - 09-14-2009
Thanks Dropnosky for clearing that up for everyone. I realized I had some errors in my word ordering. Thanks though, great info! The more the better.
RE: Straight WVO - JB3 - 09-14-2009
sorry to pick on you, I was just exasperated. There are very few of us moderates.
another horror story to give you an example of these people who anger technicians-
Guy comes into the shop, has a nice old 7.3, one of the early 90s body style with 4 doors and a short bed. Good looking truck. His complaint is he feels that the vehicle is not shifting properly. Ok, thats possible, truck his about 210,000 miles. Obviously, the first rule of automotive work is that you never trust the customer, you verify the complaint, so I decide this is worth a test drive to see how it shifts. Known him for a while, know he has a VO system on this truck, put it on himself, and should not be trusted generally with complicated things.
take the thing out, totally gutless and seems to be sucking air from all the sputtering and smoking its doing. Give it some gas, and it builds a little power and seems to run ok, and in my stupidity, i continue to try and verify the complaint about the tranny. The thing has a super high restriction in the fuel system, no wonder its not shifting properly. The complaint was shifting on the highway, so I get on the road to go down one exit where it dies and strands me in a bad place.
Manage to restart it after pulling the fuel filter out and shaking it off a bit and jamming my hand down in there to pull out all the goop clogging things up.
The fuel system is completely full of brown crap that looks like pea soup mixed with feces. Guy refuses to believe the fuel system has anything to do with his problem, and flips out when we went into his fuel filter to look. Turns out he altered the entire character of the fuel system buy just crimping some hard lines and putting white household silicone on them. Filter is a black and yellow nightmare that looks like he crammed about 15 sticks of butter in it. Sucking air from 3 different places. Guy adamantly refuses to believe this is necessary to resolve before we check the tranny, but of course, its clear what the problem is. We end up having to eat the stock fuel filter we put in for him as well this time since I did not get permission before I did it after the highway incident. He finally leaves, getting a free filter change and air leak repair out of this after screaming and tantrums and about 3 hours. Now since the truck runs better, he believes we were lying to him.
Comes back 3 days later with a different complaint, now he is convinced he has a brake drag that robbing the truck of power and that we were involved in it. Filter again as usual.
In my opinion, problem customers are always multiplied tenfold when you mix in WVO and their own sense of a higher green calling when they dabble in it. On the other hand, if there ever was an advertisement for the 7.3, this was it for me.
RE: Straight WVO - garage - 09-14-2009
Well drop, thats alot of good info and thanks.
I guess this is a real heated topic.
What do you mean in your sig by, "overcomplicated" if you dont mind me asking?
RE: Straight WVO - ForcedInduction - 09-14-2009
(09-14-2009, 09:15 AM)dropnosky beware of of sweeping general statementsYou aren't following your own advice. States can do as they please, but when its not legal at a federal level the states don't have the power to override the government and make it legal for them or other states.
...
VO is illegal. Nope, see arkansas state law as an example.
The EPA states clearly on their own website: http://www.epa.gov/smartway/growandgo/documents/factsheet-biodiesel.htm
Quote:Raw vegetable oil or recycled greases (also called waste cooking oil) that have not been processed into esters are not biodiesel, and are not registered by EPA for legal use in vehicles. In addition, vehicles converted to use these oils would likely need to be certified by the EPA; to date EPA has not certified any conversions.
Quote:This has been my personal experience when I get pulled over in other states. Cops are mostly bemused and end up asking you questions about it. "thats a 500 dollar ticket for crossing 6 lanes with your middle finger in the air listening to the kingston trio, but what kind of fuel economy do you get?"Thats merely officer ignorance. They do a good job, but every cop can't possibly know every law. They see all the "news" about people running on vegetable oil, conversions, etc and assume there is nothing wrong with it, especially when the people doing it genuinely don't know its not legal.
Quote:Sulfur is a lubricant. NopeSulfur is a natural contaminant of oil, it doesn't do anything beneficial. Its where the names "sweet" and "sour" crude oil come from and why sweet crude has a higher value.
Quote:The Whole Road tax issue This is not a black and white topic.Actually it very much is. This is one point where states do have control. The main problem is that many (most) VO users actively try not to pay taxes. Its like the petty 7-11 thief that says, "Its only a candy bar. They've already taken enough of my money through high prices, I deserve this for free." A thief is a thief.
Quote:Think about it objectively, If I drive an electric car, am I paying a road tax on the fuel I don't buy?Most states will be adding it to the registration fee and some are considering a miles-traveled based fee at registration.
Quote:How about a hybrid?You're paying road tax on the fuel you use. The energy charging the batteries is coming from the engine, directly through charging or indirectly through absorbing vehicle momentum.
Quote:how about a CNG fuel? how about a propane fuel?They are supposed to buy from road fueling stations that add it to the price. Jo-Blow Grill Tank Filler Co. isn't supposed to fill tanks inside a vehicle.
Quote:If I ride a bicycle, should I try and mail a check to pay for my use of the road?Bicycles don't wear roads.
RE: Straight WVO - willbhere4u - 09-14-2009
B.S. bike don't wear roads they just do a lesser amount of it! you put 100,000 bicycles on a road there is bound to be some where! if it was
If it was Illegal to run WVO they would crack down on it!
When they do then it will be stealing!
until they enforce there own laws don't even bother worrying about it.
thats there problem they are stealing from us!
and I didn't vote for Oboma so the less taxes I can pay the better the countrey will be he cant waste what he doesn't have or wont get!
RE: Straight WVO - garage - 09-14-2009
A theif is a thief, yes.
I bet we all are.
I run my car on free fuel..thats what matters to me.
Its not hurting anybody.
Even though im sure forced could find plenty of ways it hurts people
and until they do crack down on it, whos really saying its wrong??
I dont hear any politicians, that you speak of, speaking out about this ever growing problem
RE: Straight WVO - tantank79 - 09-15-2009
Dropnosky, excellent post.
"Road maintenance funds are not solely from fuel tax," and according to some of the reading I've done, most fuel tax does not go to road maintenance.
"Bicycles don't wear roads." --That is like saying bicycles are frictionless. Come on now.
RE: Straight WVO - JB3 - 09-15-2009
Ok Forced, ill concede this point. Reading the EPA blurb on the first page it looks arguable and non committal, but when you read further in the support document, you find this excerpt-
Neat vegetable oils and recycled greases (also called waste cooking oil or yellow grease) that have not been processed into mono-alkyl esters are not biodiesel. These raw oils, used as fuel extenders or fuel substitutes, are not registered with EPA and are not legal to use as a motor vehicle fuel. Furthermore, cooking oil is physically and chemically different than diesel fuel and its use in conventional engines will generally cause negative effects on emissions and engine durability.
Because of the potential for increased emissions, it is considered unlawful tampering to convert a vehicle designed for diesel fuel to operate on waste oil without EPA certification. To date, EPA has not certified any conversions for waste oils. Even with EPA certification, conversions may violate the terms of the vehicle warranty.
According to the EPA, section 211 of the clean air act authorizes them to make this kind of general policy. It looks definitively like the EPA is stating that the use of VO is an illegal act, BUT, I could find no information on any kind of punishment for committing this illegal act. I read further into these articles and it appears more like its a matter of, "we dont have enough evidence, so we'll make this illegal until we do. Also, we are not even going to bother making this a broad law, we are going to specifically outlaw only specific oils we've heard a little about" This law is like trying to catch algae with some hammock netting. Just specific enough to be mildly irritating, but essentially ineffective given the dozens of oils it does not address. It looks to me like this policy is based on the infamous journey to forever early 80s cold VO studies in generators. Not applicable to heated fuel systems or current technology.
The certification process for the EPA looks like a real bear too, like 14 different steps to certification and additional ongoing testing procedures. With the large variety of different types of conversions out there, and the obvious general divisiveness in the VO conversion community, its no wonder any single class of car has of yet been certified. Ive only read of Grease car trying so far.
Then you find documents like this for one example- http://www.greencarcongress.com/2007/02/v100_jetta_aces.html There is plenty of emissions evidence out there to indicate that EPA emissions testing will be a non issue for VO.
Factor in the Individual states who are making it legal and non-taxable and we have an incredible foggy situation where you have hostile competing small companies, general lack of data, EPA uninformed bureaucracy, State uninformed bureaucracy, and thousands of individuals doing whatever they want. Plus this is a SMALL industry, not even close to large enough to really bring federal attention for taxation yet.
All goes back to an industry in its larvae stage. Eventually larger more professional companies will start to agree and cooperate on standards and products, lobbying will take place, policy will be made, and well have something similar to the biodiesel industry right now.
That or some new technology will wipe out interest. Well just have to see.
Basically, whats clear is that although the EPA has evidently decided to make this illegal, that was YEARS ago, and is obviously completely uninforced. There is ample EPA sanctioned emissions evidence, ive even taken my own car in before, and the emissions are definitely cleaner, but the EPA requires broad test data on specific vehicle classes, which is well out of the budget of conversion companies, and it would take a national attempt to collate data on individuals.
Watch, something like the National Biodiesel board will grow in the next 5 years for VO. There was already an attempt, but it was run by a recognized problem individual.
Im not too worried about the EPA busting down my door after what happened in IL when they already tried it with that older guy. It would be a public relations nightmare as they demonstrated to try and punish a private citizen for attempting to do his part ending foreign oil dependence and trying to be environmental.
RE: Straight WVO - JB3 - 09-16-2009
Quote:Think about it objectively, If I drive an electric car, am I paying a road tax on the fuel I don't buy?"Most states will be adding it to the registration fee and some are considering a miles-traveled based fee at registration." quote Forced
Quote:How about a hybrid?"You're paying road tax on the fuel you use. The energy charging the batteries is coming from the engine, directly through charging or indirectly through absorbing vehicle momentum." quote Forced
But this is a double standard. If you run VO, most people still buy diesel at the pump for start up and shut down. In that circumstance I ALSO pay road tax for the fuel I use, just like a hybrid. Why should I be penalized simply because I can go farther between pumps on my alternative fuel than a hybrid can? It makes more sense to me that I be given a tax INCENTIVE to do this, since I for low cost can convert an existing car to an alternative fuel and not go out and do my part adding to the throwaway culture by buying the latest automotive toy.
From what you are saying about an electric car tax, they are designing a tax structure to tap this market. This is what I mean by not a black and white issue. When the first mass produced electric car came out, did you say that these people were stealing from the government because they did not pay road tax because they did not buy fuel at the pump?
Its a similar situation. We can't just stamp a right or wrong on something in this way, and at the same time allow similar alternative energy scenarios as regards to road tax and road use more freedom. Its more complicated than black or white.
Given time and industry maturity, these things will work out. The US government will get its piece of the pie, believe me, there is no incentive for them to crank down on something when it can be taxed and regulated instead.
RE: Straight WVO - Section106 - 09-25-2009
In Virginia there isn't a fuel tax but a sales tax. I make my own biodiesel so I don't pay any sales tax other than on the methanol I buy locally. I've actually tried to pay my "road taxes" here in Va but the DMV and Dept of Taxation have no mechanism for collecting taxes on homemade biodiesel.
RE: Straight WVO - mtnewguy - 12-04-2009
I actually due pay road tax on the veg oil that I use. After extensive harassment state government officials, my house is now registered as a fuel distribution station, or some foolishness like that, and my dad and I prepay for fuel consumption on a yearly basis.
It is unfair to place all blame on the vegetable oil users when there is no mechanism in place within the government for which to pay fuel taxes. I have no issue with paying taxes, but the federal government has no ability to collect on a person by person basis. And besides, a two tank conversion is really nothing more than blending fuels which is perfectly legal.
RE: Straight WVO - ForcedInduction - 12-04-2009
(12-04-2009, 05:15 PM)mtnewguy I have no issue with paying taxes, but the federal government has no ability to collect on a person by person basis.Thats because VO is not legally a fuel. They can't collect taxes on something thats illegal. That would be like trying to tax pot smokers for their weed.
Quote: And besides, a two tank conversion is really nothing more than blending fuels which is perfectly legal.Ignoring the fuel, the conversion itself is illegal unless the tank and installation has been cleared by DOT and the whole conversion system EPA certified, plus CARB if you're in Kalifornia.
RE: Straight WVO - mtnewguy - 12-04-2009
That is all well and good, but I was simply making the point that labeling all those who make use of WVO thieves is unnecessary. The laws are antiquated anyway, so perhaps continued growth in the use of alternative fuel sources will force the various levels of government to alter the way in which they collect road tax. The use of hybrid, electric, and multi-fueled vehicles means that taxes at the pumps no longer directly corresponds to number of miles driven on the road.
On a positive note to my fellow, logical, grease burners: Responsible use of WVO oil is the key to maintaining your engine.
Key steps I've learned to not causing unnecessary damage to your engine:
- Always make sure your oil is properly filtered and de-watered.
- Wait until the engine is running at operating temperature before switching over to ensure that the rings are sealing properly, thus limiting blow-by of the WVO.
- Always purge, and not just a few seconds to make sure that the engine starts in the morning, but run several miles on dino-diesel to help break up any carbon gunk that could be setting up on the internals.
- Consider that a little bit of WVO is sent to your diesel tank with ever switch back, so be sure to run diesel tank empty every so often and refilling it with fresh fuel.
- Also, I've recently seen amazing results of water/methanol injection on my dad's '99 E300 TurboDiesel.
RE: Straight WVO - ForcedInduction - 12-04-2009
(12-04-2009, 06:02 PM)mtnewguy Responsible use of WVO oil is...
Converting it to BioDiesel.
RE: Straight WVO - mtnewguy - 12-04-2009
Soon as my engine goes to the grave I'll start agreeing with you. Until then, I'll point out that biodiesel was also once an experiment fuel as well. It seems unlikely that someone accidentally spilled some ethanol and lye into a jug of oil and it ran perfectly. Sure, I don't know the detailed history of biodiesel, but I'm willing to bet there were plenty of issues that went along with it.
RE: Straight WVO - ForcedInduction - 12-04-2009
(12-04-2009, 07:15 PM)mtnewguy I'll point out that biodiesel was also once an experiment fuel as well.Except that people took the effort of doing it right. Making sure its compatible with engines, standardized its structure, got it legalized with the EPA, got it taxed, got manufacturers to approve mixtures of it and made it available at many public fuel pumps.
RE: Straight WVO - mtn3wguy - 12-06-2009
As I already said, as soon as my engine shats itself, I will agree with you.
RE: Straight WVO - ForcedInduction - 12-06-2009
A lot of people abuse cocaine without dying, does that mean its safe for everyone to use?
RE: Straight WVO - JB3 - 12-07-2009
(12-04-2009, 11:11 PM)ForcedInduction(12-04-2009, 07:15 PM)mtnewguy I'll point out that biodiesel was also once an experiment fuel as well.Except that people took the effort of doing it right. Making sure its compatible with engines, standardized its structure, got it legalized with the EPA, got it taxed, got manufacturers to approve mixtures of it and made it available at many public fuel pumps.
We are kind of beating a dead horse here, think of how many caustic destructive blends of biodiesel people came up with before industry standardization and quality control. People are STILL coming up with caustic blends of biodiesel in their backyard.
All of these things that you hate about the VO industry take lots of money, lots of standardization, and most importantly, cooperation across the board. These people are all still bickering about the how and why, we are a little ways from, ok, THIS is how its done, now there are options in that method. As a going concern, the VO conversion industry has really only been pushing since about the year 2000. The VO FUEL supply industry effectively does not exist. Biodiesel has been more mainstream for 10-15 years longer.
Let me put it this way, its like you are not pleased with a baby because its not out there and getting a job yet. That baby has to mature, grow older and better and learn to meet the requirements we want it too.
Its going to take a little time, and the efforts of people who want the industry to grow, not to get rich quick. Like I said before, watch, these things will start to happen unless the concept is wiped out by new technology.
Theres not that much else to say, on a lot of big points, I totally agree with you. I get more than pissed every time I see a messed up fuel system, BUT, if we were to all think the same way, we'd all still be riding horses. At one point, horses were proven, reliable, safe technology with a good tax structure and support network. How DARE someone come up with a way to burn combustible fluid in a carriage without a horse!? Where are they going to buy their feed? get blacksmith work done? corral them? You mean it just sits there inactive when you are not using it, how will we charge livestock maintenance costs?
A technological society is constantly changing and adapting, lack of structure for new technologies does not mean evil, or totally illegal, it means adapting needs to take place. Which came first, the chicken or the egg?
RE: Straight WVO - GREASY_BEAST - 12-08-2009
I burned WVO in my 617 for ~40kmi with not problems, but I was VERY careful about the quality of oil I burned, and the temperature to which it was heated.
As far as the EPA is concerned, I called them once. Now, this was about 3 years ago, but when I finally found someone who know what I was talking about she advised me that the only thing I could possibly get nabbed for was fuel tax evasion. Which is impossible if you send a check every month (for the fuel tax at the diesel rate, or whatever) to the correct people in your state government. Even though it isn't a "legal" fuel, the EPA simply doesn't have the resources to pursue individuals. They have big, multinational fish to fry and they simply aren't interested in individual citizens. However, the specific mention of SVO on their website is interesting...
In any case I don't burn WVO anymore 'cause I don't have a place to process it.
RE: Straight WVO - DeliveryValve - 12-08-2009
I am a WVO user and I used it on one vehicle approximately 60% of the time with other 40% diesel or commercial biodiesel. Few years ago I went through the hoops to register as a Blender to be able to pay for the 18 cents a mile road tax, Got the 2 million dollar insurance for the hauler license to pick up WVO. I have to agree that it is an illegal fuel with the EPA. I have to agree that it is not a fuel that can be used on just any vehicle. STANDARDS is key word here. I wouldn't run WVO on a TDI, or any newer diesels for that matter. These setups are not as forgiving as the venerable Mercedes all iron IDI. But even that engine can get destroyed easily by the average joe who thinks they know what they are doing but reality of it is they don't. They are the types who get sucked in it by hype and do little to educate themselves because it is far too easy to run WVO, as dropnosky stated earlier, on the short term without noticing the damaging effects it can do on the long term. This is where STANDARDS saves the average joe. I will eventually start making BioDiesel so I can run it on my other diesels. I am not a big fan of big oil companies. I am absolutely not a fan of foreign oil.
RE: Straight WVO - benztek - 12-09-2009
WINMUTT - I will let you know when the Gwinnett County PD decides to start dipping fuel tanks. Give me a heads up when that start out there!! I have stayed out of this conversation but I figured I would "throw a machete into this intellectual thicket". I have been running 50/50 mix of used, filtered transmission fluid with ULSD. I have been running it for about 6 months now with no issues to this point. I heard about to many issues with WVO and injection pump failure, and I have seen it personally. Although I do believe that these were very ignorant users who dumped straight WVO into the tank of an 05 E-320 cdi. I dont think that an informed user of WVO that knows the risks/rewards well and is willing to take the precautions and risks is any skin off my back. So what there not paying road tax on it. It doesnt bother me, JUST MY OPINION THOUGH.
RE: Straight WVO - Section106 - 12-24-2009
(12-07-2009, 11:22 AM)dropnosky People are STILL coming up with caustic blends of biodiesel in their backyard.
Bio is only caustic if you don't wash it properly. I'm just saying....
RE: Straight WVO - JB3 - 12-25-2009
(12-24-2009, 11:50 PM)Section106 Bio is only caustic if you don't wash it properly. I'm just saying....
I agree, perhaps I should have phrased my original remark a little better. By caustic blends I meant heavy elements of lye, or ethanol or methanol.
But you see what Im saying I think, in that yes, there are now standards for commercially sold biodiesel through the efforts of a national coalition of biodiesel processors and effective lobbying, but that did not happen overnight.
Even so, theres plenty of home brew out there, and in many of these home brew forms, through mistakes or oversights in processing, it CAN be a pretty destructive fuel. I mean, how many of us has seen biodiesel sluff out the entire inside of a rubber fuel line? Ive used the stuff in a parts washer before with great success.
The complication with VO is that there are two parts, a need to control fuel quality AND a need to control system quality. Biodiesel just needed the one part, so its going to be interesting to see how this works out barring other technical developments that may invalidate the whole VO idea. Who knows, in ten years maybe we'll all be rolling around in cars powered by large rubber bands.
RE: Straight WVO - HoleshotHolset - 12-31-2009
(12-25-2009, 08:56 AM)dropnosky Who knows, in ten years maybe we'll all be rolling around in cars powered by large rubber bands.
Or compressed air...
RE: Straight WVO - Section106 - 01-01-2010
(12-25-2009, 08:56 AM)dropnosky Ive used the stuff in a parts washer before with great success.
Really? My Dad bought me a parts washer from Northern and I was thinking of using bio in it but was worried about the paint being eaten away. I guess I'll try it.
I cleaned a 4 speed out an 83 240D with biodiesel. I used degreaser and scrubbed for hours and couldn't get it clean. I finally put some bio in a spray bottle and tried that. The dirt, grime, and old oil was simply washed away by the bio. Best cleaner on Earth.
RE: Straight WVO - sw8_2dg - 01-01-2010
i've never run straight veggie. i always blend it w/my diesel