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+--- Thread: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine (/showthread.php?tid=679)
trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - larryratcliff - 09-13-2009
To my present understanding this was available in a turbo charged, non intercooled I5 3.0 it put out 123 hp and 181 lb ft of torque in the 300 TD in its most advanced form (stock).
I guess my question is is there an affordable way to get this to somewhere closer to 300 ft lb of torque without completely killing gas mileage. If I add an efficient intercooler and more boost can I get to my stated goal with the 617 engine itself?
In its successors were there any that would come close to meeting this requirement that only had the computer controls to the engine that could be easily or somewhat easily transplanted to another vehicle.
To give an example of what I consider somewhat easy I put a 96 911 engine in my 74 911. I had to have the harness and ecu from the 96 engine and patch it into my 74 harness.... this would classify as somewhat easy ..
Thanks in advance for the responses,
Larry
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - ForcedInduction - 09-13-2009
If you want torque you'll want a VNT turbo. Check out my 240's last dyno graph that compares the stock K26 vs a VNT. Both have stock fuel settings and no significant changes other than the turbo.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/dyno-results-t-187.html
With that torque curve it still averages 27mpg.
I haven't done a dyno of my 300D with maxed out fuel yet, it still needs a few tweaks.
With a VNT, you'll get peak torque between 1700-3000rpm. With a wastegated turbo, your peak will be above 2500rpm and fall off quick.
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - larryratcliff - 09-13-2009
(09-13-2009, 01:07 AM)ForcedInduction If you want torque you'll want a VNT turbo. Check out my 240's last dyno graph that compares the stock K26 vs a VNT. Both have stock fuel settings and no significant changes other than the turbo.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/dyno-results-t-187.html
With that torque curve it still averages 27mpg.
I haven't done a dyno of my 300D with maxed out fuel yet, it still needs a few tweaks.
With a VNT, you'll get peak torque between 1700-3000rpm. With a wastegated turbo, your peak will be above 2500rpm and fall off quick.
that 194 is RWTQ? Also from your signature it looks like you have no inter cooler? My application is for towing so the target torque is about 100 ft lbs higher than what you have shown there.
It may sound crazy but since there are adapter plates available what I want to do is drop the most potent 5 cyl /6 cyl Mercedes diesel that is feasible into a toyota truck to try to build a high 20's low 30's mpg truck that can tow my 911 to the track. (my trailer and car combined is only 3400 pounds and I presently tow it with my '96 jeep with a 4.0 6 185 hp 245 lb ft of torque)
My daily driver is an '09 jetta tdi that amazes me every day with its 249 ft lb of torque and 139 hp... so I am thinking that it must be possible to make a 3.0 even without the computer controls out perform my 2.0 vw engine. Change the turbo, add an efficient intercooler etc.... I dont want a black smoke blowing engine though... I try to convince people to switch to diesel every day and the little jetta does a good job of persuading. Big plums of black smoke is what make people hate diesels (at least in N. Ca)...
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - ForcedInduction - 09-13-2009
An intercooler doesn't increase power on a diesel, it allows power to be safely maintained for longer.
Quote:I dont want a black smoke blowing engine though... I try to convince people to switch to diesel every day and the little jetta does a good job of persuading.Thats because your TDI has an exhaust particulate filter. Without it, the car would smoke like every other diesel.
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - larryratcliff - 09-13-2009
(09-13-2009, 01:40 AM)ForcedInduction An intercooler doesn't increase power on a diesel, it allows power to be safely maintained for longer.
Quote:I dont want a black smoke blowing engine though... I try to convince people to switch to diesel every day and the little jetta does a good job of persuading.Thats because your TDI has an exhaust particulate filter. Without it, the car would smoke like every other diesel.
I guess a particulate filter could be added to this application too ... It seems to me that I have seen plenty of earlier diesels that seem to not blow much smoke and some that seem to be on fire as they drive down the road. Many of the high performance applications I have seen blow smoke like crazy. Most of the tdi jetta's going back as far as '98 seem to not smoke at all. Maybe they all have particulate filters? I have never seen an F250 (7.3 diesel) or even a dodge (6bt) blow excessive smoke.....
It would surprise me a lot that an inter cooler would not help performance even in a diesel. Since a cooler air charge makes for a more dense air charge and therefore a more densely packed amount of air could be pushed into the cylinder. Also for that matter more boost (pressure) can be run safely without running into crazy cylinder and exhaust temperatures.
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - DrewGerhan - 09-18-2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM2onjdk3Cw
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - ForcedInduction - 09-18-2009
Thanks for the video, now we know to avoid Tony Wildman when looking for a tuner!
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - larryratcliff - 09-18-2009
(09-18-2009, 10:31 PM)DrewGerhan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM2onjdk3Cw
It sure seems like finding that sweet spot of boost and pump is a lot of work. Are there any aftermarket common rail systems? Just thinking out loud but it seems like the same problems that gassers faced prior to the mid 80's. Actually thinking about CIS injected porsches ... or modified mechanical injected porsches... you had to make it run super rich at some point in the rpm range in order to have it just right under boost or mechanical injected cars had a pump very specific to the application.
Now the cdi engines are pumping out serious torque and HP but are seriously computer controlled.... However, it seems like a computer controlled pump where you could map the amount of diesel at any boost / rpm range seems like it would have great advantages. So an aftermarket computer controlled pump sure seems like it would have a market.
Stock powerstroke diesels dont smoke like that....
(09-18-2009, 10:43 PM)ForcedInduction Thanks for the video, now we know to avoid Tony Wildman when looking for a tuner!
LOL +1
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - ForcedInduction - 09-18-2009
(09-18-2009, 10:51 PM)larryratcliff However, it seems like a computer controlled pump where you could map the amount of diesel at any boost / rpm range seems like it would have great advantages.There is no reason a mechanical pump with a properly calibrated aneroid can't support lots of power and still run the engine very clean.
Quote:So an aftermarket computer controlled pump sure seems like it would have a marketThere is, if you have E3,000-E10,000 to spare.
http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/content/language2/html/3690.htm
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - larryratcliff - 09-18-2009
I should make a video of my jetta. I cant light the tires up but I can make them bark a few times... It has plenty of acceleration and blows 0 smoke. The smoke does not bother me as much as the people who see the car. I would love to see more wide spread adoption of diesel in the US.
The wide spread adoption of diesel in the US would go a long way to reducing our trade deficit. The a3 tdi's, jetta's, bmw 320d's and so on will do their part in reducing US fuel consumption, less green house emissions, and continue to drive down the cost of diesel at the pumps.
In all honesty, a bone stock f250 diesel, or dodge cummins would more than meet my needs. In fact it would be like hitting a tack with a sledge hammer. I only want to tow my 2k pound 69 911 to the track. My current trailer is way to heavy as it weights in at 1500 pounds... Building a toyota with a OM617 will cost more than buying a descent older used dodge or ford. I saw a nice 97 dodge for sale today for only 5500 bucks... The project /adventure and trying to maximize fuel efficiency along the way are what keeps me on forums like this. btw not "blowing smoke" about the dodge:
5500 97 dodge 4x4 super cab 5.9 turbo diesel:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/cto/1379648793.html
or another 97 dodge 5.9 turbo diesel for only 4k 2 wheel drive regular cab:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sby/ctd/1381467276.html
I am just a car enthusiast saying you dont need a 5.9 cummins and 14k pounds of towing capacity to get the job done. a little toyota with a 3.0 mercedes diesel with 200 ish hp and 300 ish ft lb of torque would probably meet with most peoples needs and get a lot better economy...
(09-18-2009, 11:03 PM)ForcedInduction(09-18-2009, 10:51 PM)larryratcliff However, it seems like a computer controlled pump where you could map the amount of diesel at any boost / rpm range seems like it would have great advantages.There is no reason a mechanical pump with a properly calibrated aneroid can't support lots of power and still run the engine very clean.
Quote:So an aftermarket computer controlled pump sure seems like it would have a marketThere is, if you have $3,000-$10,000 to spare.
http://www.bosch-motorsport.com/content/language2/html/3690.htm
WOW! initial thought was 3k seems reasonable compared to a 1200 euro myna pump but you were talking 3-10k euros!!
(09-18-2009, 11:03 PM)ForcedInduction There is no reason a mechanical pump with a properly calibrated aneroid can't support lots of power and still run the engine very clean.I am not saying that it cant be done. I just look at the cost of engine management systems for gassers today and think ... wow much cheaper than even having a mechanical MFI pump rebuilt and re calibrated (gasser). The new common rail technologies are worth getting excited over... If it would not be such a HUGE PITA I would try to find a wrecked '09 jetta and put the little 2.0 in a toyota truck. with just a chip that thing can make 175 hp and 291 ft lb if you believe everything you read... but I really dont doubt it...
http://www.upsolute.com/index.php?option=com_upsolute&task=car&id=1943&id_marke=6&id_model=13300
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - Rudolf_Diesel - 09-18-2009
Quote:Thanks for the video, now we know to avoid Tony Wildman when looking for a tuner!
I have a chip from Tony...He is good people. When he burns a chip for you he bases the tunes on the info you give him.
I have injectors that can flow 95% more fuel than stock at the extreme setting.
My tunes:
Stock setting - no smoke; Econo setting (40 H.P.) - no smoke; Tow setting (80 H.P.) - a little haze; Extreme setting (120 H.p.) some smoke until boost catches up with fuel, could be lag from IC.
On the extreme setting I will blow some black smoke until the boost comes on , but that could be from lag due to IC - a VNT could help with that.
For $350 bucks he will burn four modes and if you want changes he will do it for free as many times as you want.
I normally don't run extreme because I don't like blowing smoke and it is only when you romp on it, just like running without an ALDA.
I have beat many a camaro, mustang and built ricers on the streets only to see a gaping mouth at the fact that they were beat by a 8500# dually.
If the info is not correctly given to Tony, then his tunes mat not be right for the vehicle - also the driver has alot to do with it!
Just my $.02, now back to the 617!
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - larryratcliff - 09-19-2009
(09-18-2009, 11:51 PM)Rudolf_DieselQuote:Thanks for the video, now we know to avoid Tony Wildman when looking for a tuner!
I have a chip from Tony...He is good people. When he burns a chip for you he bases the tunes on the info you give him.
I have injectors that can flow 95% more fuel than stock at the extreme setting.
My tunes:
Stock setting - no smoke; Econo setting (40 H.P.) - no smoke; Tow setting (80 H.P.) - a little haze; Extreme setting (120 H.p.) some smoke until boost catches up with fuel, could be lag from IC.
On the extreme setting I will blow some black smoke until the boost comes on , but that could be from lag due to IC - a VNT could help with that.
For $350 bucks he will burn four modes and if you want changes he will do it for free as many times as you want.
I normally don't run extreme because I don't like blowing smoke and it is only when you romp on it, just like running without an ALDA.
I have beat many a camaro, mustang and built ricers on the streets only to see a gaping mouth at the fact that they were beat by a 8500# dually.
If the info is not correctly given to Tony, then his tunes mat not be right for the vehicle - also the driver has alot to do with it!
Just my $.02, now back to the 617!
I think there was a high degree of sarcasm in both of those responses. I could not intelligibly comment on the quality of a tune based on a single you tube video.
I guess my response was trying to be equally as ridiculous as someone implying that is what the ford power stroke looks like running down the road... If you notice my "stock power strokes dont smoke like that" comment. I have actually been a huge fan... and if ford would have built that f150 4.0 tdi I would be planning that purchase instead of figuring out how to build my own efficient truck... Oh well as you said back to the OM617 ...
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - winmutt - 09-19-2009
THe VW engins are crossflow right?
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - Jdmills - 09-19-2009
so for my clarity of understanding can some one tell me if 'black smoke' is unburned fuel, that did nothing while in the combustion chamber, or is it fuel that has burned but in a less than clean manor which did contribute to the combustion process, but COULD have contributed more so, if there was more oxygen present?
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - Rudolf_Diesel - 09-19-2009
Quote:...or is it fuel that has burned but in a less than clean manor which did contribute to the combustion process, but COULD have contributed more so, if there was more oxygen present?
Have you ever used an oxy-acetylene torch? You get a yellow flame and soot with no oxygen, add oxygen and you get a blue flame and complete combustion.
Gale Banks uses nitrous to keep his diesel drag trucks from smoking at he local drag strip - they are usually there on Thursday nights (Irwindale)
So to answer your question the air and fuel have to be at the correct ratio for a comlete burn or you get smoke = soot, incomplete burned diesel.
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - larryratcliff - 09-19-2009
(09-19-2009, 06:39 AM)winmutt THe VW engins are crossflow right?
Yes
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - Jdmills - 09-19-2009
(09-19-2009, 08:56 AM)Rudolf_DieselQuote:...or is it fuel that has burned but in a less than clean manor which did contribute to the combustion process, but COULD have contributed more so, if there was more oxygen present?
Have you ever used an oxy-acetylene torch? You get a yellow flame and soot with no oxygen, add oxygen and you get a blue flame and complete combustion.
Gale Banks uses nitrous to keep his diesel drag trucks from smoking at he local drag strip - they are usually there on Thursday nights (Irwindale)
So to answer your question the air and fuel have to be at the correct ratio for a comlete burn or you get smoke = soot, incomplete burned diesel.
so any time we have soot out the tail pipe, in theory, we have more fuel than we can burn for some reason.. usually limited by lack of oxygen, or maybe an injection timing issue?
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - tomnik - 09-20-2009
or black smoke is because the burning fuel has not enough time to burn completely. When the exhaust valve opens "too early" - end of injection is too late in relation to the cam.
This is a clear result of maxing out an IP beyond the sweet spot.
Additional fuel means increasing the duration of injection (the displacement of the plunger is fix, the end of injection is delayed).
More air i.e. from a VTG helps but at the end of the day larger elements is the correct way to go.
Tom
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - Jdmills - 09-20-2009
(09-20-2009, 02:18 AM)tomnik or black smoke is because the burning fuel has not enough time to burn completely. When the exhaust valve opens "too early" - end of injection is too late in relation to the cam.
This is a clear result of maxing out an IP beyond the sweet spot.
Additional fuel means increasing the duration of injection (the displacement of the plunger is fix, the end of injection is delayed).
More air i.e. from a VTG helps but at the end of the day larger elements is the correct way to go.
Tom
Got it, Thank You.
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - larryratcliff - 10-24-2009
well just threw in the towel today with mixed emotions ... I bought a f250 power stroke extended cab 4x to do my towing ... this with my jetta tdi are the perfect partners.
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - winmutt - 10-27-2009
Blasphemy
RE: trying to get an understanding of the 617 engine - George3soccer - 10-27-2009
enought said my friend, now just a om diesel and you are set.