Best Gearbox - Printable Version

Best Gearbox - Printable Version

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Best Gearbox - Frank606 - 10-18-2015

Which of these manual gearboxes is best to use for a 606 super build 500hp
Dogleg Getrag 16v cossy 275z
Or 717/433 from a 300E need some guidance
Thanks

RE: Best Gearbox - benzguy - 10-18-2015

The dogleg 717404 is the strongest transmission and it takes a single mass flywheel the 717433 takes a dual mass flywheel

RE: Best Gearbox - Frank606 - 10-19-2015

Thank you you've put my mind to rest

RE: Best Gearbox - HyperUniverse - 10-30-2015

(10-18-2015, 06:50 PM)benzguy The dogleg 717404 is the strongest transmission and it takes a single mass flywheel the 717433 takes a dual mass flywheel

Make sure you match the gearbox with the right flywheel, otherwise ..... listen to my horror story:

I have an OM606.962 with a dogleg box.
I don't know what code my box has got, I thought it is a 717.450, because that's what I've read on internet.
Now I hear it could be a 717.433.

The fact is my car is jerking.
Jerking when accelerating.
Jerking when driving steady at a certain range of RPMs.

And this is happening because I've got a lightweight flywheel.

To get rid of the jerking I need a dual mass flywheel, to dampen the power produced by the pistons.

Another bad thing is that having no inertial mass from a heavy flywheel, when the engine is cold and you take it out of a gear, the engine is stalling.
The rotational speed drops so much so fast that the engine stops.

You should see how nice it is when is happening to you in the middle of an intersection.

To avoid that you need to learn to "play" with the acceleration pedal while is in neutral, just to let it spin down at a slower pace, then is OK to leave it idle, it won't stall anymore.

Oh, one more bad thing......
Because my dogleg box has a short input shaft (to be used with a dual mass flywheel), but in fact I've got a lightweight flywheel in the car, there is no support to the input shaft.
Do you know what that means?
I'll tell you what's going on in my car:
Every time you change a gear you get tremors.
Especially when you go from a standstill.

You have to keep the clutch slipping so much and for so long, to avoid, or just to attenuate these tremors
(tremors are different from jerking).

My car is so bad, my wife refused to drive since I've bought it.
Who modified my car was an idiot,
And I was a bigger idiot to buy it......(it was a nice looking car, and I've learnt how to drive it right there on the spot when testing it).

But now I have decided to replace the gearbox for a 6 speed 717.647, and I'll get a new solid dual mass flywheel too.

Anyway I don't use a lot of power, I'm not a race driver........

In a nutshell, yes you can install a dogleg box, but make sure you get a solid dual mass flywheel with a support for the input shaft.

Otherwise you might get my gremlins too.

Regards

RE: Best Gearbox - raysorenson - 10-30-2015

Don't drive it with the input shaft unsupported with a pilot bearing. It will eat your front bearing quickly and destroy the trans.

As for the stalling, I have a 6kg FW (LIGHT) and I don't have the stalling problem. This might be a pump problem.

If you just installed a dual mass, all of your and your wife's other complaints would disappear.

RE: Best Gearbox - Frank606 - 10-30-2015

Thanks for the replys my tranny is the one with the long output shaft 26 splines designed for a solid mass fly wheel not sure about the pilot bearing for this set up
Correct me if I'm wrong
Thanks

RE: Best Gearbox - Druk - 10-30-2015

(10-30-2015, 04:27 PM)Frank606 Thanks for the replys my tranny is the one with the long output shaft 26 splines designed for a solid mass fly wheel not sure about the pilot bearing for this set up
Correct me if I'm wrong
Thanks

You are correct. The pilot bearing for this is pressed into the crankshaft end and not supported by the flywheel as is the dual-mass version.

.

RE: Best Gearbox - Frank606 - 10-31-2015

Oh I See now
Where would I get this crankshaft bearing from
So much to think about on these superbuilds
Thanks Guys

RE: Best Gearbox - Druk - 10-31-2015

(10-31-2015, 06:04 AM)Frank606 Oh I See now
Where would I get this crankshaft bearing from
So much to think about on these superbuilds
Thanks Guys

Using an E280 M104 engine as a test the EPC shows the part to be A005 981 51 25. This from Mercedes.

Whether that's correct for your application...who knows? The pleasure of doing modifications Big Grin

.

You could measure the dia of the gearbox spigot and the housing in the crank end and give those to your local bearing dealer.
It will be a standard sized bearing as like as not.

RE: Best Gearbox - Frank606 - 10-31-2015

Great info
Thank you guys

RE: Best Gearbox - capflya - 11-01-2015

If you're going for 500HP I don't think a mercedes box will hold up long to the torque you would be producin... Might want to PM F.R.A.S on here and see if he can set you up with a stronger transmission and a good clutch/flywheel setup.

The dogleg box will hold up for a while but several other people have had them blow up (not literally but they break).

RE: Best Gearbox - MFSuper90 - 11-01-2015

I haven't had personal experience, but like capflya said everyone build that I have read that goes over 300hp will demolish a merc trans. Most move to a 6speed bmw box.

RE: Best Gearbox - F.R.A.S - 11-03-2015

Ohhh my god. Driving around with an unsupported input shaft Sad

Man, like you say. Who ever built that car didn't play with LEGO as a kid.

Your problems are pump related and related to the hanging input shaft. Get the pump fixed and swap trans. A big old heavy FW doesn't help with anything except to get a sluggish engine.

But to answer your qustion: BEST GEARBOX

Best gearbox around is the ZF GS6-53DZ if you just have the gear fully engaged I can bet you that it will stand 2500hp. It's a monster for sure.

RE: Best Gearbox - hents99 - 11-03-2015

What do you think about adapter flange for BMW box instead of welding? What about clearance if flange is approx 25-30mm thick?
I have never tried BMW box onto MB block.

I have GM, Audi and BMW gearbox flange drawings (precision 0.00x mm). I wonder to make drawing for MB gearbox/block flange.

BMW+Audi. Connected by center points. Angle need to be set.
[Image: 99496-audibmw.JPG]

RE: Best Gearbox - F.R.A.S - 11-03-2015

I generally don't approve with adapter plates at all. I have not yet to see one that actually works.

There are a couple of problems right from the get go. Input shaft is very short on the BMW trans so the flywheel would need to be spaced out 40mm or more with an adapter plate in between. So then you don't have a starter any more because that will no longer be able to reach the starter ring on the FW. You will also need a dual mass FW type of construction with the pilot bearing in the FW.

It's doable with a custom kit that includes a custom FW with a custom clutch setup and so on. But why spend those money when you can just weld a gearbox and have everything bolt on?

I understand the thought though but it's more hustle then the current way of doing stuff.

What people SHOULD buy is a custom FW from you Hents99 for the Tilton or QuarterMaster twin or tripple disc clutch setup that is made for the short input shaft Mercedes gearboxes like the 6spd from 270cdi. That would be a great piece of kit and both you and the customers would be happy about it.

My 5-cents

RE: Best Gearbox - hents99 - 11-03-2015

I wonder to produce lightweight flywheels for 240mm SRE pressure plate. For short and long shaft boxes.
People afraid multi disc clutches Smile

RE: Best Gearbox - F.R.A.S - 11-03-2015

(11-03-2015, 08:06 AM)hents99 I wonder to produce lightweight flywheels for 240mm SRE pressure plate. For short and long shaft boxes.
People afraid multi disc clutches

If you could do your design on a lightweight FW in two versions, one for long shaft and one for short and balanced and done for the Sachs 765 pressure plate that would be a winner mate.

Maybe even one for the 618 pressure plate if you like to do more models for the guys wanting a solid 228mm clutch instead of the 240mm.

PROBLEM IS that there are a couple of different thicknesses on clutches. We can speak about this in a PM or so but the customer has to specify to you what clutch they are gonna use. Otherwise some guys will have a problem with the clamping force and therefore get a slipping clutch.

We'll sort something out mate. And to all of you out there: Hents99 is a really good guy when it comes to flywheels, don't hesitate to speak to him about your setup.

RE: Best Gearbox - raysorenson - 11-07-2015

This is the perfect place to ask what this is for... I don't see an adapter plate on the site and if you're doing cut and weld it's not necessary, so why make it?

http://www.dli-teknik.se/index.php?section=products&subsection=7&cat=32&s1cat=288&showprod=14612&lang=en

[Image: 20140410_072438.jpg]

RE: Best Gearbox - F.R.A.S - 11-09-2015

I would like to but I can't respond to this. I'm sort of bias...

RE: Best Gearbox - Matej - 11-15-2015

It would be so nice if there were strengthened gear sets available for the Mercedes transmissions, like there are for Hondas and Nissans and various other makes. Does anyone have connections at a place that could produce them?
I love how small and light the Mercedes manual boxes are. Too bad they are so weak.

RE: Best Gearbox - EmJay - 11-15-2015

Adaptor plates do work, how else do people put our diesels into Jeeps and such? A buddy made one out of 1/4" aluminum for his T-III Mazda trans behind a OM617