Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets.

Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - Printable Version

+- STD (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std)
+-- Forum: Tuning (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Engine (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Thread: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. (/showthread.php?tid=6837)

Pages: 1 2 3

Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - -Mackan- - 10-25-2015

Hi, I was thinking maby we could ad some pictures and info in this thread, of the procedure of securing these sprockets. At least I would like some more info about how this is done properly Smile

I have collected some pictures during my time on the board and I will ad them aswell, I hope the owner of the pictures won't mind. Angel

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - -Mackan- - 10-25-2015

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - -Mackan- - 10-25-2015

At least on the om606 there is very little space on either side of camshaft gear. It won't allow for the head of a bolt securing the sprocket as it will hit the chainrail. What other method is good enough?

Maby install a bolt and grind the bolthead of? Or use a bolt with internal hex (Allen) fitting?

Please come with inputs!

/Markus

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - Tito - 10-25-2015

I ground the head of the bolts and used loctite to keep the threads secured. I installed 3 bolts at 120 degrees each.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - -Mackan- - 10-25-2015

(10-25-2015, 02:54 PM)Tito I ground the head of the bolts and used loctite to keep the threads secured. I installed 3 bolts at 120 degrees each.

Alright that seems like the way to do it! Did you use M6 or M5 bolt? Any pictures from the surgery? Wink

And also did you do anything with the crank pulley? Would be good to know how far to drill and so on.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - Tito - 10-25-2015

I used m6 bolts. Unfortunately I didn't shoot any pictures.... But it's basically the same as the pictures here above. I didn't do anything to the crank pulley.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - EDH_Performance - 10-25-2015

The top pictures is from my engine, the first picture is with the bolt head...Did not work, so used a m6 screw without a head.

The crank you can drill a 6mm hole like i did, but not use that kind of pin! Machine a solid pin of good quality and put in there Smile

You need to drill all the way in to the end of the chainsprocket. You do this when the sprocket and pulley is on the crank, the drillbit will guide itself in the gap between crank and pulley

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - barrote - 10-26-2015

Hello ,
1st as a question , the procedure for intake CamShaft sprocket i understand , despite i really dought it ever slips, even with massive valve springs
2nd , what are u guys ataching to crank puley that u fear the original pin can´t handle, as far as i know 150N tight force is enough to hold that in place, expecially with that type of thread 22/.75 or something is huge tight forge...

in industrial complexes building people use to secure puleys in electrical engines and usually the procedure is to use 3 threaded pins thighting against a helicoidal surface, well this pins are for sale in many configurantions , and they are 8.8 or 10.2 spec M6/M8 whatever is a threaded bolt with an internal exagon or torx no nut nothing ...that´s what we want.
regards

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - -Mackan- - 10-26-2015

(10-25-2015, 05:54 PM)EDH_Performance The top pictures is from my engine, the first picture is with the bolt head...Did not work, so used a m6 screw without a head.

The crank you can drill a 6mm hole like i did, but not use that kind of pin! Machine a solid pin of good quality and put in there
You need to drill all the way in to the end of the chainsprocket. You do this when the sprocket and pulley is on the crank, the drillbit will guide itself in the gap between crank and pulley

Okey, thanks for your reply! Smile

and also for letting me/us using ur pictures as reference! Big Grin

So the total drilling distance in the crank is like 20-30mm? Good to know to not use that kind of pin!

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - -Mackan- - 10-26-2015

(10-26-2015, 02:33 AM)barrote Hello ,
1st as a question , the procedure for intake CamShaft sprocket i understand , despite i really dought it ever slips, even with massive valve springs
2nd , what are u guys ataching to crank puley that u fear the original pin can´t handle, as far as i know 150N tight force is enough to hold that in place, expecially with that type of thread 22/.75 or something is huge tight forge...

in industrial complexes building people use to secure puleys in electrical engines and usually the procedure is to use 3 threaded pins thighting against a helicoidal surface, well this pins are for sale in many configurantions , and they are 8.8 or 10.2 spec M6/M8 whatever is a threaded bolt with an internal exagon or torx no nut nothing ...that´s what we want.
regards

So a bolt with 8.8 or 10.2 spec should be perfect for the crank pulley and the chainsprocket on the crank aswell?

I don't know if mine is going to slip but it seem to be a good idea to drills this with the engine still outside of the enginebay, but I don't wanna damage anything that's why I have all these quastions. So thanks for your reply! Smile

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - barrote - 10-26-2015

i´m going to do the same anyway, i will have 1.5, and 2mm bigguer valves and a 800N and 600N springs ,
i just leave the crank puley alone , in my build i´m not increasing the charge, actually i´m planing to aleviate the charge , running without fan and A/C
yes a M6 8.8 bolt glued with lock tite will do the job fine, ....

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - Hario' - 10-26-2015

You man a grub screw.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=m6+grubscrew&biw=1440&bih=775&site=webhp&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0CAgQ_AUoA2oVChMI7bX974LgyAIV0YYaCh1TmAXq

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - barrote - 10-26-2015

thats exactly what i was talking about...
i supose u dont want to know the name in my language Wink

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - Max - 10-26-2015

Hi,

this is how i did it:

Greets

Max

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - whipplem104 - 11-03-2015

I wanted to ask does anyone have a picture of the spun gear on the camshaft. I have searched and cannot find a picture. And what were the details of that engine that had the problem. Stock. Modified? high revs? Different valve springs? Just want to know why this is happening.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - Hario' - 11-03-2015

(11-03-2015, 01:25 PM)whipplem104 I wanted to ask does anyone have a picture of the spun gear on the camshaft. I have searched and cannot find a picture. And what were the details of that engine that had the problem. Stock. Modified? high revs? Different valve springs? Just want to know why this is happening.

Apparently they all do it, and stiffer springs or general agresive driving agrevates it, and then it looses timing. No exp myself though.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - whipplem104 - 11-03-2015

Well. I have 3 om606 engines at my shop and none of them have moved. Honestly this forum is the only place I have ever heard of it before. I have been working on Mercedes for 17 yrs and have had more than a few open. Not as many as in Europe that is for sure but non the less I think I would have heard of it altleast. Or seen a picture from someone that has this problem. I searched on here and all I can find is people saying to pin the thing. Which is not a terrible idea at all but I want to see one that spun. It is almost like a folk legend that everyone just says it happened but no one can say who it happened to or what was going on when it happened. And no one was there when it happened.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - AlanMcR - 11-03-2015

Same here. I've got two of them at 240k and 260K miles. No sign of movement.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - EvoPeter - 11-04-2015

(10-26-2015, 04:13 AM)barrote i´m going to do the same anyway, i will have 1.5, and 2mm bigguer valves and a 800N and 600N springs ,
i just leave the crank puley alone , in my build i´m not increasing the charge, actually i´m planing to aleviate the charge , running without fan and A/C
yes a M6 8.8 bolt glued with lock tite will do the job fine, ....

About securing the crank pulley is good because its looks like my pulley is 30 degrees off so i suspect the woodruff key it sheared. But my valve timing is ok. Going to service my engine now and secure the pulley better and install new valve springs so i can rise my rev limit from 6500 to 7000 with my new pump.

About the cams. The intake do slipp. I secured mine.

About vacuum pump and high revs. Revving past 6000rpm is not good for the pump. Over 6000rpm you loose vacuum and pumps starts breaking down slowly. Atleast the newer modell of the pump. But i suspect its even worse with the old style. Im now installing a electric vacuum pump.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - whipplem104 - 11-04-2015

I know lots of people here say it slips. But I am asking for details on the cars that have had this problem and a picture so I can see it for myself. It seems you are running high rpms. Did yours slip? How did you move it back before you pinned it?
What I am trying to determine is why. High revs and floating valves and the cam is smacking the pucks and it is being beaten to spin or high valve spring pressures causing to much load on the cam.
How long and how hard was it driven before this was noticed. Lots of drifting with the engine at high rpms sustained.

As far as you crank pulley there is no reason for it to spin unless you have a supercharger or something else with high load. Or the bolt was not tighten or it was installed wrong in the 1st place.
Also how are you determining your cam timing is correct if the crank pulley has moved?

Good to know about the vacuum pump. I had not even thought of that issue.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - Hario' - 11-04-2015

(11-04-2015, 08:30 AM)whipplem104 I know lots of people here say it slips. But I am asking for details on the cars that have had this problem and a picture so I can see it for myself. It seems you are running high rpms. Did yours slip? How did you move it back before you pinned it?
What I am trying to determine is why. High revs and floating valves and the cam is smacking the pucks and it is being beaten to spin or high valve spring pressures causing to much load on the cam.
How long and how hard was it driven before this was noticed. Lots of drifting with the engine at high rpms sustained.

As far as you crank pulley there is no reason for it to spin unless you have a supercharger or something else with high load. Or the bolt was not tighten or it was installed wrong in the 1st place.
Also how are you determining your cam timing is correct if the crank pulley has moved?

Good to know about the vacuum pump. I had not even thought of that issue.

Interesting, I've seen more than one crank pulley issue on build threads here, talking about the cam chain pulley not the fan belt pulley. In the pictures it looked like the woodruff key was undersized or weak perhaps.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - EvoPeter - 11-04-2015

(11-04-2015, 08:30 AM)whipplem104 I know lots of people here say it slips. But I am asking for details on the cars that have had this problem and a picture so I can see it for myself. It seems you are running high rpms. Did yours slip? How did you move it back before you pinned it?
What I am trying to determine is why. High revs and floating valves and the cam is smacking the pucks and it is being beaten to spin or high valve spring pressures causing to much load on the cam.
How long and how hard was it driven before this was noticed. Lots of drifting with the engine at high rpms sustained.

As far as you crank pulley there is no reason for it to spin unless you have a supercharger or something else with high load. Or the bolt was not tighten or it was installed wrong in the 1st place.
Also how are you determining your cam timing is correct if the crank pulley has moved?

Good to know about the vacuum pump. I had not even thought of that issue.

F.R.A.S. have posted info on this or the swedish forum on this problems with the cams on standard engines.

I am not 100 sure that the woodruff key is broken but my engine runed fine but when i tryed to zero the pump for removal my pulley was not lining up with the pump. Heard that others had same problem. Pulley is never removed. Engine rev limit this summer was 6500rpm with a lot of beating on the redline with drifting and clutch break into corners. But the original woodruff key is very tiny and others with om606 with high rev and power have had problems with it.

I tought it was bullocks but soon i will find out. I even picked up some new springpins im going to drill in when rebuilding the engine this winter.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - whipplem104 - 11-04-2015

The woodruff key is really just for alignment. The actual bolt force clamping the pulley and gear to the front of the crank is what holds it. Lots of people pin crank pulleys on big supercharger engines because they spin. But that is a massive load in comparison to stock water pumps and alternators etc.
Normally if a basically stock setup spins it was not tq properly or the bolt needed to be replaced because it was a one time use stretch bolt.
Besides all this stuff is the same as the gas engines and I have a supercharged m104 and rev to 7200 rpm and have for over a decade and never had an issue with the crank pulley. It is a different pulley but how it goes on the crank is the same.
One possibility is that by revving the engine really high that the dampener is not doing its job and it is getting crank harmonics that could possibly cause this but normally that is an issue were the crank just snaps off.
My point is that there is no significant load on the belt system to put enough force on the pulley to spin it.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - Duncansport - 11-04-2015

I believe this is an issue with other high performance diesels like the duramax and power stroke, people have reported breaking keys or damaging the crankshaft. I believe that harmonics at high RPM is the issue. I think that a fluid damper would be a wise investment for future builds.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - whipplem104 - 11-04-2015

Ok, So that is good info. I agree a fluid dampener is probably needed for these cases. What is scary is that if the harmonics are that bad it is beating on the main journals as well. Pinning the pulley may just be a band aid for a bigger issue.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - tgg416 - 11-08-2015

On my OM606a, with pump from dieselmeken and a hx30/35 in a G-wagen the crankpulley was spinning and breaking the woodruff key. Hp is maybe around 300 and quit good torque.
The crank pulley had resently been off and we installed the pully with corect torque and the center bolt with strong loctite after cleaning treads.
All done correct after the book.
This also happend twice on a similar engine so I will NEVER install the pulley or gear on the cam again without extra security.

I have pictures of this but the size is to big to post here.

So why not just secure it insted of taking a chance ????

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - barrote - 11-08-2015

Hello , i do belive that , since what holds the crank timing sprocket and the harminic damper is that 27mm bolt, wich has a huge tight force, the woodroof key (stock) does not hold nothing of respect, what i belive to be miraculous is the thing sliping and people speak of that like nothing happened, when i see that thing slipping the timing is gone and colisions within the engine will happen.
as somebody said previously , we are never secure on that , i´ll secure mine too despite i can see no reason to do it.
BTW it was interesting to see the pictures
regards

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - Max - 11-08-2015

Here are some Pics from the User Muuris posted in my 605 Thread.

Damaged Crank:

[Image: stopscrew1.jpg]

Damgad 605 Damper:

[Image: stopscrew2.jpg]

Secured:

Greets Max

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - -Mackan- - 11-09-2015

Does any one know how far to drill when securing the crank?

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - Matej - 11-09-2015

So this happened to regular engines, not some built 700+hp motors?
I have never even heard of this issue until now. I could see it happening with a big supercharger, but I do not understand why it would happen on near-stock motors. Especially since almost every other engine uses the same securing method, not to mention many engines rely on the woodruff key alone.
Did one of the accessories seize up, perhaps? How do things look inside and behind the front main seal? Could the pulley come in contact with something in the area, especially on a motor with worn bearings?

Though I would not be surprised if the problem turned out to be that some of the woodruff keys are made out of too soft of a metal, thus slowly deforming and eventually setting off the whole reaction into motion. Even if the pulley came loose, it would have never spun like in the pictures above if the woodruff key was stronger. The only reason there seems to be damage to the crank is due to the remnants from the key and the friction of the pulley spinning, otherwise it would have been fine. There is no way that regular driven accessories should exert enough resistance to shear a normal woodruff key.

Who can make some fancy forged high strength woodruff keys? Smile

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - Matej - 11-09-2015

As for the cam sprocket, how stupid would it be to just weld it to the cam? I know the heat could weaken the metal, but is there a way to do it safely? I do not know anything about welding.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - barrote - 11-10-2015

Hello fine people , that nut is a 125/1 thread i belive , being a 20mm bolt tight with 200N(20kg meter) and another 90º i seriously dought it will slip... ever slip...
anyway what i think happened to those was tight release, somebody did not tight it right and it released, and broke , only someone who has not seen the engine inside may belive that thing happen just like that.
behind that is the timing sprocket , if the pulley moves the sprocket is free to move too, if it does , u can pray the gods.....

welding , no man u can´t weld that thing , for several reasons , being one is that metal distorts when subject to extreme heat , and welding is extreme/melting heat.

BTW u cant secure the puley the same way as the cam´s , of course u can secure like that but the 20kg bolt need to be thight before.

i would bet on a mass woodroof key, something made if stainless stell or similar, stailess stell is the best cause it has bending properties, wont crack/break under stress.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - EvoPeter - 11-16-2015

I removed my pulley now and i can tell that my -97 engine had an updated woodruff key compared to a om606 N/A i had laying around. Mine was not broken.

On the early make om606 N/A i have as a spareparts engine the woodruff was only securing the damper pulley and was very tiny. On my late om605 the woodruff key was massive. Both wider and longer and the same woodruff secured the chain sprockets also.

So i suspect that Mercedes themselves had problems with it and updated the woodruff on later engines or that the turbo engine had a more massive style woodruff.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - m1tch - 11-17-2015

At what sort of point should you be doing this mod? Is it only for those cars that are running higher than stock RPMs?

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - Hario' - 11-17-2015

(11-17-2015, 02:44 AM)m1tch At what sort of point should you be doing this mod? Is it only for those cars that are running higher than stock RPMs?

Sounds like there is a changeover point where they got updates as per EvoPeter's post above. Sounds like when the turbo engine came into production actually?

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - m1tch - 11-18-2015

(11-17-2015, 11:01 AM)Hario
(11-17-2015, 02:44 AM)m1tch At what sort of point should you be doing this mod? Is it only for those cars that are running higher than stock RPMs?

Sounds like there is a changeover point where they got updates as per EvoPeter's post above. Sounds like when the turbo engine came into production actually?

I will try and check mine, although its quite a bit of work to even get to the sprockets as I would have to take the inlet manifold off as well as all of the injector hard lines plus get new rocker cover gaskets - hopefully mine is ok at only 237k miles.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - whipplem104 - 11-18-2015

So one picture of a crank pulley spun. Which has a round pin in the crank instead of the correct key. Still no pictures of a cam sprocket. This is looking a lot like folk lore.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - barrote - 11-18-2015

u´ll see more ,
judging by the way things are going .... at least the one above fixed with the securing bolts will slip, the timing sprocket will....
not that i´m eaguer to see that , but preventing the correct contact that a bolt wich should be tight with 200N and 90º would do , i´ll foresee future troubles Wink

regards

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - EvoPeter - 11-19-2015

(11-18-2015, 09:15 AM)whipplem104 So one picture of a crank pulley spun. Which has a round pin in the crank instead of the correct key. Still no pictures of a cam sprocket. This is looking a lot like folk lore.

Talk to this guy in the thread i linked below. In Post #38. F.R.A.S is his name.

http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/showthread.php?tid=3630&highlight=camshaft

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - EvoPeter - 11-19-2015

Another thread here about intake cam that spun.

Post #207
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/showthread.php?tid=4390&page=5

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - whipplem104 - 11-19-2015

Still no pictures. Right now I could just as easily say that they all do not do it and in fact I am going to say that they all do not. How is this being measured. With a dial indicator on the cam lobe? How much do they spin? How many degrees? Any information at all about how the car was being used? Any thing at all other than a couple people saying it happened. Because in this thread so far there are more people saying that they have never seen it before or heard of this issue.
I believe it is possible but how and why.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - barrote - 11-19-2015

i support your idea of snake fat,
The camshaft may spun , i seriously doubht .... i know of some gears in the gearbox glued the same way and they dont spun at all.
The harmonic damper... no way it it spuns the engine goes bananas... no one is talking about damaged engine only it slips , well ....
snake fat is comming to town... or not
regards

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - EvoPeter - 11-20-2015

(11-19-2015, 04:23 PM)barrote i support your idea of snake fat,
The camshaft may spun , i seriously doubht .... i know of some gears in the gearbox glued the same way and they dont spun at all.
The harmonic damper... no way it it spuns the engine goes bananas... no one is talking about damaged engine only it slips , well ....
snake fat is comming to town... or not
regards

Well, maybe the future will tell us more. Before that its up to each builder to make their own decision.

I rather be safe then sorry. It took me some minutes to secure the camsprocket when i had the cam out.

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - barrote - 11-20-2015

Completely agree with u,
what i´m against is, people giving bad tip to others ,
me too i´m securing mine, but i have a lot of knowledge about mechanics, and that tells me that a 200N nut plus 90º can´t be messed with. wooddruf keys very often are only for alignment, not for securing anithing , when they are tough things are more likely a preventive measure.
so cut a piece of Hss and drop it there, hss wont be force cut.

regards

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - barrote - 12-15-2015

[quote pid='77267' dateline='1448019941']
Thats how i did mine, the other one will have 5 bolts instead of 3 , pictures of that later on ... Wink

[/quote]

RE: Pictures and info about securing the cam and crank sprockets. - whipplem104 - 03-30-2016

Ok, so I want to add to this from personal experience. THe crank pulley spun on my project car in about 50-100 miles of driving. Well all pretty much at full throttle. Either on the dyno or at the race track. It had not been off and the bolt was still tight when I removed it. Was looking for a timing issue.
I talked to some people about dampers and it is an issue with not being able to dampen the harmonics in the crank from the additional power. Not just rpm. It is not capable of dealing with the harmonic twist in the crank. So it is whipping back and forth and the forces exceed its ability to deal with it and that transmits into rotational force that spins the pulley. THis is also capable of snapping off the crank snout and wiping put the bearings. So I am going to go down the road of getting a custom damper made. ATI or the like. ATI is about 2 months from even putting it on the table so I am looking around. Pinning the pulley just masks this problem at best and it still need to be delt with.