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+--- Thread: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... (/showthread.php?tid=6859)
Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - bicyclewrench - 11-03-2015
Drug it out of an old hippies back yard. It's a Flintstone mobile and all the passengers can help!
Got the engine started yesterday. It had sat over three years. It seems to idle smoothly and I was able to back it in the garage. I'd like to build a bench for it to run out of the vehicle in, learn to tune it and drop it in an xj or yj.
There seems to be many different view points on whether this engine can handle boost. Does anyone have firsthand knowledge of this engine being turboed and either failing or running reliably? I'd like as much torque as I can get out of this coal burner. My current thought process is to learn to adjust the MW pump in it's current form Add a Garret 2052 and air to air intercooler and tune from there. I figure worst case scenario I melt a (free) engine and I pick up one of the plethora of turbo cars floating craigslist.
I can't wrap my brain around the idea that "The most reliable engine ever" is going to fail at the first sign of boost. Mercedes design ethos seems to over build and include large margins of safety and durability. Does anybody have a guestimate on how much power the stock pump will handle? I'm gunning for about 200ftlbs and I'll take it at idle if I can get it.
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - kestreltom - 11-03-2015
Looks like that "gift" car is going to get expensive fast...
In vintage Mbz parlance, the 300td is the "estate" wagon, and the 300dt is the sedan. Do you have the wagon?
Unless your car is a grey market version, it most likely already has a turbo on it. Did you look under the hood?
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - bicyclewrench - 11-03-2015
Yep it's the wagon. I'd love to have found a turbo on that thing. I assume it would be located somewhere in the vicinity of the intake and exhaust manifold. I certainly looked. There is also no badging on the car relating to "turbo".
I plan on doing much of the fabrication myself. This is easily as much about the doing and learning as the finished product. I've never built a header but I've built a bicycle frame.....
Garret has a neat ap called the "Boost Advisor". Plugging in the requisite specs with a HP goal of 150 spits out 205lbs of torque at 4.5 psi of boost. One of the turbos they have on the recommended list is a Gt2252.
http://www.speedyracer.com/GT2252-Turbo-for-98-Nissan-Trade-3-0L-D-BD30TI-452187-5006S-14411-69T000-?gclid=Cj0KEQiA0-GxBRDWsePx0pPtp4sBEiQACuTLNvghSgLh4l---jGp_TeNPinScXbW7Lpndpbg_NoXr3UaAvay8P8HAQ
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - kestreltom - 11-03-2015
(11-03-2015, 12:31 PM)bicyclewrench Yep it's the wagon. I'd love to have found a turbo on that thing. I assume it would be located somewhere in the vicinity of the intake and exhaust manifold. I certainly looked. There is also no badging on the car relating to "turbo".
OK, so no turbo. If what you have is the OM617 (the normally aspirated version), then that is a good thing too. The torque & hp are lower than the OM617a, but they are valued for their simplicity & reliability..
The OM617a is a completely different beast. Bolting a turbo onto an om617 will not an "a" make.
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - CRD4x4 - 11-03-2015
I'm sorry I don't haver the 1st hand knowledge your looking for but if I wanted more torque out of the motor you have I'd simply supercharge it.
You should be able to find an Eaton M90 from the GM 3.6 V6 for under $100 and fab up a mounting system to catch your belt. There's plenty of aftermarket for cheap pulleys to increase or decrease the rpms of the supercharger.
If you're gonna look I'd hold out for a Ford Thunderbird Supercoupe charger with associated hard pipes & cooler since they're configured better imho.
If you're looking for bolt on turbo parts PM me
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - bicyclewrench - 11-03-2015
Not trying to build an "A". Not trying to be argumentative. I'm already aware the two engines are fundamentally different. I'm aware that the standard answer is "you can't do that". Is your view point based on first hand knowledge? I only ask because anything else is repeating "what they say". MANY engines are running turbos that were not originally engineered for them. I have a FREE engine. I'm willing to melt it 'cause SCIENCE! In the process we might learn something. We know that the stock pump is able to be adjusted for more fuel. The question to me seems to be how much more. I'm not expecting huge changes. I'm just trying to find the limits of what's possible with this engine.
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - bicyclewrench - 11-03-2015
(11-03-2015, 05:19 PM)CRD4x4 I'm sorry I don't haver the 1st hand knowledge your looking for but if I wanted more torque out of the motor you have I'd simply supercharge it.
You should be able to find an Eaton M90 from the GM 3.6 V6 for under $100 and fab up a mounting system to catch your belt. There's plenty of aftermarket for cheap pulleys to increase or decrease the rpms of the supercharger.
If you're gonna look I'd hold out for a Ford Thunderbird Supercoupe charger with associated hard pipes & cooler since they're configured better imho.
If you're looking for bolt on turbo parts PM me
Not something I've researched yet. I'll give it some time tonight, thanks!
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - mo1971fordcrew - 11-03-2015
I turboed my w115 617 with a stock kkk 617a turbo. It has since been sold, but I had no issues with it. It was set at 10psi
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - bicyclewrench - 11-04-2015
(11-03-2015, 11:06 PM)mo1971fordcrew I turboed my w115 617 with a stock kkk 617a turbo. It has since been sold, but I had no issues with it. It was set at 10psi
Awesome! Were you running on the stock pump?
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - bicyclewrench - 11-04-2015
Yep. I'm willing to melt it though that's not my goal. I figure even if I melt it, anything that gets fabbed to bolt on will move over to a om617.952. That engine will bolt on to the same adapter plate. This way I learn the ins and outs of tuning a turbo-ed diesel. If it hold up great if not, no biggie I head the direction most have been pointed.
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - Edian727 - 11-04-2015
id just go for it. i get sick of people saying dont turbo non turbo engines. proper advice is get some gauges watch them and see how the motor responds. you wont melt it if you watch your egt's. yes they have a weaker oiling system, weaker pistons and rods.... but that doesnt mean a whole lot. just means no 200+ hps without damage.
seen a few 240d's and na 300d's that took turbos and kept living. they sure cant make the power or abuse the 617a will but like you said everything you make for one will allow you to bolt the other in. do it, and be happy
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - MFSuper90 - 11-04-2015
We turbo NA tractor engines all the time for pullers. It's not a big deal. Go for it! If you push too much boost you might blow a head gasket, but your stock pump won't push enough fuel for that unless your turbo is way too small
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - kestreltom - 11-05-2015
Moderator / Winmutt (Sorry Bicyclewrench)
I would like to edit / fix the bad link in post #9 but I cannot scroll sideways and reach the edit button.
I tried accessing the post from my user CP in order to delete it but no go. Any help here?
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - barrote - 11-05-2015
have u tried CTRL minus
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - bicyclewrench - 11-05-2015
(11-04-2015, 09:03 PM)Edian727 proper advice is get some gauges watch them and see how the motor responds. you wont melt it if you watch your egt's.
everything you make for one will allow you to bolt the other in. do it, and be happy
Yep. And I plan on starting with the basics. Cam timing, valve adjustment etc.
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - bicyclewrench - 11-05-2015
(11-04-2015, 11:17 PM)MFSuper90 We turbo NA tractor engines all the time for pullers. It's not a big deal. Go for it! If you push too much boost you might blow a head gasket, but your stock pump won't push enough fuel for that unless your turbo is way too small
That's what I'm trying to find out. So you're saying the pump can't be adjusted for enough fuel? Is it the same pump as on the .952?
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - kestreltom - 11-05-2015
(11-05-2015, 07:06 AM)barrote have u tried CTRL minus
Yep... no joy.
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - kestreltom - 11-05-2015
(11-04-2015, 09:03 PM)Edian727 id just go for it. i get sick of people saying dont turbo non turbo engines. ...
Edian: sorry I made you sick.
Bicyclewrench: I did come off as a preachy party-pooper... sorry about that, won't happen again.
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - mo1971fordcrew - 11-05-2015
(11-04-2015, 10:31 AM)bicyclewrench(11-03-2015, 11:06 PM)mo1971fordcrew I turboed my w115 617 with a stock kkk 617a turbo. It has since been sold, but I had no issues with it. It was set at 10psi
Awesome! Were you running on the stock pump?
Yup! If I remember correctly, I removed the rack limiter which didn't seem to help that much. I probably put 20,000 miles on the car with that turbo setup, lol. Lots of highway driving at 65. Boost was always pegged at 10psi. Poor old thing with the short gearing rear end (3.73??) was screaming going that fast. I would turbo yours, but that's just me LOL
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - bicyclewrench - 11-05-2015
(11-05-2015, 12:46 PM)kestreltom Bicyclewrench: I did come off as a preachy party-pooper... sorry about that, won't happen again.
S'alright!
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - MFSuper90 - 11-05-2015
(11-05-2015, 10:41 AM)bicyclewrenchSame pump, yes. But even when professionally set they only put out 60cc or something around that. Will it be better than NA? More than you can imagine! But if you are looking for over 140-150hp, an upgraded injection pump is a must.(11-04-2015, 11:17 PM)MFSuper90 We turbo NA tractor engines all the time for pullers. It's not a big deal. Go for it! If you push too much boost you might blow a head gasket, but your stock pump won't push enough fuel for that unless your turbo is way too small
That's what I'm trying to find out. So you're saying the pump can't be adjusted for enough fuel? Is it the same pump as on the .952?
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - kestreltom - 11-05-2015
(11-05-2015, 07:24 PM)bicyclewrench(11-05-2015, 12:46 PM)kestreltom Bicyclewrench: I did come off as a preachy party-pooper... sorry about that, won't happen again.
S'alright!
Btw... there is an informative discussion regarding ideal turbos for the 617 with OEM IPs with nothing more than governor adjustments. Here is a link:
http://mercedesforum.com/forum/diesel-performance-49/forcedinductions-holset-he221-turbo-50458/
The OP goes by the username "ForcedInduction" and he has been banned here for his anti-social shenanigans, nevertheless I believe the information is good. I have upgraded my turbo to a gt2256v and it seems that all of Forced comments on it were born out in my experience. After trying the 2256 he went to a HE221W which he liked. Interesting read.
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - kestreltom - 11-05-2015
Try to clean off the side of the IP and use your phone cam to get a positive ID on it. If you have an MW, then there is one set of procedures for adjusting the governor, if you have an M, then there is a different proceedure. If your td is a US model, then most likely you have an MW pump.
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - NZScott - 11-06-2015
It will almost certainly have a MW pump....many on this site are chucking turbos onto NA diesels. I have a 1980 617 I'm putting a Holset HE200WG on.
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - bicyclewrench - 11-06-2015
Yep it's an MW. I'm hoping it has as much flow as the one used on the .951?
I've got a few printouts detailing adjustment of the pump. I really want to build a test bench for the engine itself.
http://www.eastwood.com/autotwirler-engne-run-stand-red.html?fee=7&fep=51885&SRCCODE=GA220010&adpos=1o2&creative=81975492420&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CjwKEAiAvPGxBRCH3YCgpdbCtmYSJABqHRVwQA5xeyB2Xo4Z4O9FFBGcPHTeig0dFy7HqmBdHPkfYxoCpRnw_wcB
It should make adjustment and fab work much easier. It's seems it's possible to do it with 2x4's. I've got an engine stand rated to 750 but it was sketchtastic with a VW 1.8 gasser on it. At the very least I've got to pick up a new stand.
By the way, anybody need anything off this rust buggie? The interior is rough and so's the body but the glass is all good and the windows roll up and down. The hood may be salvagable. The transmission shifted. Once I'm done getting everything needed for a swap the rest is headed for scrap.
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - NZScott - 11-07-2015
It'll have the same elements, you'll just have to adjust it inside.
I need something like that too ideally
Good luck anyway. You've made me finally get around to starting my turbo conversion thread..
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - kestreltom - 11-07-2015
(11-06-2015, 07:55 PM)bicyclewrench Yep it's an MW. I'm hoping it has as much flow as the one used on the .951?
AFAIK all the MWs had 5.5 mm elements and similar cams, so max flow is theoretically the same at approx 60cc. Fueling differences are nearly all due to governors being set up differently. By maxing out your torque module you can achieve a big boost in the low to mid-range power. OM616 put out a document that I used to adjust mine and it worked very well. Here is a link if you are interested. OM616's MW governor adjustment guide , also an account of the adjustments that I made to my IP: Kestreltom's MW adjustments
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - bicyclewrench - 11-18-2015
Thanks for the info guys! Got the engine pulled Monday. (more progress would have been made except Fallout 4) It came out faster and easier than I thought! We started building a framework out of 2x4's last night. I think it's going to work out ok. Going to have to haul this carcass off soon but I have a few more things to harvest first.
Been watching XJ's YJ's and TJ's on craigslist. It's rather entertaining to see the range of junk versus price's. One running and drivable for the same price as another rusted out shell. The goal is to substitute sweat equity for money so I'm watching for that "get this thing outta my yard". Time I got.
Any thoughts on a solid service manual? Haynes and Chilton's tend to blow, though if you get both you almost have a real manual.
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - kestreltom - 11-20-2015
(11-18-2015, 02:35 PM)bicyclewrench ...It's rather entertaining to see the range of junk versus price's. One running and drivable for the same price as another rusted out shell.
Any thoughts on a solid service manual? Haynes and Chilton's tend to blow, though if you get both you almost have a real manual.
Glad you got it pulled... those 617s are heavy.
Junk vs. good stuff: Its that way with everything: presidents, roofers, cars, ... just take your time before you commit.
AFAIK, nothing beats the factory service manual. You should be able to google a copy online.
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - CRD4x4 - 11-20-2015
(11-03-2015, 05:46 PM)bicyclewrench(11-03-2015, 05:19 PM)CRD4x4 I'm sorry I don't haver the 1st hand knowledge your looking for but if I wanted more torque out of the motor you have I'd simply supercharge it.
You should be able to find an Eaton M90 from the GM 3.6 V6 for under $100 and fab up a mounting system to catch your belt. There's plenty of aftermarket for cheap pulleys to increase or decrease the rpms of the supercharger.
If you're gonna look I'd hold out for a Ford Thunderbird Supercoupe charger with associated hard pipes & cooler since they're configured better imho.
If you're looking for bolt on turbo parts PM me
Not something I've researched yet. I'll give it some time tonight, thanks!
Here's a craigslist ad for the supercharger set up I wish I had. These Ford M90s are mounted remotely from the intake manifold versus the GM M90s being mounted directly onto the intake manifold in the valley of the V6. Good price too! You dig?
https://baltimore.craigslist.org/pts/5314904061.html
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - MTUPower - 11-22-2015
(11-03-2015, 03:14 PM)kestreltom(11-03-2015, 12:31 PM)bicyclewrench Yep it's the wagon. I'd love to have found a turbo on that thing. I assume it would be located somewhere in the vicinity of the intake and exhaust manifold. I certainly looked. There is also no badging on the car relating to "turbo".
OK, so no turbo. If what you have is the OM617 (the normally aspirated version), then that is a good thing too. The torque & hp are lower than the OM617a, but they are valued for their simplicity & reliability..
The OM617a is a completely different beast. Bolting a turbo onto an om617 will not an "a" make.
617-912 is the MB nomenclature for a non turbo 617. The turbo version is named 617-95(X). The (X) is due to several slightly different versions 951, 952, etc
Yes you can put a turbo on a 912 version, but that version has differences from the turbo versions which may limit the longevity after it's altered with forced induction.
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - kestreltom - 11-22-2015
(11-22-2015, 10:38 AM)MTUPower 617-912 is the MB nomenclature for a non turbo 617. The turbo version is named 617-95(X). The (X) is due to several slightly different versions 951, 952, etc
Yes you can put a turbo on a 912 version, but that version has differences from the turbo versions which may limit the longevity after it's altered with forced induction.
Yup... some interesting upgrade items on the 617a:
sodium filled exhaust valves
different cam with longer duration on exhaust
extra cooling passages in the head
higher fuel pressure
chain driven oil pump with twice the oil volume
con rod piston squirters
different con rod bearings
etc....
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - MTUPower - 11-22-2015
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
those are most if not all the changes made internally by MB for the 912 to become a 952. thanks for the list so the OP can understand.
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - Simpler=Better - 11-22-2015
Just slap turbo manifolds on it, and run a pyrometer & intercooler. Don't let it get too hot and you'll be just fine.
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - bicyclewrench - 11-23-2015
Got the engine stand built. Yep it is a heavy b@$t@rd. I plan on running it in the stand so it needs to be secure. I have the front motor mounts sitting on uprights and the plan is to box them in so it won't move. The back of the stand is tied into the top of the rear adapter plate. Next up is sourcing and setting up gauges. Going to spend some time pulling all the rest of the goodies needed for the swap over the next week. I'm working off the list on mercedesdiesel4x4.com.
The supercharger idea seems interesting. Cursory research suggest there are plenty of them laying around on ebay and they're cheaper than the turbo I was looking at. It looks like there may even be a couple out there on the 617....
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - bicyclewrench - 11-23-2015
(11-22-2015, 09:59 PM)Simpler=Better Just slap turbo manifolds on it, and run a pyrometer & intercooler. Don't let it get too hot and you'll be just fine.
Sweet! Thanks for the linkage!
RE: Hi ya'll. Got a free 79 300td.... - Simpler=Better - 11-23-2015
The turbo 617 stuff will bolt right up, just figure out an oil drain. Other people have run bulkhead fittings in the oil pan.
Manifolds+turbo will probably be like $100-$150 at a junkyard.
Don't get me wrong, it won't last as long as a stock turbo 617, but it's not going to explode immediately either.
Exhaust temp pre-turbo is your best indicator of how bad you're wearing on it. 1200* for turbo engines, so maybe 1000*F for nonturbos with a turbo slapped on them? Just taking guesses