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+--- Thread: 240D PERFORMANCE ? Myth or What? (/showthread.php?tid=6885)
240D PERFORMANCE ? Myth or What? - Greazzer - 11-20-2015
240D / OM616 engine ...
So, bear with me ...
Assume your W123 (or similar car) weighs in the ballpark of 3,700 pounds.
The weight difference between the OM617 turbo engine vs. OM616 engine is around 250-300 pounds which is pretty significant, e.g., in the ballpark of 8% weight difference and trying to shed an extra 250-300 pounds off a car is a huge undertaking.
Take the same W123 and drive the weight down even more to around 3,000 pounds, e.g., manual tranny (auto's rob around 10-20HP), Euro Bumpers, manual windows, et cet.
With 3,000 pounds and 70-ish HP, that's in the ballpark of 42 pounds per HP.
Mod the pump a smidge to increase the fuel a little, injectors, and increase the air, differential gearing, et cet ... would this rival or surpass a very peppy OM617 Turbo?
RE: 240D PERFORMANCE ? Myth or What? - barrote - 11-20-2015
Hy mr greaser ,
U must be joking right !!! i dont know about u guys there in the states, but here i have helped a few to turn the sleeper 617 in a 50HP cylinder engine, if i had one i would turn it into a 60HP cyl engine easyly, i ´d rather waste my time in a more modern subject, able to 100HP cyl.
same for the 616 aplys the same procedure 50HP cylinder whenever u want at what time u want
. the problema is a 4 cylinder engine is a bit dificult to turn smooth .... from a certain power on will destroy itself by vibes... not worthing the assle.regards
RE: 240D PERFORMANCE ? Myth or What? - offroaddieselhu - 11-20-2015
(11-20-2015, 04:55 PM)barrote Hy mr greaser ,
U must be joking right !!! i dont know about u guys there in the states, but here i have helped a few to turn the sleeper 617 in a 50HP cylinder engine, if i had one i would turn it into a 60HP cyl engine easyly, i ´d rather waste my time in a more modern subject, able to 100HP cyl.
same for the 616 aplys the same procedure 50HP cylinder whenever u want at what time u want
regards
https://www.facebook.com/offroad.dieselhu/videos/211927775650473/?l=2265842905083672898
offroaddieselhu
RE: 240D PERFORMANCE ? Myth or What? - offroaddieselhu - 11-20-2015
(11-20-2015, 04:55 PM)barrote Hy mr greaser ,
U must be joking right !!! i dont know about u guys there in the states, but here i have helped a few to turn the sleeper 617 in a 50HP cylinder engine, if i had one i would turn it into a 60HP cyl engine easyly, i ´d rather waste my time in a more modern subject, able to 100HP cyl.
same for the 616 aplys the same procedure 50HP cylinder whenever u want at what time u want
regards
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNQL1mV6x_0
offroaddieselhu
RE: 240D PERFORMANCE ? Myth or What? - MFSuper90 - 11-20-2015
My automatic 300D made 125hp at the wheels with a hx30 and a/w intercooler, adjusted stock IP. and weighs 3600. So assume a 25hp loss through the drivetrain (just to get a round number) and we have 3600lb/150hp= 24lbs per hp.
A 240D with 70hp weighing 3000lb makes 42lbs/hp.
I consider my car a "peppy" om617. It doesn't run like a scolded dog, but will leave a bone stock 300D in the dust.
So I guess it depends on how much you gain by turbo'ing a om616?
RE: 240D PERFORMANCE ? Myth or What? - Greazzer - 11-20-2015
(11-20-2015, 05:09 PM)offroaddieselhu(11-20-2015, 04:55 PM)barrote Hy mr greaser ,
U must be joking right !!! i dont know about u guys there in the states, but here i have helped a few to turn the sleeper 617 in a 50HP cylinder engine, if i had one i would turn it into a 60HP cyl engine easyly, i ´d rather waste my time in a more modern subject, able to 100HP cyl.
same for the 616 aplys the same procedure 50HP cylinder whenever u want at what time u want
regards
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNQL1mV6x_0
offroaddieselhu
Very interesting. How difficult, or I should say, how expensive is that converted pump ????
RE: 240D PERFORMANCE ? Myth or What? - Greazzer - 11-20-2015
(11-20-2015, 05:29 PM)MFSuper90 My automatic 300D made 125hp at the wheels with a hx30 and a/w intercooler, adjusted stock IP. and weighs 3600. So assume a 25hp loss through the drivetrain (just to get a round number) and we have 3600lb/150hp= 24lbs per hp.
A 240D with 70hp weighing 3000lb makes 42lbs/hp.
I consider my car a "peppy" om617. It doesn't run like a scolded dog, but will leave a bone stock 300D in the dust.
So I guess it depends on how much you gain by turbo'ing a om616?
I am wondering what are or could be the long term parameters of the OM616 engine? It weighs significantly less then its sister engine which has 1 more cylinder. A lot of folks claim that by turbo-ing a OM616, it will melt down and explode, but I don't thing that is accurate. The folks who did in fact turbo it, claim it ran just fine and did so long term. The folks out there tweeking the OM617 have demonstrated some pretty decent gains, and let's not forget what the C-111 achieved decades ago. Trying to compare the OM617 turbo engine for example with a 1,000 HP LeMans race engine is a silly type of comparison since they are certainly different engines. I guess my ultimate question is a blend between the hypothetical and the final limits achievable. Not sure any one out there tried it, but I know a forum member OM616 was doing some work in this area.
RE: 240D PERFORMANCE ? Myth or What? - NZScott - 11-20-2015
You're probably a fan of cast iron heads like I am, but what about a OM604 swap...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGjlSrGJPz8
RE: 240D PERFORMANCE ? Myth or What? - Volker407 - 11-26-2015
(11-20-2015, 02:46 PM)Greazzer 240D / OM616 engine ...
So, bear with me ...
Assume your W123 (or similar car) weighs in the ballpark of 3,700 pounds.
The weight difference between the OM617 turbo engine vs. OM616 engine is around 250-300 pounds which is pretty significant, e.g., in the ballpark of 8% weight difference and trying to shed an extra 250-300 pounds off a car is a huge undertaking.
Take the same W123 and drive the weight down even more to around 3,000 pounds, e.g., manual tranny (auto's rob around 10-20HP), Euro Bumpers, manual windows, et cet.
With 3,000 pounds and 70-ish HP, that's in the ballpark of 42 pounds per HP.
Mod the pump a smidge to increase the fuel a little, injectors, and increase the air, differential gearing, et cet ... would this rival or surpass a very peppy OM617 Turbo?
I am sorry to say that, but I don´t think that will work.
With a few little changes an OM617A gets pretty fast out of reach for an OM616. Even with automatic gearbox and 3640pounds weight.
https://youtu.be/dWngGa0Xlo4
Gruß
Volker
RE: 240D PERFORMANCE ? Myth or What? - sassparilla_kid - 01-02-2016
If you shed some weight and add a turbo and tweak pump for a mild power increase, I'd say a 240D would be as easily drivable as a 300D. Obviously it wouldn't be as quick as a turbo 617, but depending on gearing/trans combo you wouldn't have to worry too awful much about keeping up with traffic.
Ironically my w115 240D seems quite a bit faster than my dad's w123 240D, and the w115 has like ten less hp from the factory. (Although someday soon it will hopefully be getting a turbo!)
RE: 240D PERFORMANCE ? Myth or What? - Greazzer - 01-02-2016
Shortly, I will post some video of my 240D ...
RE: 240D PERFORMANCE ? Myth or What? - Hercules - 01-28-2016
(01-28-2016, 07:39 PM)Hercules Greazzer,the answer is Yes,if proper matched turbo (1800 early toyota ) will out perform good running turbo diesel,except on take off to about 20mph. Did this a few years ago. Using standard gearing. Fuel milage 33mpg in Mts. driving hard,4 average size adults. Only exception,larger exhaust valves. No exhaust temp. gauge was ever used,but good idea.(11-20-2015, 02:46 PM)Greazzer 240D / OM616 engine ...
So, bear with me ...
Assume your W123 (or similar car) weighs in the ballpark of 3,700 pounds.
The weight difference between the OM617 turbo engine vs. OM616 engine is around 250-300 pounds which is pretty significant, e.g., in the ballpark of 8% weight difference and trying to shed an extra 250-300 pounds off a car is a huge undertaking.
Take the same W123 and drive the weight down even more to around 3,000 pounds, e.g., manual tranny (auto's rob around 10-20HP), Euro Bumpers, manual windows, et cet.
With 3,000 pounds and 70-ish HP, that's in the ballpark of 42 pounds per HP.
Mod the pump a smidge to increase the fuel a little, injectors, and increase the air, differential gearing, et cet ... would this rival or surpass a very peppy OM617 Turbo?
RE: 240D PERFORMANCE ? Myth or What? - Hercules - 01-28-2016
Turbo charged a 240d a few yrs. back. NOTE: would out perform any good running 300 turbo diesel,except from 0-15mph. Not guessing with math numbers. Very pleased with out come. Worked for MBZ ten years,own mercedes shop 25years. The only thing left to ask is How!
RE: 240D PERFORMANCE ? Myth or What? - Jooseppi Luna - 01-28-2016
Here is my thinking: OM617 NA makes 88 hp, OM617 turbo makes 125 hp. That means that the turbo + larger elements make the engine 42% more powerful. The latest of the OM616 engines makes 71 hp; 42% of 71 hp is 29 hp, meaning that if the gains resulting from turboing the OM617 can be replicated in the OM616, it would get boosted to 100 hp. This would result in a power-to-weight ratio of 3100 lb/100 hp = 31 lb/hp for an OM616 turbo as opposed to the 3650 lb/125 hp = 29.2 lb/hp of the OM617 turbo, almost the same.
I think that the OM616 has a lot of unappreciated potential. I do remember seeing something about a turbo 616 running like 28 psi or something and cranking out 245 HP... I just haven't been able to find it again.
RE: 240D PERFORMANCE ? Myth or What? - Greazzer - 01-29-2016
Thanks Hercules and Jooseppi Luna,
Hercules, -- need your help then.
any chance you could post some snappies, please? And some details ?
I know from my experience with my OM617 NA engine, with slightly mod'd injectors and air box (THAT'S IT), and 2.65 LSD differential with 5 speed, that combination would smoke most turbo's (assume stock for the most part) on the road now.
My thinking is slightly mod'd injectors and air intake, and same differential and tranny in a OM616, with weight under 3,000 pounds, and that car would certainly or should smoke most turbos on the road now. PLEASE NOTE, this drive train/set up would be a DD version and not something which one would be out there trying to set a record or make a point on the forums. Looking for the max in economy and performance.
I know my current 240D is pretty peppy now. Weather permitting, modified intake / non-EGR exhaust is going on this weekend. I can hop on the interstate and I do not experience the horrible experiences in the 240D and that's with no real mods yet other than changing the oil and going with my manual steering system (one less pump to spin).
So, Hercules please share your R&D, and J.L .... more math please ...
RE: 240D PERFORMANCE ? Myth or What? - Hercules - 01-30-2016
Ok, Greazzer will try to assist. Timing mod. remove injection pump timer ,take apart,locate spring base mounts ( 4 ) remove 1 half mm material from flats of each, the springs set on these. Find the stop pins,these are inside springs.Remove 1 mm material from each of these. A small amount of material will need to be removed from timer housing to allow pins to stop the advance not the housing. Little bit of a long job. Imo well worth doing. What to expect, Bit better take off,over all performance increase, smoother operation. Reset pump timing. Will try to relate one mod. each day. Having computer problems.