air-water intercoolers - Printable Version

air-water intercoolers - Printable Version

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air-water intercoolers - mcwfxx - 02-07-2016

I have no choice, only a air-to-water intercooler is going to work if i want to keep my vito looking normal and not have an intercooler poking out the bumper....

Chinese ones, in this design....:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/361483507023

Does anyone know, are they any good? How do they compare (when used with appropriate pump and radiator) to an air/air intercooler, how do we compare when there are no specs?! Planning 400-500bhp eventually....

there are two sizes i can see, the one above and:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/221888364379

either will fit in my engine bay above the engine, the smaller one may be better for pipework as i might be able to locate it below the inlet manifold (larger one doesnt seem to be available in same side inlet/outlet so might be another couple of 90 degree bends which may affect air flow - lesser of two evils i guess, but haven't a clue! ;-) ).

Probably going to go for a smart car engine radiator and fan for the intercooler (as i have a collection of them) mounted under the van at rear of gearbox next to propshaft where the exhaust box was just off horizontal with ducting to protect, and the appropriate bosch pump.

Any thoughts gratefully received!!!

Thanks

Sam

RE: air-water intercoolers - baldur - 02-07-2016

IMO, water to air intercoolers are better suited to petrol engines than diesels, the reason being that a diesel cruises under boost even at moderate loads and thus has a steady heat flow into the intercooler and the water to air cooler just has a longer path to remove that heat. Not really an issue but it means you need to size the cooler appropriately. I'm sure a Smart radiator is perfect for the job. It also helps that diesels aren't as pissy about charge air temperatures as petrol engines are.

RE: air-water intercoolers - MFSuper90 - 02-08-2016

I don't know how to do this besides running a reputable brand (bell, etc), but I think cheap ones don't dissipate heat as well as the larger ones. Competition engines use them with an ice box for lower temps, one guy told me his intake temps were 700F before the W/A and 70F after. This is on a 1500+hp cummins though and probably a expensive cooler with an ice box

RE: air-water intercoolers - mcwfxx - 02-08-2016

Thanks Baldur and mfsuper90,

my other option is a bonnet scoop, there is a plastic scuttle panel that could be used to duct the air back out if i mounted an air intercooler ontop of the engine, but i hear what you are saying Baldur, and it probably would be more sense technically to go air-air, but not quite sure a bonnet scoop is what i want.

I guess it's a case of try and see!

They aren't expensive, and i'm sure someone would buy it off me on ebay if it wasnt upto the job. I thought i saw one similar in someones post, but can't find it.

just a shame they don't have any technical details!

RE: air-water intercoolers - Turbo - 02-08-2016

(02-08-2016, 12:29 PM)MFSuper90 "reputable brand (bell, etc)"
Well Bell may have great stuff but asking mr Gerhard M Schruf on bell again I will not do, his support and feedback suck in a degree that I have not experience any where before, I give him quite good input what I wanted to achieve and input data, the answer for some years, yes years, was have not time right now will do when I have time, and finally the result it will not work not how close they could get...

Since I am dealing with heat exchangers in my jobb on a daily bases both physical and theoretical in form of calculations so I was amazed by the answer I did receive for him, specially when I call him on the phone... Of course this does not make me an expert but I was really hoping for some guides...

What really sucks about air/to water or water water intercooler normally find on different sites I have encounter is there is not data, and it is good for 1500HP, that is according to me no data. Normally regarding heat exchanger there is a numerical model that has been correlated with real world measurement put in a program, and that program can in some degree pre dictate performance in some situations.

"fundamentals of heat an mass transfer Frank P incropera and David P Dewitt it quite nice, in heat exchangers I do want to know the basic information for a operating point like:
side one;
massflow
temp in and out
pressurelosses
Side 2;
massflow
temp in and out
pressure losses
even better if you will know the heat transfer coefficient on both side so you will know where the bottle neck is

Some basic understanding in heat exchangers
power transferred is P=kAv
p power in watt
A is the area in square meter
k is the overall heat transfer coefficient /w/m2k) a measure how good it is in specific terms,
v s the logarithmic mean temperature difference, simple how the heat exchanger sides sees different temperature, different in temperature is the driving force of heat from one side to the other.

another way to see it is NTU method number of transferring units
NTU=UA/Cmin
where Cmin is specific heat capacity multiply with the flow
where qmax, maximal theoretical transferd power
qmax=Cmin( Temperature hot in-Tcold in)
where E=q/qmax, the effectiveness of the heat exchanger
here q is the transfer power
and deepening on construction basic E for some heat exchangers can not go over certain level no matter how big the heat exchanger is

So what we really want to know is the U valve and the flow, if they are given it is possible to predict other operation points by some simplified equations.

and simply if your turbo transfer 300kw of mechanical power from turbine to compressor it will mean we are interested of cooling of 300KW of heat and it also means that 300kw of heat has been taken out from the exhaust gas, the worse efficiency just mean that turbine needs more pressure difference and for compressor less pressure difference delivered this is no voodoo just basic thermodynamics with some some for making it simpler

And some intercooler sellers you can ask -"how many apples it will give" and they will answer 3 cucumbers...

RE: air-water intercoolers - Hario' - 02-09-2016

Mate the problem with the cheap ebay coolers is their construction. They are cast from thick, low quality aluminium which does not conduct or dissipate heat due to a) material thickness, and b) material quality. Both affect the thermal conductivity (k value).

A good used OEM branded heat exchanger will be more effective, and probably cheaper!

Off the top of my head: UK vehicles which use air/water charge cooling which you could get high quality used parts from: Jag V8, Range Rover P38 V8, Lotus (old one with blow through delortos), etc.

Beers, H.

RE: air-water intercoolers - DiseaselWeasel - 02-09-2016

- Mercedes 290GD Turbodiesel
- Mercedes G270 CDI
- Mercedes ML 400 CDI
- Mercedes S400 CDI
- Mercedes C30 CDI AMG
- Mercedes SLK320 Kompressor AMG
- Jaguar XJR6 Supercharged (L6)
- Jaguar XJR Supercharged (V8)
- Toyota Celica GT4
- Subaru Legacy
- Lotus Carlton
- Lotus Esprit Turbo
- Peugeot 605 / Citröen XM 2.5TD
- Smart Brabus Roadster
- Ford Lightning Pick-Up
- BMW X6M/X5M (E70 / E71 - one cooler per cylinder bank)

...and probably some more make use of air/water-ICs.

This is low-temp. radiator from S400 CDI (W220 S-Class):

[Image: s400cdi-1.jpg]

It is HUGE. I've not done it, but heat-soak can be a problem. Which can be cured with using a BIG radiator and have a substantial amount of water in a separate circuit for charge cooling. Those eBay chargecoolers seem to just flush a std. intercooler core with water. It may work, but it's not efficient. Look at the design of the AMG C30 chargecooler; that's a nice design which will most probably work very well!

It is elongated, cold water enters at the cold side of the heat-exchanger and passes the core in a cross-flow maner. That's a a good design right there!

[Image: d69fs7mno3dvz8237.jpg]

Though sadly they have a reputation of leaking coolant into the charge air...

RE: air-water intercoolers - mcwfxx - 02-09-2016

Really appreciate the help and info! I'm going to have a look about, see what is available. That list is great, thank you!!!

The smart brabus roadster ones were amazing! Red hot engine bay, and condensation running down them on a hot day, and cool to the touch after a good thrashing and stop and get out quickly. Shame they were so small. That's my only experience with them. Customers used to lose the coolant when the pumps broke, so they do get hot!

:-)

RE: air-water intercoolers - [486] - 02-09-2016

Make sure to leak test with soap water before leaving feedback on the ebay ones.

Mine leaked, and I ended up negotiating a partial refund to "have it epoxy coated on the inside".
Really, I just used epoxy paint shook inside the water channels to seal up the pinhole leaks.

Or, you know, buy a decent manufacturer one that will actually have been leak checked.

RE: air-water intercoolers - Hario' - 02-10-2016

(02-09-2016, 11:47 PM)[486] Make sure to leak test with soap water before leaving feedback on the ebay ones.

Mine leaked, and I ended up negotiating a partial refund to "have it epoxy coated on the inside".

Really, I just used epoxy paint shook inside the water channels to seal up the pinhole leaks.

Or, you know, buy a decent manufacturer one that will actually have been leak checked.

Epoxy I'm sure is a very good insulator..

OP as you're in the UK, the P38 v8 rangerover charge cooler radiator is a good should as it's very big, cheap and plentiful.

Also aux heater circuit pumps are good circulation pumps as they're 1/2" fittings and made by Bosch.

Finding space for a 3 gallon header tank is the hard bit, most use the boot but I think you'd need a substantial circulation pump for those sort of pipe runs, or a pusher at each end of the vehicle for the feed/return halves of the circuit.

Beers.

RE: air-water intercoolers - DiseaselWeasel - 02-10-2016

I might have a G270 CDI charge cooler for sale... Make me an offer. But I don't think it's suitable for a high-powered OM606, since the intake/outlet is relatively smal.

[Image: g270cdi-wllk.jpg]

RE: air-water intercoolers - Tito - 02-10-2016

I also have one of these:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/361483507023

I don't think its that bad. The water inlet and outlet isn't the best because it can flow straight true. But you can work around that.
I'll be installing temperature sensor before and after the ic. And i'll be using a Suzuki Alto radiator which is quiet big for a water ic.

RE: air-water intercoolers - LongOldLandy - 02-11-2016

Pretty sure the V8 P38 doesn't have any intercooler or charge cooler as it's N/A. The diesel version had a decent intercooler but not a water/air jobbie.

RE: air-water intercoolers - mcwfxx - 02-11-2016

I thought about making a bonnet scoop and just ducting an air/air one in and straight out of scuttle panel - but it's more work and i just want to get back on the road!

I had a look through the list that DiseaselWeasel kindly put up, and found some others thanks to ebay lol, and the problem seems to be small inlet/outlet or physically quite small, and some of the ones available seem to be part of a pair.

I might take my chances on a chinese one, buy from a uk seller as i don't fancy them deciding import duty - then i'll pressure test when i receive it, hoping a local radiator shop might help me, they did before a long time ago (and the bung flew off, bounced off the ceiling and landed on me) - it was free that time hah. It will go back if it leaks, paypal can arrange that ;-)

If i do that (still time to think!) I'll see about sticking a temperature sensor before and after, both for charge air temperature and coolant in and out. as you said Tito, And i'll record the figures so we get some sort of idea how effective. I guess really i want a pressure sensor before and after, but that's unlikely as they're expensive if you want upto 3bar above atmpspheric it seems.

Pipework with the chinese Z configuration one will be easy i think. Was going to get manifold modified for top entry, but i think a U tube might be easier

What size pipework do people go with on STD 606?

RE: air-water intercoolers - soltysrsz - 02-11-2016

what about this intercooler:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/CHARGE-COOLER-INLET-MANIFOLD-SUPERCHARGER-Jaguar-XJR-XJ6-1994-1997-/281495623801?fits=Car+Make%3AJaguar|Plat_Gen%3AX300&hash=item418a725879:g:NyAAAOSw~FNUY8R8

it would be suitable for hight-powered om606??

RE: air-water intercoolers - Hario' - 02-12-2016

(02-11-2016, 09:34 AM)LongOldLandy Pretty sure the V8 P38 doesn't have any intercooler or charge cooler as it's N/A. The diesel version had a decent intercooler but not a water/air jobbie.

That's because I am a liar!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rover-Range-Rover-3rd-Gen-L322-02-VOGUE-3L-Auto-Diesel-Charge-Cooler-Rad-/351061998999?hash=item51bcecfd97:g:~1kAAOSwlPRTYlUi

It's from the newer (BMW engined?) one..

RE: air-water intercoolers - Hario' - 02-12-2016

I go on ebay too much..

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jeep-Grand-Cherokee-WJ-3-1-99-04-turbo-charge-air-cooler-radiator-intercooler-/252171159772?fits=Plat_Gen%3AMK+II&hash=item3ab69288dc:g:qpoAAOSw4UtWR-y4

RE: air-water intercoolers - DiseaselWeasel - 02-12-2016

That's an air/air intercooler...

RE: air-water intercoolers - Sultzi - 02-13-2016

I bought garrett 717874-6008 water to air core for my om606 daily driver upgrade. Should do nicely, garrett rated all the way to 750hp, im aiming at 400-450hp in dd. And that s-class heat exhanger looks nice, maybe I use that too. I was thinking first to use something like 30row oil cooler.

RE: air-water intercoolers - [486] - 02-13-2016

(02-10-2016, 07:49 AM)Hario Epoxy I'm sure is a very good insulator..

Pfff, if it makes a 10F difference in charge temps I'll be astounded.
Like saying your car's gonna overheat because the radiator shop painted the outside of your radiator.

Actually, I don't even have water in the thing yet. It's cold enough outside that I've never seen MATs over 80F even at 30 PSI.
When cruising around, off boost, the MAT is around 30F and the thermal mass of the core alone has been enough so far.

Bought one of those chinese ones for the core, hacked the end tanks off and integrated it into my intake manifold as there wasn't room to do it any other way.
[Image: vi2uee.jpg]

Next time I have it out, I'm going to add a divider in one of the end tanks and tap a couple new holes to make the coolant take two passes through the core, with both water fittings on the same side.

RE: air-water intercoolers - Hario' - 02-15-2016

(02-13-2016, 12:59 PM)[486]
(02-10-2016, 07:49 AM)Hario Epoxy I'm sure is a very good insulator..
Pfff, if it makes a 10F difference in charge temps I'll be astounded.
Like saying your car's gonna overheat because the radiator shop painted the outside of your radiator.

Lol i'm just saying not coating the inside of an intercooler with plasticy resin would be best.

*Goes to buy a temperature probe...*

RE: air-water intercoolers - DiseaselWeasel - 02-24-2016

Ooops, that AMG thing is quite a bit bigger than I thought Big Grin

Another nice tough; dividers in both inlet & exit, should make for a nice equal distribution of air through the core...

[Image: amg-4.jpg]

Got this for 13€, but apparently it's leaking (like so many)...

RE: air-water intercoolers - Hario' - 02-26-2016

(02-24-2016, 02:04 PM)DiseaselWeasel Ooops, that AMG thing is quite a bit bigger than I thought

Another nice tough; dividers in both inlet & exit, should make for a nice equal distribution of air through the core...

Got this for 13€, but apparently it's leaking (like so many)...

dam shame that thing looks efficient as hell. Radweld..? haha.

They leak coolant into boost passages right??

RE: air-water intercoolers - DiseaselWeasel - 02-26-2016

I think they do, yes... Not tested it yet.

RE: air-water intercoolers - Hario' - 03-24-2016

Good reading and ideas here dude

http://honda-tech.com/forced-induction-16/water-air-intercooler-setups-post-um-2505985/

Don't worry its not all about 'Handas'..