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+--- Thread: 10mm Element Thread (/showthread.php?tid=716)
10mm Element Thread - shredator - 09-28-2009
This thread will be to document my adventures with 10mm elements in my spare MW pump. Hopefully for the benefit (or amusement) of many.
The pump:
found in the front seat of a 300d at my local pick-n-pull. They only charged me $30 for it! (after haggling)
The elements:
The elements that I bought are for a Bosch pes6mw100/320rs5 which apparently comes on some sort of Volvo. The Bosch part # for the elements is 1 418 512 201. <-- incorrect part number! correct ones below.
I bought my parts from the Chinahanji parts plant. This took several emails back and forth with the sales person, and about two months from first contact until the parts actually arrived. The elements were $12.50 each. Shipping was about $56 (from Fujian province, China to California, USA).
I would recommend that folks who buy elements from china consider buying one or two extra parts. The guy that installed the parts mentioned that one of the elements was sticky. Made me glad that I bought 6 instead of 5.
The shop:
The only shop that I could find in my area that would work on the pump was Pacific Fuel Injection in South San Francisco. The owner is pretty friendly, but seemed skeptical that it would work out. He offered to turn up the pump and not rebuild it, but I insisted that I wanted to give the elements a try. The turnaround time was about a month. He preferred that I not discuss his pricing with others.
surprisingly, he was able to calibrate it so that it is actually delivering pretty close to spec for the stock pump. So right now the pump is turned way down. My plan is to get it running, confirm that it wont run away, then work on getting the engine more air, then start turning it up. He said that he set it up so that I could turn it up myself by adjusting the throttle stop. btw, I asked him about internal linkage binding problems due to throttle stop adjustment. He said its not a problem.
the install
what a PITA! I didnt realize that you have to remove the oil filter in order to change the pump.
I wasnt able to get it done over the weekend. Hopefully I can wrap up the install this week.the results
hopefully awesome...
Edited to show correct part numbers:
the elements have the Chinahanji part number of CZ-B415 019, bosch part number is 1 418 415 019
RE: 10mm Element Thread - ForcedInduction - 09-28-2009
Sounds good. Everyone that has been thinking of that project has been told the 10mm element's stroke is different.
Tom has an external full load lever adjustment that shouldn't affect the linkage.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - willbhere4u - 09-29-2009
Keep us updated on this project and take some pic's a Holset xy or hy should work out nice with a built pump and support 25-30 psi no problem
RE: 10mm Element Thread - winmutt - 09-29-2009
There are two different types of 10mm elements, "thin" and "thick". The ones found on the cummins are the "thick" I believe. This is for the MW pump.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - shredator - 09-29-2009
(09-28-2009, 09:54 PM)ForcedInduction Tom has an external full load lever adjustment that shouldn't affect the linkage.
where can I find out about more about this? having an external lever for the full load adj would be sweet. and who is Tom?
RE: 10mm Element Thread - winmutt - 10-01-2009
I moved his post into a seperate thread :
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/tomniks-diy-bosch-mw-external-full-load-adjustment-t-735.html#pid6876
RE: 10mm Element Thread - tomnik - 10-01-2009
Hi shredator,
do you have any bench data like flow at 13.5mm control rod position or deviation in individual quantity at idle and 13.5 mm CR position?
Tom
RE: 10mm Element Thread - shredator - 10-01-2009
I have a sheet that the guy gave me that shows quantities at different operating points like; idle, full load, full load w/ pressure on the alda, and breakaway. Ill have to look at it again to see if it has what you are asking for. Also, I have pictures of all this stuff, but the forum wouldnt let me upload them. Ill try again tonight.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - winmutt - 10-01-2009
LMK if there is a problem with uploads (was one but resolved yesterday or day before). This thread is worthless without pics!
RE: 10mm Element Thread - tomnik - 10-01-2009
can you scan the sheets and post them?
Tom
RE: 10mm Element Thread - shredator - 10-02-2009
here are some pics.
the sheet with the fuel quantities:
the pump:
10mm and stock plungers side by side:
RE: 10mm Element Thread - ForcedInduction - 10-02-2009
(10-02-2009, 01:09 AM)shredator 10mm and stock plungers side by side:
I must say, damn thats huge!
RE: 10mm Element Thread - DeliveryValve - 10-02-2009
That indeed is big.
(09-29-2009, 12:31 PM)winmutt There are two different types of 10mm elements, "thin" and "thick". The ones found on the cummins are the "thick" I believe. This is for the MW pump.
^^^ So is that the thick or thin elements?
RE: 10mm Element Thread - tomnik - 10-02-2009
(10-02-2009, 01:28 AM)DeliveryValve ^^^ So is that the thick or thin elements?
these elements have the same stroke (8mm) as the originals.
BUT: Are there only 4 cylinders?
The variation in quantity is way too much but could be better adjusted.
The differences are similar through the range.
This is not finished yet!?
Something does not work.
Here is what the MW65 Holly flows at 13.5mm control rod (and in the narrow tubes the idle quantity):
RE: 10mm Element Thread - tantank79 - 10-02-2009
Tom,
Could you please explain to us how you are reading this sheet? What are the important things to look for?
Thank you
RE: 10mm Element Thread - shredator - 10-02-2009
Sorry, I was planning to explain the sheet a bit better but forgot.
The printed columns on the left, numbered 1-5 correspond to the fuel amounts delivered for each cylinder at the different operating conditions. The guy said that the variation was within the acceptable limits.
the handwritten numbers on the right are the average quantities (over all cylinders) that I would get by turning the throttle stop screw in by the number of turns indicated at the top of the column. He provided info for 1,2,3 and 4 turns.
Yeah these are the "thin" elements.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - winmutt - 10-02-2009
Can't wait to hear on longevity.... This sounds like the $200 (parts) upgrade for everyone!
RE: 10mm Element Thread - OM616 - 10-02-2009
Looking at the difference in mass between the 5.5mm and the 10mm elements, it would seem to me that the 10mm elements would use/need a stronger return spring, compared to the spring requirements for the 5.5mm elements, to maintain the same high RPM capability as the 5.5mm elements.
Do the stock 10mm element IPs use stronger element return springs?
RE: 10mm Element Thread - willbhere4u - 10-02-2009
How much power do you estimate this pump will support??? very cool project take some vis when you get it running!!!
RE: 10mm Element Thread - ForcedInduction - 10-02-2009
5.5mm can pump 760mm3, 6.5mm 1062mm3, 10mm 2514mm3.
3.3x the static displacement of the stock elements, or, FAR more power than the engine could ever contain.
The 7mm Myna can support around 450hp on a 5-cylinder.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - willbhere4u - 10-02-2009
sweet!!! I need to save up a bit I guess
RE: 10mm Element Thread - tomnik - 10-04-2009
o.k. now it's more clear. I got confused by the handwritten numbers.
All the numbers are with governor?
The pump only numbers would be interesting to get an idea of how the governor settings have to be reduced to flow the required amount. That would give the reduction of the governor range. In case the usable range gets too narrow the governor might not work properly.
When do you have the IP in the car?
Tom
RE: 10mm Element Thread - tomnik - 10-05-2009
(10-02-2009, 12:36 PM)OM616 Looking at the difference in mass between the 5.5mm and the 10mm elements, it would seem to me that the 10mm elements would use/need a stronger return spring, compared to the spring requirements for the 5.5mm elements, to maintain the same high RPM capability as the 5.5mm elements.
Do the stock 10mm element IPs use stronger element return springs?
The compression spring is the same for MW55 and MW100 (1 414 619 014). At least it is used in all MW55 and some MW100
This is the element assembly of the original MW100.
The spring looks pretty strong. Don’t have the pic or dimension of the MW55 spring.
Tom
RE: 10mm Element Thread - shredator - 10-05-2009
(10-04-2009, 04:38 AM)tomnik The pump only numbers would be interesting to get an idea of how the governor settings have to be reduced to flow the required amount. That would give the reduction of the governor range. In case the usable range gets too narrow the governor might not work properly.
When do you have the IP in the car?
yeah. The governors ability to control the pump is still the biggest unknown. The guy that built the thing for me was concerned about that as well. I'm still optimistic
I dont know when I will get the thing on the car. hopefully soon. one of the bolts holding the oil filter deal on the engine block was f'ed up, and I had to grind and hacksaw it off.
Ive decided to ditch the oil filter thing all together, as I dont want to go through this messy ordeal every time I want to remove or adjust the IP. I fabbed a plate to go over the holes in the engine block that has some -10 fittings welded to it, and I have on order some hose and one of those remote-mount dual filter thingys that uses regular chevy filters. So now I have to complete this "project" before I get back to installing the IP
RE: 10mm Element Thread - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-05-2009
You can remove the pump without removing the oil filter.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - George3soccer - 10-05-2009
Wow is all i have to say, very nice upgrade, please let us know how everything turns out to.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - shredator - 10-05-2009
(10-05-2009, 03:00 PM)Rudolf_Diesel You can remove the pump without removing the oil filter.
AAWWWWW!!
seriously!? So I didnt have to go through all this? what is the trick?
the manual that I am working from said that it had to be removed, and it looked to me like there wasnt enough room to get it out.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-05-2009
(10-05-2009, 06:56 PM)shredator(10-05-2009, 03:00 PM)Rudolf_Diesel You can remove the pump without removing the oil filter.
AAWWWWW!!
seriously!? So I didnt have to go through all this? what is the trick?
You have to remove the shut off valve and possibly the idle damping screw as well. Then you have to get the FUCKING rear screw and bracket off - that is the hardest part! When you remove the pump you have to pull straight back, when you clear the studs you then lift the back end up as you continue to pull the pump out. The M-pump is a little shorter but the same procedure for pulling it. I can pull my pump and adjust it and install in about 20 minutes tops.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - ForcedInduction - 10-05-2009
The M is cake to pull with the filter in place, its got plenty of room behind it. I had to remove the filter to get my MW out though.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - Rudolf_Diesel - 10-05-2009
Before I went ahead and pulled the pump (MW) when I was doing the swap to the M, I contemplated pulling the filter housing - I even bought a gasket. But seeing the glass half full, instead of half empty with a big freakin hole in the bottom, I tried to pull the pump and was successful. I can remember reading about FI's experience with the oil lines and didn't want a repeat. The worse that could happen is I don't get the pump out and I have to pull the oil filter.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - Tymbrymi - 10-06-2009
I didn't have to take anything off the pump itself, other than that stupid lower rear bracket (argh!!!). I just finagled around with it until it popped right on out. There is a very small window which it will fit out of, but it is very much worth the time spent jiggling the pump around to find it to avoid pulling the oil filter!
On topic... AWESOME mod!!
I'm anxiously awaiting your results. BTW, put a new gasket on the IP!!!! I didn't and had a 1/qt per 100 mile oil leak that only occurred at speed. It of course happened while I was 500 miles from home.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - OM616 - 10-09-2009
(10-05-2009, 05:24 AM)tomnik(10-02-2009, 12:36 PM)OM616 Looking at the difference in mass between the 5.5mm and the 10mm elements, it would seem to me that the 10mm elements would use/need a stronger return spring, compared to the spring requirements for the 5.5mm elements, to maintain the same high RPM capability as the 5.5mm elements.
Do the stock 10mm element IPs use stronger element return springs?
The compression spring is the same for MW55 and MW100 (1 414 619 014). At least it is used in all MW55 and some MW100
This is the element assembly of the original MW100.
The spring looks pretty strong. Don’t have the pic or dimension of the MW55 spring.
Tom
Good to know, Any Idea what Delivery Valve would be best to use with the 10MM Element?
I have been thinking about the 8MM MW elements, figuring that I would have to massage the helix to allow for more rack travel with out over fueling. I would be afraid that without modifying the helix, the 8MM or 10MM element's throttle response would be very touchy, as in "on or off". I am very curious to hear how the 10s work out.
When combined with honed nozzles, either 8MM or 10MM elements would allow for a grate deal of fuel to be injected in a very short period of time.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - tomnik - 10-09-2009
The delivery valve issue is very complex. This is more sound physics than mechanical. I will touch the DV when all other things are stable.
For first tests just take the originals for the MW55.
The bench flow don't show a restriction with the MW55 DVs.
Tom
RE: 10mm Element Thread - benztek - 10-15-2009
Andy updates on this? Surely I am not the only one holding my breath about this one!!
RE: 10mm Element Thread - George3soccer - 10-20-2009
Yes please do let us know about this. Awaiting the good news.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - shredator - 10-21-2009
(10-20-2009, 01:05 PM)George3soccer Yes please do let us know about this. Awaiting the good news.
i know, i know. sorry to take so long. life has really been getting in the way lately
the fasteners that I need to get my 'oil relocation plate' bolted up should arrive next week
RE: 10mm Element Thread - tomnik - 10-21-2009
Btw, can you supply enough air? Turbo upgrade?
If not just limit the outer control lever until it does not smoke.
Tom
RE: 10mm Element Thread - GREASY_BEAST - 10-28-2009
can't wait to hear about this one!
RE: 10mm Element Thread - benztek - 10-28-2009
(10-21-2009, 11:16 PM)shredator(10-20-2009, 01:05 PM)George3soccer Yes please do let us know about this. Awaiting the good news.
i know, i know. sorry to take so long. life has really been getting in the way lately
the fasteners that I need to get my 'oil relocation plate' bolted up should arrive next week
It is now next week as you said!!!!! Whats up with it? Did you get it in? Whats taking so long?
Sorry I'm like a kid in a candy store waiting on this one!
RE: 10mm Element Thread - GREASY_BEAST - 11-04-2009
¿Que pasa?
RE: 10mm Element Thread - shredator - 11-04-2009
the pump and oil filter relocation stuff are bolted up. I need to time the pump, fill everything with oil, hook up an egt gauge, and fire it up. I have not obtained the fittings that i need to hook up the turbo oil supply, so I removed the turbo, and will test without it for now.
friday will be a furlough (wrenching) day for me. I hope to report on how it runs (if at all) on friday.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - benztek - 11-05-2009
Anxiously awaiting!!!!!
RE: 10mm Element Thread - HoleshotHolset - 11-05-2009
(10-09-2009, 03:37 PM)tomnik The bench flow don't show a restriction with the MW55 DVs.
That supports how more than a handful of few people feel about modified DVs. They believe that modified DVs don't flow more fuel.
I for one have seen many times what modified or "bigger" DVs will do with a Cummins - and it has been shown here what they do on an IDI Merc. Unfortunately the idle goes to pot on the IDI Mercs. Bummer.
VERY good thread, BTW. I'm looking forward to hearing about your results. Also - you've got balls for buying Chinese injection pump parts - I've seen lots of sites offering lots of inexpensive goodies but never pulled the trigger.
Beers,
Matt
RE: 10mm Element Thread - willbhere4u - 11-05-2009
keep up the good work!!! please take some vids when you get it running!!!!! and good luck!!!!
It didnt run away! - shredator - 11-07-2009
I woke the neighborhood up this morning with a healthy dose of raw, unmuffled diesely goodness
I am happy to report that it idles, and does not run away. But there are a few issues.
The idle is kinda rough. I noticed that after I shut it down, there was some wetness around some of the injector lines, so I am hoping that its caused by a leak, and not the pump.
There seems to be more smoke at idle than there should be. But then I did time the IP without a drip tube, and its only at 24 btdc. Im hoping that I can clear up some of the smoke by advancing a bit.
There is also a definate hesitation when moving the rack off idle. The engine really boggs down for a while, even if I carefully ease on the throttle. Not sure what to do about that. Could that be a timing problem too? Ideas?
I took a video of it running. I will put it on youtube and link it here shortly.
EDIT:heres the vid http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bI-vmoQX_AI I think all the racket scared one of my cats. you can hear it meow loudly right at the end hehe.
Also, here are some pics of the oil relocation stuff in case anyone cares about that stuff.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - OM616 - 11-07-2009
"There is also a definate hesitation when moving the rack off idle. The engine really boggs down for a while, even if I carefully ease on the throttle. Not sure what to do about that. Could that be a timing problem too? Ideas?"
That is the Idle Governor. It is over counteracting the ever slightly increased engine speed. If you increase the throttle until it bogs down and hold it, will it come back and bog out, come back and bog out, etc (searching)? Then if you continue to gradually increase the throttle will the cycle get faster until the engine takes off and revs up?
If yes, it is an Idle Governor oscillation (in your case radical searching), the Idle Governor can be adjusted to achieve a better balance with the internal throttle spring and bigger elements. The idle Governor is over adjusting (over compensating) with the larger elements.
Some adjustments to the Idle Governor and Throttle and you should be fine. You are in uncharted waters, if this is the only issue you are having, I am very excited!
RE: 10mm Element Thread - GREASY_BEAST - 11-08-2009
BLOODY AWESOME! Bravo. On a side note, these engines would sound beautiful a supercharger, tubular headers and a straight pipe, no turbo to soften it. With this kind of fuel available, it would be doable. Can't wait until you get it back together! Do let us know how it drives, and what happens when you start turning screws under the rear cover.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - benztek - 11-09-2009
I know this may be a little premature but if it is possible to dial in the 10mm elements, what size turbo is going to be needed to make use of all the extra fuel?
RE: 10mm Element Thread - ForcedInduction - 11-09-2009
There is no possible way the engine can handle anything remotely close to what 10mm elements can pump out. Myna's 7mm pump supports 450hp on a 5-cylinder, 10mm elements can pump a hair over twice that amount of fuel.
Depending on the rebuild cost, and the longevity of the Chinese elements, one could save about $800 over buying a full myna setup.
RE: 10mm Element Thread - winmutt - 11-09-2009
LOL I think I just scared half my office with my maniacal laughter. Have your tried dialing the rack dampener all the way in?