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Low boost on OM606 project - BlueStreak - 07-06-2016
Gents
Looking to tap into your expertise. I have a S210 E300TD and am putting the final touches to my tune. In short, 8 mm Dieselmenken pump, EGR delete, 45 Hypergate Turbosmart wastegate, 722.6 controller with paddles, WA580 gearbox and a Borg Warner model S200 S068 turbo with T3 Volutes. It’s a split 3-3 manifold, however, I have used an OM605 and OM606 manifold and made an adapter to link the two. (Have attached Pic)
Anyway, my Problem…...
No matter what I do, I only get 0.9 Bar of boost. I have pressurised the airside with 1.5 Bar, no leaks, I have removed the exhaust leaving just a clean 3” down pipe to just under steering column and this makes a + 0.1 Bar difference. I thought wastegate may be bleeding off boost so, removed wastegate and blocked of pipe. Again 0.9 Bar Boost.
I am now scratching my head as to why I am only getting 0.9 Bar max.
I bought the Turbo Brand new on ebay for 250 GBP, however, the same turbo can be found here:
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-OEM-TURBOCHARGER-S200-FITS-JOHN-DEERE-4-5L-ENGINE-179554-RE517236-RE517248-/401079886924
Could it be something with this design of Turbo as it was originally designed for a 4.5L tractor! Is there anything I can do keeping this turbo? New Wheel? What do you guys recommend?
Cheers
Nick
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - seanyt - 07-06-2016
If you've done away with the wastegate and its no bleeding off then you probably don't have enough fuel,
Do your pump have alda like the stock kind or the pressure wastegate kind.?,
I've seen the alda stick and the cars solely run on off boost fuelling.
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - STDGer - 07-06-2016
I cant believe gettin 0.9 bar with standard Seiten 48 ccm.
Do u know the size of ur compressor and turbina wheel?
What about ur Intake, did u made an Adapter? Without EGR?
Where do u Pickup ur pressure Signal? 0.9 bar smells like the OEM Boost sensor......
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - BlueStreak - 07-06-2016
[attachment=8785 seanyt pid='81823' dateline='1467839906']If you've done away with the wastegate and its no bleeding off then you probably don't have enough fuel,
Do your pump have alda like the stock kind or the pressure wastegate kind.?,
I've seen the alda stick and the cars solely run on off boost fuelling.
Hi
It's the outside alda that dieselmenken fits, I have attached a stock photo although it's the same as I have fitted to mine if this is what you mean?. I did try turning up the fuel, however, I have not checked by pressurising the system whilst watching it to see if the outside alda is sticking, I just pressurised to look for leaks. I don't think it is sticking because there is a witness mark and wear where it meets the adjustment screw. However, I was running a smaller turbo for ages until i went for the bigger one, so it could have started sticking at some point before fitting my big turbo. Definitely worth a look though, I will check tomorrow.
Thank you for the tip
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - BlueStreak - 07-06-2016
(07-06-2016, 04:37 PM)STDGer I cant believe gettin 0.9 bar with standard Seiten 48 ccm.
Do u know the size of ur compressor and turbina wheel?
What about ur Intake, did u made an Adapter? Without EGR?
Where do u Pickup ur pressure Signal? 0.9 bar smells like the OEM Boost sensor......
Hi
I don't know the size of the compressor wheel and turbine wheel, although I now have the turbo off so can measure. I have deleted the EGR and in its place I have a piece of s/steel tube with two welded on outlets, one for the outside alda and the other for the boost sensor. I bought a 3bar sensor from Ole and am using that with the settings he gave me. I have also used a boost gauge and it's the same. I have been considering sending it off to have a S200 SX super core fitted and a garrett 0.63a/r housing to bring down the spool up time. I'm only getting about 0.3 bar boost up to 3000rpm then max 0.9 bar by 4000 rpm.
I'll measure the sizes tomorrow and post to see what you think before I send away the turbo.
Thanks
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - EvoPeter - 07-06-2016
Much black smoke at 0,9bar?
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - TurboTim - 07-06-2016
Yeah that is the real question...are you getting black smoke. If not turn it up!
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - TurboTim - 07-06-2016
Oh and great manifold! Love the creativity!
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - barrote - 07-07-2016
I´ve seen same problem in a fella 606, with a kkk27 wich i helped to tune. This fella had this KKK27 from a mercedes benz truck V8 bank , this turbo was a freefloat turbo with a A/R 1.28, compressor was some 76mm and turbine some 67 or so.
Despite i told him that this turbo would never work properly he insisted in keeping it, so the behavior was the same as u describe above, by 3k .3to.5 depending on load , at 5.5k max was 1bar load or no load. pump was 7.5 @ 150cc. (smoke was non existent after some boost)
Few time after upon my suggestion (gt30 or above a/r max .80) he found a Holset crap X35W, and the night become day, this holset is the same 76mm compressor and 63 turbine and housing #12, now is pushing 1.5 limited and from 2.5 k on.
I belive , and since u mention tractor 4.5k cubic , u have a too big a/r turbine housing. so my sugestion is for u to find a exaust housing matching your turbine whell in the .63a/r or one in the max of .80 ( is better to use the smaller u can find, if u have EGP u can use the WG for discharge)
MB engines dont smoke that much as people tend to think, with as much as .5 bar is enough to clear 150cc out of a 7.5 pump , being the injection well tuned.
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - BlueStreak - 07-07-2016
(07-07-2016, 03:49 AM)barrote I´ve seen same problem in a fella 606, with a kkk27 wich i helped to tune. This fella had this KKK27 from a mercedes benz truck V8 bank , this turbo was a freefloat turbo with a A/R 1.28, compressor was some 76mm and turbine some 67 or so.
Despite i told him that this turbo would never work properly he insisted in keeping it, so the behavior was the same as u describe above, by 3k .3to.5 depending on load , at 5.5k max was 1bar load or no load. pump was 7.5 @ 150cc. (smoke was non existent after some boost)
Few time after upon my suggestion (gt30 or above a/r max .80) he found a Holset crap X35W, and the night become day, this holset is the same 76mm compressor and 63 turbine and housing #12, now is pushing 1.5 limited and from 2.5 k on.
I belive , and since u mention tractor 4.5k cubic , u have a too big a/r turbine housing. so my sugestion is for u to find a exaust housing matching your turbine whell in the .63a/r or one in the max of .80 ( is better to use the smaller u can find, if u have EGP u can use the WG for discharge)
MB engines dont smoke that much as people tend to think, with as much as .5 bar is enough to clear 150cc out of a 7.5 pump , being the injection well tuned.
Hi Barrote
I think you are right, although mine is a 0.83 a/r housing which would explain why I was seeing my 1 bar max a little earlier and thinking on it there was not much smoke once boost came in. Although it's easy for me to check that the on boost fuelling is working properly, which I will do later.
I didn't spend that much on the turbo £250 new and a company have quoted me around the £400 mark to fit a 0.63 a/r housing and a S200-SX supercore. This 0.63 a/r and supercore setup is supposed to deliver boost early.
Decisions, decisions......... when I originally came up with the idea of using the OM605 and OM606 manifolds it was to keep the gasses hot and bring boost in earlier with an option of increased packaging space to allow for a twin turbo setup in the S210. I may go for a HX 35 in the short term and then work on a twin turbo setup with two smaller turbos that can handle say 2.5 bar of boost. Can you recommend any small readily available turbos that fit that description? That combined would produce around 450 WHP?
So is that HX35 pushing 1.5bar from 2,500 rpm with option for more if it were not limited? What sort of WHP is that giving him do you think?
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - barrote - 07-07-2016
well, that is a very direct question that very few have answear for it...... but i will try to make my point!
as u might know having a day driver and a dragster does not fit toguether, maybe a day driver and a street racer can fit toguether.... or at least i belive they do.... so basically u have to choose setup first DD+SR or drag...
if u choose the dragster , u need lots of intake pressure and lots of fuel from 5k to 6k , in this case u can chose a 500hp EFR67XX or a gt30xx72 R as high pressure and a EFR82xx or gt35xx as low press, HX40 and hx32.... in this area.
but for the day driver .... that wont work , so u need something fast spooling like 2 times gt22V and or 2 times a gt17V
basically u just need to confirm the 56 and 59mm compressors and evaluate the maps, the turbines must be something in the 38mm area or litle biguer 40mm. like this u can have boost early like 1500rpm and it will keep 2 bar at least till 5k , then u may have to tune for EGP but that is another mater.... and a lot easyer to do...
hope it helps to make your mind...
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - Turbo - 07-07-2016
I would say the more you want of both worlds of daily driver and racer the more it will cost and perhaps two turbos is not enough or you need a very last generation of turbos, and then it get quite complex and or costly, I am trying to get more of both worlds and t is not easy
smakar det så kostar det
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - barrote - 07-09-2016
Mr turbo ,
One request , since my math and knowledge in turbo machinery basics is limited , could u please help us with the "Mass flow rate"
required for 50 HP and above in increments of 5 by cylinder in the 4 valve MB engines.(till 100hp would be interesting)
or direct us to a online calculator.....
Thanks
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - Hario' - 07-09-2016
(07-07-2016, 08:17 AM)BlueStreak and a company have quoted me around the £400 mark to fit a 0.63 a/r housing and a S200-SX supercore. This 0.63 a/r and supercore setup is supposed to deliver boost early.lol. Isn't that a completely new turbo then? Hot side & chra. Make sure you get the old bits back...
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - Turbo - 07-09-2016
(07-07-2016, 10:38 AM)barrote well, that is a very direct question that very few have answear for it...... but i will try to make my point!
as u might know having a day driver and a dragster does not fit toguether, maybe a day driver and a street racer can fit toguether.... or at least i belive they do.... so basically u have to choose setup first DD+SR or drag...
if u choose the dragster , u need lots of intake pressure and lots of fuel from 5k to 6k , in this case u can chose a 500hp EFR67XX or a gt30xx72 R as high pressure and a EFR82xx or gt35xx as low press, HX40 and hx32.... in this area.
but for the day driver .... that wont work , so u need something fast spooling like 2 times gt22V and or 2 times a gt17V
basically u just need to confirm the 56 and 59mm compressors and evaluate the maps, the turbines must be something in the 38mm area or litle biguer 40mm. like this u can have boost early like 1500rpm and it will keep 2 bar at least till 5k , then u may have to tune for EGP but that is another mater.... and a lot easyer to do...
hope it helps to make your mind...
(07-09-2016, 12:11 AM)barrote Mr turbo ,
One request , since my math and knowledge in turbo machinery basics is limited , could u please help us with the "Mass flow rate"
required for 50 HP and above in increments of 5 by cylinder in the 4 valve MB engines.(till 100hp would be interesting)
or direct us to a online calculator.....
Thanks
Hello Barrote
what do you mean with "massflow rate"? are you speaking about the consumption of the compressor of the turbo or development of power of the engine?
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - barrote - 07-11-2016
hello mr Turbo,
In the X axis of the compressor map´s there is a value called "air mass flow rate" ( that they say is related with available air to make HP
)That is the numbers i´m after , without that a compressor map worth nothing to me.
I´ve read some thread where a fellow member even left a link to a calculator, but there are certain values wich i´m not familiar with, so since u´re aware of them might u help us.
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - Turbo - 07-11-2016
Hello Barrote
you mean for example in a Garrett map it say on the x axis -"corrected air flow (lb/min) "
what that mean?
http://turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbocharger#GTX4294R
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - barrote - 07-11-2016
lol ,
i dont get your point...
"corrected mass air flow" .... that is the compressor pumping ability , wich can be directly related to engine breathing ability , is that value that will determine HP for a given engine standard model....
For us knowing this engine breathing ability through the rev range, is helpful too choose target goals like turbo-machinery that will most probably have success, instead of "brute force" or "trial and error" testing.
Not knowing how much kg/sec of air the engine will be able to breath, will be difficult to select a compressor /turbine set that keep operation inside the islands of performance.
Knowing how much KG/sec of air the engine breath one can estimate HP according to efficiency of the thing..... , fuel supplied and so on.
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - Turbo - 07-11-2016
"corrected mass air flow" need to be corrected by generaliser parameters pressure and temperature, that will be really affected in a stage set up regarding HP turbo if it going to work with LP turbo together, specially without intercoller between LP and HP turbo.
I now start to see what you want, i do not think it exist, at least I have never seen such a program perhaps program like GT power can do some of the work or others, but they cost a lot, I would love to have one and see what it could do...
I guess you want to see the volumetric efficiency of the engine as a function of rpm in first place, the power is much more then just the air but it is a beginning, just that pressure difference of engine will effect volumetric efficiency, if you stay with Garrett or Borg Warner non VNT you can run they resonantly easy in match boot but you need to know parameters like volumetric efficiency, exhaust temperature and I do not think it correct volumetric efficiency regarding the pressure difference over the engine for the mass flow, it just calculate the mass flow of the turbo at given parameters, if you know what you are doing even stage set up effect can be seen.
many engines now day you can go in the electric control system to see live parameters, and see mass flow as funtion of rpm, without turbo you can calculate vol. effi. to get a hint where you are, or just measure airflow in the engine over rpm range, if pressure ratio difference start to build vol. eff. vill go down and opposite, or just compare volumetric efficiency with and without turbo.
If you have a DI engine you can put in a sensor instead for glow to messure all pressure in the cycle, that will give you a lot, but quite costy, i guess it srtats att about 5000$ just for measure one cylinder
But when you come to vnt turbo there it become a lot harder, turbine efficiency goes down a lot at closing and at a lot open, and do not forget a vnt has lower peak turbine efficiency then a non vnt turbo, it can easy be really bad, specially if it is a early generation turbo, in non modified engine you want higher back pressure for exhaust circulation function so before it has not been that of big desire of what ever reason now.
but I think match bot is a wonderful program to play around with, there is a lot to learn about behaviour of turbos
sorry that I could not be of more help
you do not I get hold of a Bosch injection pump PES6H120 at reasonably price
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - barrote - 07-12-2016
hy ,
got your point... i already knew some of the base in your explanation, but for sure we can find out some numbers just to reach the "zone"
"trial and error" is not that bad, is better when we start knowing some predictable behavior in advance.
"match boost" is most for gasoline engines, ours are diff starting with the comp ratio, and so on...
A PES H well , i can search but those are heavy duty and therefore expensive by nature, PM me on the matter.
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - Turbo - 07-12-2016
match boat is most for estimate in turbo behaviour in calculating airflow, the out put power estimation is most how you say for air/fuel ration and efficiency to the motor, no difference between gasoline/e85/diesel there
though a little funny part is that to take advantage of earlier spool up by using twin srcoll they say increase turbine efficiency at low rpm, and give a number, nothing how they come out with that number... and as we now turbine C/U relation have a impact on this even if it is little...
in school one guy implemented a new constant, your answer* gregers konstant= right answer and this is always right, but note gregers konstant is not always the same value.... Now the one million dollar question, did greger start to work at Borg Warner turbo division
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - EDH_Performance - 07-22-2016
Have you tried to run it without airfilter?
the s200 is not that big for singel turbo on a 606...
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - BlueStreak - 07-26-2016
(07-22-2016, 12:30 AM)EDH_Performance Have you tried to run it without airfilter?
the s200 is not that big for singel turbo on a 606...
Hi,
Yes i've tried everything and no difference, I think it was that the S200 variant that I had was not suited to my application, when I measured the comp wheel it was only 45mm. I now have a machined 0.63 a/r garret housing with S200 supercore with 52mm billet comp wheel. I haven't fitted it on yet but hope to do so in the next week or so.
RE: Low boost on OM606 project - erio - 09-10-2017
did you solve your problem of low boost ?