+- STD (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std)
+-- Forum: Tuning (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Engine (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Thread: full load increase electronic governor (/showthread.php?tid=731)
full load increase electronic governor - tomnik - 09-30-2009
Hi,
found an information where a guy increased the full load on his 250 Turbodiesel with electronic governor. He installed a resistor 4 kOhm and a switch as a bridge between pin 6 (blue/yellow) and pin 7 (grey/black).
Additionally he added a temperatur switch to activate the increase only at a certain temperature.
Maybe the procedure is the same for the 606 engine.
The complete thread is http://fmso.de/forum/messages/802344.htm
in German.
Quick & dirty.
Tom
RE: full load increase electronic governor - E300TSC - 10-06-2009
I'm going to try this on my car... The only difference being that I'll try a variable resistor from 10k to 4k connected to the throttle.
This way the effect increases with throttle position.
RE: full load increase electronic governor - brynton - 10-07-2009
Does this give any noticable increases on performance???
RE: full load increase electronic governor - E300TSC - 10-07-2009
If the turbo could keep up with the fuel, I'd expect this mod to add up to 40HP.
RE: full load increase electronic governor - ForcedInduction - 10-07-2009
Thats the big issue, the stock turbo is already massively undersized for the OM606.
RE: full load increase electronic governor - E300TSC - 10-07-2009
I think this mod combined with some form of VGT would be a great budget performance boost for the electronic engines - 605/606.
RE: full load increase electronic governor - brynton - 10-08-2009
The turbo is the same on the 605 and 606, so is the turbo still under sized to reap any benefits on the 605??
RE: full load increase electronic governor - ForcedInduction - 10-08-2009
Yes. Actually, I'm amazed the KKK K14 doesn't explode on the 606. The backpressure must be sky high passing through that micro sized turbine!
RE: full load increase electronic governor - brynton - 10-08-2009
You are right like,
that looks really small. even if you chopped a pot off the block (like the engine I have), it still seems a tad inadiquite 8(
RE: full load increase electronic governor - E300TSC - 10-08-2009
Forgot to say: Big thanks to Tom for this info! I've been researching this for the last couple months.
RE: full load increase electronic governor - HoleshotHolset - 10-28-2009
Excellent find! This is exactly like the "Evry mod" for the 1.9L TDI's...I wonder if it produces the same result...which is about 20hp or so with no other mods. With larger fuel injector nozzles + the Evry mod...it will REALLY wake up a TDI. Been there, done that.
Beers,
Matt
RE: full load increase electronic governor - HoleshotHolset - 10-28-2009
I'm headed out into the Garage Mahal to have a look at some wires....
RE: full load increase electronic governor - HoleshotHolset - 10-28-2009
The wire colors referenced earlier in this thread did not match anything I was able to see on those wires coming from the injection pump.
However, my injection pump harness connector looks exactly like the one in that German thread...but I didn't have the guts to just start poking away at perfectly good wires.
RE: full load increase electronic governor - E300TSC - 10-29-2009
Matt, I have it listed in my tech notes at home but I'm 99% sure that even though the colors don't match, the pin numbers DO correspond to both pumps. I think I also have the corresponding ECU pins listed.
RE: full load increase electronic governor - HoleshotHolset - 10-29-2009
(10-29-2009, 07:39 AM)E300TSC Matt, I have it listed in my tech notes at home but I'm 99% sure that even though the colors don't match, the pin numbers DO correspond to both pumps. I think I also have the corresponding ECU pins listed.
Excellent - I look forward to your confirmation of this info. I have 3.9k Ohm and 4.7k Ohm resistors in stock.
If this were any other car - I'd just hack into the wires (carefully) and give it a whirl. The thought of shorting something out with this MB makes my stomach turn.
Going off memory from last night...
There were 5 used conductors out of the slickly designed round 7 pin connector. (this matches what we're expecting based on what our friends across the pond found...) I had a yellow, white and red wire, two brown/whites and a blue/red (?)...and a small bundled bit wrapped in black... Obviously - some of these wires are on the same pin...most of them terminated at or near the ECM connector.
I didn't want to test for continuity by having to stab into wires - that sort of thing can bite you in the butt down the road if corrosion sets in.
Beers,
Matt
RE: full load increase electronic governor - E300TSC - 10-29-2009
One thing we (drive by wire owners) can do is mount a micro switch on the TPS that will insert the resistor into the RPS circuit at a given throttle position.
Personally, I want to go with a more linear approach and put a variable resistor in line so the effect comes on smoothly.
Update:
Confirmed this morning relating to the rack position sensor:
Pin 1 - Red
Pin 6 - Green
Pin 7 - Black
RE: full load increase electronic governor - HoleshotHolset - 10-30-2009
(10-29-2009, 01:19 PM)E300TSC One thing we (drive by wire owners) can do is mount a micro switch on the TPS that will insert the resistor into the RPS circuit at a given throttle position.
Personally, I want to go with a more linear approach and put a variable resistor in line so the effect comes on smoothly.
That's pretty much how aftermarket tuning boxes operate - the 'tune' isn't enabled until either throttle position or manifold pressure set points...or both are reached.
(10-29-2009, 01:19 PM)E300TSC Update:
Confirmed this morning relating to the rack position sensor:
Pin 1 - Red
Pin 6 - Green
Pin 7 - Black
It's not that I don't trust you - but I want to double check this info as messing with signals/wires such as this could have catastrophic results if improperly done. Do you have a factory service manual with wiring diagram?
The reason I ask is because I don't recall seeing a green wire in that harness nearest to the ECM - maybe the colors are different for the various model years.
Beers,
Matt
RE: full load increase electronic governor - E300TSC - 10-30-2009
I WISH I had a manual with wiring diagrams! I pretty much have to trace everything out myself by hand.
The colors cited correspond with the pump's internal wiring harness. Here's a little more detailed description:
1 - Red - Rack position (Side 1) ECU pin 21
6 - Green - Rack position (Common) ECU pin 14
7 - Black - Rack position (Side 2) ECU pin 39
2 - Tan - Solenoid ECU pin 1 and 2
3 - Tan - Solenoid ECU pin 17 and 16
I have not personally verified the accuracy of the pins listed for the ECU. That info came from the forum info posted by Tom. I plan on pulling the ECU harness and then doing some continuity tests.
RE: full load increase electronic governor - HoleshotHolset - 11-02-2009
(10-30-2009, 05:19 PM)E300TSC I WISH I had a manual with wiring diagrams! I pretty much have to trace everything out myself by hand.
The colors cited correspond with the pump's internal wiring harness. Here's a little more detailed description:
1 - Red - Rack position (Side 1) ECU pin 21
6 - Green - Rack position (Common) ECU pin 14
7 - Black - Rack position (Side 2) ECU pin 39
2 - Tan - Solenoid ECU pin 1 and 2
3 - Tan - Solenoid ECU pin 17 and 16
I have not personally verified the accuracy of the pins listed for the ECU. That info came from the forum info posted by Tom. I plan on pulling the ECU harness and then doing some continuity tests.
Cool - thanks for that info.
OK...so with that resistor in place we're lying to the ECM about the rack position. Sweet.
Any idea on whether this resistance can be added from idle to redline - or does it have to be added only at WOT? The "Evry mod" on the VW's can be added from idle to WOT...the idle can suffer, however.I haven't been able to find ANY information whatsoever on the IP we have on these OM606.962's. A while back I found a place on eBay that was selling NOS pumps for like $400...they weren't even sure what the intended application was for the pumps...but they just shouted out OM606.962
Beers,
Matt
RE: full load increase electronic governor - HoleshotHolset - 09-29-2010
Has anyone attempted this modification yet?
My 722.608 is hating life these days - otherwise I'd be willing to give it a go if we knew for sure which pins to use.
Cheers,
Matt
RE: full load increase electronic governor - E300TSC - 09-30-2010
Not yet. It's still in my back pocket for later use...
Maybe after the induction system is finished, I'll try it to see how much I can get out of the stock pump.
RE: full load increase electronic governor - HoleshotHolset - 09-30-2010
OK - good to know.
RE: full load increase electronic governor - Olivier - 10-06-2010
Reading this post and I still don't know where to plug the 4K resistor? Should I cut a wire 1. 6, 7, 2 or 3 and bridge it with the resistor or do I bridge other wires?
If anyone can take my hand and guide me where/ how to put it in I'll try it, this will be the test..
I know nutting on electronic...
Thank you.
Olivier
RE: full load increase electronic governor - HoleshotHolset - 10-06-2010
Put that 4k resistor between the wires relating to pins 6 and 7 on either the injection pump harness or on the 'car' side of the connector...doesn't matter much.
See the attached schematic I made. As noted, I would recommend soldering all of the connections I colored in red.
Cheers,
Matt
RE: full load increase electronic governor - Olivier - 10-06-2010
Thank you Matt, that is a brilliant schema.
I'll see if I can do any tinkering this weekend with this.
I guess those wire pin can be find where the ECU is? It'll be easier to pull them and weld there.
is the switch a necessity as you need to turn it on and off or just a prevention in case you like to turn it off?
Again a big tank you
I took the resistor from the boost sensor ( you see, I'm listerning
) and now I am at 15PSI, no difference on the car reaction. I did 0 to 60 in 10 seconds, this on 100% veg, that's not too bad, I still miss the oomph that it use to have before.Perhaps the reisitor will do something
Olivier
RE: full load increase electronic governor - George3soccer - 10-06-2010
Well you now see no different from 19 psi to 15psi. Justbe safe and keep it at the safe level. Do tell us how it goes with the resistor.
RE: full load increase electronic governor - HoleshotHolset - 10-06-2010
I'm glad to help in any way that I can.
I'd do a continuity check with a DMM to ensure the wires you think are the right ones near the ECM relate to the right pins near the injection pump harness connector.
I'd use a switch only because the ECU probably checks the impedance of this circuit when you first turn the key...if the impedance is off, it might throw a code. The reason I feel this way is this is exactly how the "ALH" vintage VW TDI's operate. Flip the switch after the engine is started...or while out on the open roads and you won't have any issues.
This mod on the Merc's is analogous to the "Evry mod" on those TDI's...just fooling the ECM into driving that circuit harder to move the rack in the right direction for more fuel. Idle stability suffered in a big way with the TDI's as you reach the ragged edge of adding more resistance...I'm unsure what will happen with the Merc's...
Cheers,
Matt
RE: full load increase electronic governor - Olivier - 10-06-2010
Humm, idle suffering is not what I'll be looking forward to. I like the smoothness of tha car.
The switch might be a necessity then if you don't want any codes... The bugger would be to remember that its turned off when restarting the car, I am sure I would forget this often, turn the key and go...
I'll check if I got the right wires.
there is what was said earlier, its the proper numbers, is it?
1 - Red - Rack position (Side 1) ECU pin 21
6 - Green - Rack position (Common) ECU pin 14
7 - Black - Rack position (Side 2) ECU pin 39
All the best.
Olivier
RE: full load increase electronic governor - E300TSC - 10-06-2010
According to the German text in Tom's original post, idle problems were only associated with resistor values of 3k or less. 4k seems to be the best compromise.
RE: full load increase electronic governor - HoleshotHolset - 10-07-2010
The idle problems at lower resistance values sounds just like what happens on the TDI's - good to know.
Olivier:
Yes - the wires/pins you have listed seem to jive with what E300TSC posted.
Cheers,
Matt
RE: full load increase electronic governor - Olivier - 10-08-2010
Went to Maplin, electronic store like radio shack, they said there is no 4K resistors???
I got a 3.9K and a 4.3K.
What do I do? Which one to use? Or is there a 4K resistor available?
Cheers.
Olivier
RE: full load increase electronic governor - Olivier - 10-08-2010
Went to Maplin, electronic store like radio shack, they said there is no 4K resistors???
I got a 3.9K and a 4.3K.
What do I do? Which one to use? Or is there a 4K resistor available?
Cheers.
Olivier
RE: full load increase electronic governor - HoleshotHolset - 10-08-2010
(10-08-2010, 11:19 AM)Olivier I got a 3.9K and a 4.3K.
I'd start with the 3.9 - it's closer to 4.0 than the 4.3...
Let us know how it works out!
Cheers,
Matt
RE: full load increase electronic governor - E300TSC - 10-08-2010
The higher resistance is the "safer" choice, I believe, based on the description of the action. There will be slightly less power however...
RE: full load increase electronic governor - Olivier - 10-10-2010
Just want to say I did not fit the resistor yet. I had other things to do( brakes/ seat sensor pad) and when I went to the ECU I forgot how little the print / numbers were on it.
I need a magnifier to look at the right wire/ number.
I'll do that tho.
Is annyone here feel like doing it on the main time?
Olivier
RE: full load increase electronic governor - 300D50 - 10-10-2010
There is no such thing as a 4K resistor, the closest standard values are 4.3K and 3.9K.
I'd use the 4.3K, as a larger resistance is safer in this configuration.
Have fun getting more top end!
RE: full load increase electronic governor - HoleshotHolset - 11-07-2010
The 3.9K Ohm resistor went in and the smoke came out.
I traced some wires with my DMM this afternoon and came up with pins 46 and 9 on the ECU connector that match up with pins 6 and 7 on the injection pump harness. These wires on the ECU connector were then visually traced back to the injection pump harness and corresponded to the red and yellow wires under the ECU cover nearest to the ECU connector. So I soldered in some wires which I ran to the cabin that had the resistor and the switch soldered up...then went for a test drive.
This picture is horrible, but it will give you an idea where you need to look to find the red/yellow wires on the injection pump harness...which I tried to point out in the middle.
The seat of the pants dyno tells me that this made a pretty good jump in power for cheap money...the throttle is very responsive and the 0-60 runs are at least a few seconds quicker. It's still not a Superturbo...but it comes out of the hole and accelerates much stronger. Now she will even burp out a little cloud of black when you rev it up in neutral/park - never did that before.
3.9K Ohms is probably not the lowest value we can run since the idle is smooth when it's on. It became a little rough once the engine was fully warmed up and in neutral/park - but in gear...it's smooth as can be.
Have fun. I propose we call this the "Mersu Evry Mod" in honor of the guy who first disclosed this very similar mod for the VW TDI's.
...or we could call it the "tomnik mod".
RE: full load increase electronic governor - willbhere4u - 11-07-2010
videos please!
RE: full load increase electronic governor - E300TSC - 11-08-2010
Great job, Matt!
RE: full load increase electronic governor - HoleshotHolset - 11-08-2010
I did a little more testing on the way into work this AM.
The added resistance on the rack position feedback circuit definitely makes it a different beast to drive...in a good way.
I'd suggest for a more 'refined' experience that folks incorporate a microswitch on the TPS so that it engages at 75% or maybe 100% throttle...or maybe a Hobbs switch to engage above a certain boost pressure. I say this because if you leave the switch on while going down the highway - it runs a little rough if you let off the throttle at say 65 MPH and get back into it. The poor ECU is having a hard time figuring out what in the heck is going on. I like to have the switch on at stoplights - she comes out of the hole nicely with a little extra fuel. I don't think the added fuel is to the point where EGT's are hot or boost is too high...but I have no way of checking yet.
The rough idle never stopped me from leaving the switch on quite a bit on my TDIs...and won't stop me from doing the same on my Merc...but I wanted to relay the information for those wishing to do this on their own cars.
In the daylight, the puff of black smoke when you snap the throttle in neutral/park is pretty minimal. I need to find a way to 'improve' that.
What do you want a video of? It's not a tire shredding beast all of a sudden - just a little quicker.
Beers,
Matt
RE: full load increase electronic governor - Olivier - 11-08-2010
Thank you Matt for the picture with the 2 wires where to connect the reisitor, this is all good then
Well done.Have you think of the 4.3 reisitor? Might be better?
All the best.
Olivier
RE: full load increase electronic governor - gen3performance - 11-08-2010
This is a great thread! I just got done installing and testing a resistor in my 99 E300TD. Here is what I found.
When using a potentiometer, the lowest value I could go to was 3.1 ohms before the engine would start to rev up. I could actually rev the engine up with the pot at values below 3.1 ohms. It does make the car smoke alot more now too and does feel faster.
I then removed the potentiometer and installed a 3.9K resistor.
Keep in mind my car was already chipped before I installed the resistor so this does seem to increase the power above the 215hp level of the chip.
RE: full load increase electronic governor - E300TSC - 11-08-2010
Be careful if you're starting to generate smoke as you're likely to be exceeding safe fueling levels and extending the duration of injection too far which will cause excessive EGT's.
No problem if you can monitor with a set of gauges.
RE: full load increase electronic governor - gen3performance - 11-08-2010
Yes! I have only done a couple WOT runs since I do not have a pyro and I am not a fan of internal damage! These have only been for a couple seconds as well. Egt's can rise very quickly from what i have seen.
RE: full load increase electronic governor - gen3performance - 11-10-2010
Ok...maybe you guys can help explain this to me...
So I took the car to school yesterday with the 3.9k resistor installed and it was all good on the way to school. I drove like normal except with more throttle response.
However, on the way home it was acting really weird. It acted very sluggish and would barely rev over 3000 rpm when floored and was blowing black smoke like crazy and the engine light was on. I thought I blew the turbocharger off.
I then removed the resistor and the car acts normal again. How can a diesel blow smoke like crazy and not go anywhere when the turbocharger is working?
RE: full load increase electronic governor - E300TSC - 11-10-2010
How do you know the turbo's working?
RE: full load increase electronic governor - gen3performance - 11-10-2010
Is there any electronic control on the wastegate on thes 606's? I havent looked...
The car runs perfect now with the resistor removed. The only way I can figure a diesel to smoke alot and have very little power is no boost...like a computer controlled wastegate or something
RE: full load increase electronic governor - E300TSC - 11-11-2010
The wastegate works by vacuum. The ECU exerts full authority over boost via a vacuum modulator that works off of a PCM signal.
RE: full load increase electronic governor - gen3performance - 11-11-2010
I see! I just checked it out under the hood! That is probably the reason....time for a different charger!
RE: full load increase electronic governor - gen3performance - 11-14-2010
Just adding an update:
I removed the 3.9K resistor and made a resistor box and mounted it in the ashtray compartment.
The box consists of a 2.2K resistor, a 5k potentiometer, and a SPST toggle switch. All of these parts are wired in series and all were purchased at radioshack. I will get some pictures up shortly.
In addition, the idle speed is variable with engine temperature. For example: I previously stated that the lowest resistor should be a 3.1k ohm resistor otherwise the idle speed will increase. This is not true all the time. When the engine is cold, I can turn the potentiometer all the way down to 2.2K and the idle will not rise. However, when the engine is at operating temp, the idle will rise to about 1500 at 2.2k ohms.
The box does everything I want it to do. I can turn it on and off, I can adjust it with the potentiometer with safety (safety in the sense that I will never go below 2.2k ohms when its on), and I can adjust the idle to make the car lope at an idle! Sounds pretty gross!
Here's a picture of the wiring and the box I made. Forgive the crude schematic. Also the red and yellow wires can be switched around.
http://s776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/gen3performance/Resistor%20Box/
Just as a reminder, my car has a Speedtuning tune already so I'm not sure if this resistor box will work the same on a vehicle with a stock ECU.
As a side note...take precautions when doing testing or using resistors on this circuit. If the resitance goes too low the engine will rev up! (Possibility of overpowering of brakes and so on). And of course there is always the possibility of engine damage from high EGT and EGP...or maybe electronic damage.