+- STD (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std)
+-- Forum: Tuning (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Engine (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Thread: Super pump fuel supply and return (/showthread.php?tid=7385)
Super pump fuel supply and return - AlpinaM30B35 - 09-01-2016
The PT6466 8mm 606 is almost ready to find its new home in the 94 S124.
I am wondering how you guys have the fuel supply and return setup, I've seen people using the 044 with boost sensitive regulators 1bar base/3 bar at full boost.
Should the stock lift pump just be bypassed? Can it be left on the IP unhooked or do I need a block off plate?
Should I just use the stock 603 return line and fuel filter setup?
http://imgur.com/ZiWccgM
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - Hario' - 09-01-2016
I would think the lift pump would wear out quickly if left installed but without fuel flow.
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - AlpinaM30B35 - 09-01-2016
(09-01-2016, 12:16 PM)Hario I would think the lift pump would wear out quickly if left installed but without fuel flow.
That was my thought also
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - barrote - 09-01-2016
The lift pump has "non return valves" "archimedes type" it is possible to install the 044 in series with the lift pump, maintaining the stock fuel system.
But what u´re after(u need) is at least 1.5 bar in the pump main galery, first of all the return banjo must be swapped by a one rated for 1.5 bar, (stock is 400mb), and secondly to avoid cavitation, the fuel flow at the inlet must be at least 1.5 times the pumping ability of the pump, wich should be in the order of 250 lts /hour, more or less cc output, so a bypass system is a must.
basically a fuel delivery system should be built, the way u achieve that is up to u, the premisses are all stated above.
The lift pump if not in use should be removed and is place tappered.
good luck
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - AlpinaM30B35 - 09-01-2016
Ok so here's what I'm thinking
044 --> RRFPR set at 1.5bar at idle, boost referenced up to 3.5bar with a separate return back to the tank --> Injection pump --> 1.5 bar banjo on the return line connected to the stock injector/filter return
Does anyone sell a lift pump block off plate, and where can I find a 1.5bar banjo?
Thanks
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - barrote - 09-01-2016
i could sell u that , but given the distance i belive u can find it there a lot cheap though
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - erx - 09-01-2016
New dieselmeken pumps work on 1 bar all the time, older ones needed 3 bar on boost.
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - Mallinman - 09-01-2016
So all the new pumps will have enough fuel delivery using the standard lift pump??
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - AlpinaM30B35 - 09-01-2016
(09-01-2016, 03:40 PM)erx New dieselmeken pumps work on 1 bar all the time, older ones needed 3 bar on boost.
Ok I'll have to ask goran
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - erx - 09-01-2016
(09-01-2016, 03:47 PM)Mallinman So all the new pumps will have enough fuel delivery using the standard lift pump??
No, it needs high flow and many times more fuel than standard lift pump gives but just 1bar pressure.
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - Mallinman - 09-01-2016
(09-01-2016, 03:54 PM)erx(09-01-2016, 03:47 PM)Mallinman So all the new pumps will have enough fuel delivery using the standard lift pump??
No, it needs high flow and many times more fuel than standard lift pump gives but just 1bar pressure.
Thank you.
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - baldur - 09-01-2016
You can take the lift pump off and remove the cam follower if you want to disable it, then fit it back on the injection pump.
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - AlpinaM30B35 - 09-11-2016
Ok, Goran confirmed the pump only needs 1.5bar. Not boost referenced.
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - barrote - 09-11-2016
At 6k a 150cc superpump puts out throug injection elements about 27 liters/hour by cylinder.
Basically your fuel delivery system must be able to provide this amount plus a .5 factor maintaining 1.5 bar in the main gallery.
good luck
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - AlpinaM30B35 - 09-12-2016
Does anyone have a source for 1.5 bar return banjos in the U.S.?
Also, can I open up the passages in the stock filter housing to flow enough?
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - EvoPeter - 09-12-2016
(09-12-2016, 02:21 PM)AlpinaM30B35 Does anyone have a source for 1.5 bar return banjos in the U.S.?
Also, can I open up the passages in the stock filter housing to flow enough?
1-1,5bar banjos are all over eBay. Got mine today.
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - NZScott - 09-12-2016
Just stretch the spring, I stretched mine too far and it won't open now at all...engine still runs fine
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - AlpinaM30B35 - 09-12-2016
(09-12-2016, 05:17 PM)EvoPeter(09-12-2016, 02:21 PM)AlpinaM30B35 Does anyone have a source for 1.5 bar return banjos in the U.S.?
Also, can I open up the passages in the stock filter housing to flow enough?
1-1,5bar banjos are all over eBay. Got mine today.
Do you have a link? I don't see any
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - AlpinaM30B35 - 09-21-2016
Still looking for a 1.5bar banjo in the U.S.
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - Mallinman - 09-22-2016
If it's a dieselmeken rebuilt pump then it should be a m12 X 1.5 banjo.
Somet like this
http://m.ebay.com/itm/M12x1-5-BANJO-BOLT-M12-12MM-BANJO-FUEL-INLET-UNION-FOR-WEBER-DCOE-CARBS-MLR-BAT-/122143459767?nav=SEARCH
Somebody else should hopefully confirm this is the right one.
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - AlpinaM30B35 - 09-22-2016
Yeah but that's just a regular M12 banjo, I need one with an internal 1.5bar relief spring
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - EvoPeter - 09-22-2016
Bought this: https://dmt-automotive.com/en/overflow-valve-reference-1-417-413-012::1879.html
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - Volker407 - 09-22-2016
(09-12-2016, 02:21 PM)AlpinaM30B35 Does anyone have a source for 1.5 bar return banjos in the U.S.?
Also, can I open up the passages in the stock filter housing to flow enough?
Contact Forum member "Greazzer", he is in the US and he should have the banjo valve you need in stock.
It will not fit for the stock return line but I suppose you don´t want to stay with the tiny stock hoses....
Gruß
Volker
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - Hario' - 02-17-2017
(09-22-2016, 02:42 PM)EvoPeter Bought this: https://dmt-automotive.com/en/overflow-valve-reference-1-417-413-012::1879.html
Hey Mr. EvoPeter did the return banjo work?
Did it seem to have a bigger spring in it??
Beers, HH
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - EvoPeter - 02-17-2017
(02-17-2017, 12:01 PM)Hario(09-22-2016, 02:42 PM)EvoPeter Bought this: https://dmt-automotive.com/en/overflow-valve-reference-1-417-413-012::1879.html
Hey Mr. EvoPeter did the return banjo work?
Did it seem to have a bigger spring in it??
Beers, HH
Have not done a test run with it. Will be maybe another 2 months. Did just finish the new exhaust manifold and working the electrics for the Baldus ECU.
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - Hario' - 02-19-2017
For info I got stiffer lift pump spring from Tobulus on here and deleted stock filter etc arrangement, for 8mm ID all the way through, as per diagram.
I guess I will need to measure line pressure at the IM inlet to see if pressure drops off at high rpms and rack position...
![[Image: fuel%20systenm%20layout.jpg]](http://s1250.photobucket.com/user/Mercedes_Power/media/fuel%20systenm%20layout.jpg.html)
Also rebuilt the 603 lift pump with new Viton O-rings and it now drastically gives more pressure out when pumped by hand compared to pre-rebuild!
![[Image: lift%20pump.jpg]](http://s1250.photobucket.com/user/Mercedes_Power/media/lift%20pump.jpg.html)
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - AlanMcR - 02-19-2017
On the EDC pump the overflow valve wasn't holding any pressure. I opened it (destructive) to find that the plastic part had deformed and wasn't sealing the opening. Not having a spare part, I threaded a brass screw into the orifice and then drilled a 0.5mm passage into that. Worked great.
The way I see it, this improves the process of ejecting air bubbles when bleeding the system. It does change the way pressure is controlled in the IP plenum. Before the mod, the pressure is the lesser of the valve and the lift pump spring tension. After the mod, the pressure in the pump is controlled only by the lift pump spring tension.
As I understand it some of the rotary IPs are vented with an orifice, but I don't know which models in particular.
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - AlpinaM30B35 - 02-19-2017
Here is the setup I came up with
Bosch 044 feeds the regulator 1.5bar to injection pump, filter in and out are 6an all the way back to the tank (9.5mm ID) if the stock filter housing can't keep up its easily replaced with a bigger unit...but I liked the stock injector leak off routing for a clean look
http://m.imgur.com/bnLuvUh
http://m.imgur.com/sDcvSz5
http://m.imgur.com/yvndZKq
http://m.imgur.com/HLPQonl
http://m.imgur.com/xVlIk95
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - Mallinman - 02-19-2017
That's a really clean nice looking engine you've got there.
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - Hario' - 03-28-2017
(02-17-2017, 04:33 PM)EvoPeter(02-17-2017, 12:01 PM)Hario(09-22-2016, 02:42 PM)EvoPeter Bought this: https://dmt-automotive.com/en/overflow-valve-reference-1-417-413-012::1879.html
Hey Mr. EvoPeter did the return banjo work?
Did it seem to have a bigger spring in it??
Beers, HH
Have not done a test run with it. Will be maybe another 2 months. Did just finish the new exhaust manifold and working the electrics for the Baldus ECU.
For everyones info, that banjo is too short, need one that is 10mm longer than a standard banjo bolt to work in the 606EDC IP.
Not sure if that is possible so I will try and make an small threadded spacer / adapter for this banjo to work.
See the problem here
![[Image: IP%20return%20banjo.jpg]](http://s1250.photobucket.com/user/Mercedes_Power/media/IP%20return%20banjo.jpg.html)
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - Hario' - 03-28-2017
Need to make one of these for above banjo
![[Image: IP%20overflow%20banjo%20adapter_1.jpg]](http://s1250.photobucket.com/user/Mercedes_Power/media/IP%20overflow%20banjo%20adapter_1.jpg.html)
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - maxypriest - 03-28-2017
Just to make things more complicated…
My set up is an older twin entry DM 8.00mm pump, fuel supplied by a Holley Black from under the tank.
It’s a bit noisy, however pumps 456ltr/hr at 9psi, 14 psi max. The return banjo bolt is original. Stock lines.
If you turn the pump up it will smoke to the limiter
Peak power is 450 @ 5300 with a HX40Super at 3 bar boost and to be honest the last thing the car needs is more power.
I often wonder what a higher pressure fuel pump would achieve?
Would it make a difference?
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - barrote - 03-31-2017
The supply issue discussed here, is a nonsense, the lift pump will never be able to deliver enough supply to a modded pump and when i say modded, i´m talking about over 120cc.
It might not be a nonsense for those who use standard pumps, wich along with the placebo effect a modded lift pump may increase main gallery pressure, and therefore promote better element cylinder fill, consenquently the injection will be a litle improved, same as for the return pressure regulated banjo bolt, (stock bolts are 400Mb) but using a 1500Mb may improve or not , remember that is the Spring in the lift pump that do the pumping. changing the Spring to a harder one will improve in the same sense as above.
For the superpumps fella´s at full rack and turning at 2K most 150cc pumps need some 120lts/h at 1000Mb in the main gallery, (after filter and other restrictions on the system) otherwise the element fill may be unproportional and even lack unbalange the engine by half. (one cylinder at 150 other at 130) of course that will not be noticed at first glance.
Yesterday i modded a M EDC with 8mm , when turning at 3k in the bench it puts out some 200cc , but this is only possible with inlet pressure of 1.5 bar, if i change inlet pressure to .5 bar guess ? 150 to 170 and very unbalanced injection due to filling issues.
I´m sorry about how harsh i´ve wrote but , one thing is stock pumps and a search of a better engine, the other completely diff is the superpumps, which need a dedicated fuel supply system, how u build it is up to owner , in any case a electric fuel suply pump is the best solution.
regards
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - AlpinaM30B35 - 04-04-2017
(03-28-2017, 08:50 AM)maxypriest Just to make things more complicated…Are you running the stock fuel filter?
My set up is an older twin entry DM 8.00mm pump, fuel supplied by a Holley Black from under the tank.
It’s a bit noisy, however pumps 456ltr/hr at 9psi, 14 psi max. The return banjo bolt is original. Stock lines.
If you turn the pump up it will smoke to the limiter
Peak power is 450 @ 5300 with a HX40Super at 3 bar boost and to be honest the last thing the car needs is more power.
I often wonder what a higher pressure fuel pump would achieve?
Would it make a difference?
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - mike89011 - 04-04-2017
Can someone clarify, do most people just replace the standard lift pump with a plate? Anything more special than that?
Also, does the OM603 fuel filter work with the higher pressure/flow needed with a superpump? Or is there a more preferred filter?
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - maxypriest - 04-05-2017
(04-04-2017, 07:05 PM)AlpinaM30B35No I’m not.(03-28-2017, 08:50 AM)maxypriest Just to make things more complicated…Are you running the stock fuel filter?
My set up is an older twin entry DM 8.00mm pump, fuel supplied by a Holley Black from under the tank.
It’s a bit noisy, however pumps 456ltr/hr at 9psi, 14 psi max. The return banjo bolt is original. Stock lines.
If you turn the pump up it will smoke to the limiter
Peak power is 450 @ 5300 with a HX40Super at 3 bar boost and to be honest the last thing the car needs is more power.
I often wonder what a higher pressure fuel pump would achieve?
Would it make a difference?
I’m running a twin Simms filter head with a pair of Delphi 296 filters and 8.00mm ports.
The fuel pump supplies the filter-head inlet port and that splits off in to 2 galleries that supply the 2 filters in parallel.
One port from one filter goes to one end of the injection pump and the other port supplies the other end, thus the pump has 2 x 8.00mm feeds.
Barrote, I hear what you are saying. To be honest I’m hoping that the twin port set up is helping with the element fill quality asthere is plenty of fuel, its just the pressure I’m sure will be about the 10psi mark at a guess. (Why is this writing on bold?!)
I have never measured the pressure at the pump end – really should.
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - AlpinaM30B35 - 04-05-2017
(04-05-2017, 07:48 AM)maxypriest(04-04-2017, 07:05 PM)AlpinaM30B35No I’m not.(03-28-2017, 08:50 AM)maxypriest Just to make things more complicated…Are you running the stock fuel filter?
My set up is an older twin entry DM 8.00mm pump, fuel supplied by a Holley Black from under the tank.
It’s a bit noisy, however pumps 456ltr/hr at 9psi, 14 psi max. The return banjo bolt is original. Stock lines.
If you turn the pump up it will smoke to the limiter
Peak power is 450 @ 5300 with a HX40Super at 3 bar boost and to be honest the last thing the car needs is more power.
I often wonder what a higher pressure fuel pump would achieve?
Would it make a difference?
I’m running a twin Simms filter head with a pair of Delphi 296 filters and 8.00mm ports.
The fuel pump supplies the filter-head inlet port and that splits off in to 2 galleries that supply the 2 filters in parallel.
One port from one filter goes to one end of the injection pump and the other port supplies the other end, thus the pump has 2 x 8.00mm feeds.
Barrote, I hear what you are saying. To be honest I’m hoping that the twin port set up is helping with the element fill quality asthere is plenty of fuel, its just the pressure I’m sure will be about the 10psi mark at a guess. (Why is this writing on bold?!)
I have never measured the pressure at the pump end – really should.
How do you have your return line/injector leak off plumbed? Let's see some pictures of this beast!
RE: Super pump fuel supply and return - Fishman - 04-06-2017
I'm using someting like this on my return line:
![[Image: imag1146_zpsmtjwxark.jpg]](http://s1324.photobucket.com/user/Iepe_Visser/media/imag1146_zpsmtjwxark.jpg.html)
(04-05-2017, 11:56 AM)AlpinaM30B35(04-05-2017, 07:48 AM)maxypriest(04-04-2017, 07:05 PM)AlpinaM30B35 Are you running the stock fuel filter?No I’m not.
I’m running a twin Simms filter head with a pair of Delphi 296 filters and 8.00mm ports.
The fuel pump supplies the filter-head inlet port and that splits off in to 2 galleries that supply the 2 filters in parallel.
One port from one filter goes to one end of the injection pump and the other port supplies the other end, thus the pump has 2 x 8.00mm feeds.
Barrote, I hear what you are saying. To be honest I’m hoping that the twin port set up is helping with the element fill quality asthere is plenty of fuel, its just the pressure I’m sure will be about the 10psi mark at a guess. (Why is this writing on bold?!)
I have never measured the pressure at the pump end – really should.
How do you have your return line/injector leak off plumbed? Let's see some pictures of this beast!