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+--- Thread: Holset crap with ball bearings (/showthread.php?tid=7715)
Holset crap with ball bearings - barrote - 04-27-2017
Hello fine people,
Come to the conclusion that this holset crap HX35W is a very fine turbo in my project, but it takes a lot to come alive(3/4 sec) i wonder if it can be fitted with a ball bearing system?
questions have anyone went that road?
where can i find the ball bearing kit needed?
The idea is to have it with a billet wheel lightened up shaft and turbine , and the ball bearing
regards
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - Turbo - 04-28-2017
garret has some ball berings turbo as you know if holset has I am not sure of but this firm clam they do upgrades
http://www.turbodynamics.co.uk/services/turbo-upgrades/
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - hooblah - 04-28-2017
Might be worth swapping in a he351.
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - barrote - 04-28-2017
What is a he351? That crap is not common where i live....except in trucks i mean heavy and slow engines.
I wonder if i could upgrade that with a ball bearing journal , that thing would be super fast to spool...
I think...
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - hooblah - 04-28-2017
He351 is the next gen, equivalent to a hx35 but with improved performance.
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - Turbo - 04-28-2017
I call them today
http://www.turbodynamics.co.uk/services/turbo-upgrades/
and I will say it is a no go
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - barrote - 04-28-2017
No go why , they don't sell the bearings? Whats the problem off installing such a bearing ?? At least for me the problem is to lay my hands on the cartdrige rollers...
After some cutting, it should be possible. Unless the bearing does not hold ...
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - awsrock - 04-28-2017
Not ball bearing, but if you end up scrapping the HX35, the BW s200s are cheap and have good turbines, and choice of compressor sizes, 46-56 mm
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - Turbo - 04-28-2017
(04-28-2017, 12:22 PM)barrote No go why , they don't sell the bearings? Whats the problem off installing such a bearing ?? At least for me the problem is to lay my hands on the cartdrige rollers...
After some cutting, it should be possible. Unless the bearing does not hold ...
they said most problem was the middle section was not mad for it and they made most for old turbos before GT, there are many different size in ball bearing cartridges, I saw garret show them some years ago, most irritating regarding big frame VNT with ball bearing turbos is that they do exist but tracking them down is hard but gets more and more common...
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - barrote - 04-29-2017
Yep, garret only sell VNT to OEM.
Volvo trucks and scania use those but those turbo's can't work in our engines... too big they need a massive amount of exaust to wake.
Nevertheless, fitting a ball bearing cartdrige in a gt23V series can be done. The core has enough space to cut a 20mm bushing at least...
The holsets have even more space available...
My problem now is buying the cartdrige... if it holds is another matter!!!
Do u happen to know where i can buy this things? Even if they are chinese or india made....
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - Simpler=Better - 04-29-2017
(04-29-2017, 02:57 AM)barrote Yep, garret only sell VNT to OEM.
Volvo trucks and scania use those but those turbo's can't work in our engines... too big they need a massive amount of exaust to wake.
Nevertheless, fitting a ball bearing cartdrige in a gt23V series can be done. The core has enough space to cut a 20mm bushing at least...
The holsets have even more space available...
My problem now is buying the cartdrige... if it holds is another matter!!!
Do u happen to know where i can buy this things? Even if they are chinese or india made....
If you're willing to jump through hoops you can buy literally anything on alibaba
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - barrote - 04-29-2017
italian or german made would be better but... in the absence ...
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - Hario' - 04-29-2017
Buy generic 150k rpm bearings and machine the CHRA either end, then figure out how the seal fits and machine the CHRA to fit that.
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - baldur - 04-29-2017
In my opinion ball bearings are best left to racing turbos because I don't see one lasting several hundred thousand km like a journal bearing turbo will do if kept in safe operating conditions.
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - Turbo - 04-29-2017
well in -"MAN D26 Two Stage development, heavy duty
commercial engines optimized with respect on
low fuel consumption and emissions"
it say -"The most obvious difference is the lifetime target of 1.500.000 km for the
whole system. In Euro VI the emission stability for 700.000 km became
part of the legal requirements."
garrett have ball bearing in some truck turbocharger, and start to show it in 2014 just look at there home page, ball bearing cartridge from small to reasonably gig turbos like GT50, and the state ofthe art turbo that is in production now, we speak 64% respective 63% stage efficiency of low and high stage, that is at least for me very impressive
Even some stage turbo charging on car come in ball bearing version now
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - R-3350 - 04-30-2017
i just did some looking and it seems the only real issue with swapping a ball bearing into the chra of a holset is the holsets tend to run much bigger shaft sizes than garretts or other oem bb turbos. the HX35 main shaft is around 11mm while a gt35 is closer to 8mm. finding a bearing that will take the rpm of a turbo is difficult your best bet may be to machine the chra and shaft to fit a replacement bearing from a garrett unit rebuild kit.
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - barrote - 05-01-2017
Yep i see your point . Machining a turbine shaft is never a easy task but it can be done.
Using a 8mm rapair kit from garret is very good option... but question remains where to buy it....
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - Turbo - 05-01-2017
if you look 1:34 in this video you can see ball bearing cartridge different size up to gt50, and some you can even see numbers on.
https://turbo.honeywell.com/whats-new-in-turbo/video/medium-duty-and-ball-bearing/
but the play bewtween turbin shaft and bearing need to be absolute right, I once did make a turbine to a small air craft model, it get lose in 80000RPM, I almost shit my pants... But where to find bigger ball bearing cartridges is do not know for the moment...
why do you just buy a GTB3576klnrv that has ball baring original and VNT as well, the biger vertion is 53 or 54mm indusor If I am not mistaken.
There was/is a guy on ebay that use to sell these ones for about 1300 euro but that was the 50mm version, the bigger version was made in mexico or why just not go to a R2s turbo or garrets equivalent, if it come from a truck it can normally boost quite a lot
I have one R2s turbo at home LP turbo can do 55lb/min and pr 4 70% efficiency, same compressor is used in cummins upgrade to 400whp , small turbo is 41mm indusor size, K24, rotating inertia is way more then a turbo from a om613 though, weight of both turbos is about 26kg so not a light one, will fit in a mercedes 320 cdi by at least 10mm to spare but air box need to go... the compressor wheel can be upgraded to one that do 72lb/min pr 4,4, but surge line will change quite a lot to the right in the map... only one waste gate(by pass K24 turbo) will start to open at 2 bar and is fully open at 3 bars air pressure that is the original setting, remind it is prenumatic controlled not direct boost controlled in original transfiguration.
garrets newest r2s equivalent to borg warner for passenger cars has some applications with ball bearing cartridges, though it would be nice to get one that has VNT on HP stage like that can be found in newer BMW 535D but it is a little bit to small for me and has stupid exhaust manifold integrated, and I do not think we will see a HP turbo with vnt it in a truck since it has less narrow operation envelop then a car engine and twin scroll sims more like a melody there since we have more pulsation. Garrett has also made double two stage with double VNT, though it is GT12/GT20 so it is quite small so up to about 200kw. But if you want to fancy use the R3S turbo, but it get me headache to think about set up of for controlling them.
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - barrote - 05-01-2017
But u see, i'm quite happy with my set up...
GT23V and the crap HX35as LP. For the 605D25
During next month i plan to test the system in my new engine the 605D29
, it shoud blow a lot better due to increased engine size.Of course if i could improve the turbomachinery with ball bearings why not...
At the moment i'm still fighting to get the 3 bar on gauge at same EGP. 1/1 ratio. Something i belive would be achieved easier with the ball bearings.
Lets see how it ends up. But anyway the HX crap has a very heavy rotating mass.
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - Turbo - 05-01-2017
When you say -"crap HX35W" it does not sound for me that you are so satisfied
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - Turbo - 05-01-2017
When you say -"crap HX35W" it does not sound for me that you are so satisfied
but interesting project you have there
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - barrote - 05-01-2017
I call it crap cause compared to a similar size garret its scrap. Weather comparing eficiency and response. Thing is it cost 150€ and a gt35 series would had cost 500€ even in the junk yard.
Of course if i had the money i would buy kkkEFR series or GTX series.
RE: Holset crap with ball bearings - barrote - 05-01-2017
I call it crap cause compared to a similar size garret its scrap. Weather comparing eficiency and response. Thing is it cost 150€ and a gt35 series would had cost 500€ even in the junk yard.
Of course if i had the money i would buy kkkEFR series or GTX series.
Crap cause it will last 20 years with abuse....
But it does the job..... eventually ....