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+--- Thread: My first 606, where to start? (/showthread.php?tid=7734)
My first 606, where to start? - LastPhoenix - 05-08-2017
Hello guys!
Although a year later and quite differently than I first thought (originally I wanted to get a w123), I acquired an om 606 attached to a quite nice w140 (I can post some pictures if anyone is interested)
For the first time in my life I bought a car just for me (well, in my adult life at least), but definitely a first time when I plan to make some more serious modifications to the car, other than stage 1 ECU remaps.
There is a lot of information on these forums, but for a newcomer it is a bit overwhelming and I was hoping I could get more detailed, maybe even step by step information on what to do next.
Unfortunately I don't have the budget to do all at once so I had to split this project in 3 bigger steps:
1. My first goal is to update the engine to hit sub 300 BHP (I understand that the stock pump can manage this much power?) Would a turbo upgrade be enough for this first stage? It seems that the turbo may be on the way out anyway.
2. I plan to address paintwork and interior.
3. And finally I would like to work on the magic 500 BHP number. I have been looking at this kit, but I wanted to clarify is this a good kit and is it a good value? Is it realistic to see 29mpg with a set up like this? (In normal cruising mode of course, I don't live in fairy tale land) What else besides parts in this kit would be needed (except the obvious, like brake upgrades and pump upgrade).
Also, not to clutter the forum I wanted to ask few additional questions:
1. What should I definitely check out on my next trip to service?
2. I know that the previous owner had some power delivery problems with the car and that he had done some remap work after which he didn't feel any difference (power vise) at all. My mechanic (thanks to whom I actually bought this car) did some adjustments to the pump after which the car did run better, its a long story this
. To make a long story short it does seem that the car is slow, compared even to passat b6 with stage 1 ECU remap, but I didn't expect it to be fast, I know that the official 0-60 for w140 is around 11.6 seconds. That being said I would like to better understand this motor and what to check in order for it to run like it should. It could be that at the moment everything is ok, unfortunately I don't have another w140 3.0 turbo diesel to compare mine to.
RE: My first 606, where to start? - awsrock - 05-08-2017
Well, you are in kind of a predicament there because a turbo for 300 and less hp and one for 500 are not going to be the same. Some say the stock pump is capable of 300hp in theory, but I have not seen any actual numbers from people on that one, so I'd say at the least you can expect 250-260. I did see a 605 on here that had a 93cc and made 255 hp, which is about what the 606 pump makes when turned up so you can at least look forward to that. It is also said that the stock turbo can flow enough air for 220 hp but the turbine housing is very small, so you would be making a lot of backpressure.
I don't know anything in regards to having over 250 or so hp at the moment, so my knoweledge basically ends there. I am running a turbo that is probably capable of 350 hp with only around 230-250 actual hp and I can say that I would not recommend getting anything bigger than that if you are just going to stay in "stage 1" for a while, especially with that heavy car (I have a w126 so we are kind of in the same boat) (compressor is 54mm btw)
Those kits are good but in my opinion pretty overpriced. It really depends on how much convenience you want and what kind of fabrication skills you have. You can get an s200 turbo new for around $550 US, plus flange and wastegate and adapter for another $200?
I saw your other post and if I were given the choice, I would get the turbobandit manifold and an s200 turbo, that way you already have the t4 flange on the manifold and the wastegate tube attached which saves some headache. Just make sure that manifold will fit a w140 if you do decide to go that route, nothing worse than spending big $$ and finding out something does not fit. They probably make it to spec but the website makes it seem they are just sitting there in stock ready to go.
You'll also need to make an exhaust at some point. Maybe not for your first set up but beyond that you will.
RE: My first 606, where to start? - hooblah - 05-08-2017
Dude if you're after a manifold pm mr robs on here. He's selling one which was made by ftune but did not fit his w124. It may fit your w140 though.
RE: My first 606, where to start? - LastPhoenix - 05-09-2017
(05-08-2017, 05:43 PM)awsrock Well, you are in kind of a predicament there because a turbo for 300 and less hp and one for 500 are not going to be the same. Some say the stock pump is capable of 300hp in theory, but I have not seen any actual numbers from people on that one, so I'd say at the least you can expect 250-260. I did see a 605 on here that had a 93cc and made 255 hp, which is about what the 606 pump makes when turned up so you can at least look forward to that. It is also said that the stock turbo can flow enough air for 220 hp but the turbine housing is very small, so you would be making a lot of backpressure.
I don't know anything in regards to having over 250 or so hp at the moment, so my knoweledge basically ends there. I am running a turbo that is probably capable of 350 hp with only around 230-250 actual hp and I can say that I would not recommend getting anything bigger than that if you are just going to stay in "stage 1" for a while, especially with that heavy car (I have a w126 so we are kind of in the same boat) (compressor is 54mm btw)
Those kits are good but in my opinion pretty overpriced. It really depends on how much convenience you want and what kind of fabrication skills you have. You can get an s200 turbo new for around $550 US, plus flange and wastegate and adapter for another $200?
I saw your other post and if I were given the choice, I would get the turbobandit manifold and an s200 turbo, that way you already have the t4 flange on the manifold and the wastegate tube attached which saves some headache. Just make sure that manifold will fit a w140 if you do decide to go that route, nothing worse than spending big $$ and finding out something does not fit. They probably make it to spec but the website makes it seem they are just sitting there in stock ready to go.
You'll also need to make an exhaust at some point. Maybe not for your first set up but beyond that you will.
Thanks for the info, couple of things I wanted to clarify (sorry for the noob questions below):
- Can't I just purchase the 500 hp turbo and "downtune' it till I get all the other parts later this year? (Next purchase would probably be the pump)
- What did you mean by 93cc?
- I don't plan to stay in stage 1 for too long I think till the end of this year I could be able to afford rest of the necessary parts. What did you mean by 54mm compressor?
- Unfortunately I don't have any fabrication skills, I will have to pay for all of the installation work as well. Is it just s200 turbo? Or does it have a brand? Would this s200 turbo be good for 300hp or 500hp? Would you recommend buying turbo from ebay or should I better stick with turbo bandit or dieselpumpuk?
- How about gearbox will the stock gearbox (5 speed auto) be able to handle all this power?
RE: My first 606, where to start? - LastPhoenix - 05-09-2017
(05-08-2017, 06:16 PM)hooblah Dude if you're after a manifold pm mr robs on here. He's selling one which was made by ftune but did not fit his w124. It may fit your w140 though.
I actually couldn't find a user with name mr robs on this board
RE: My first 606, where to start? - hooblah - 05-09-2017
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/showthread.php?tid=6272&page=2
RE: My first 606, where to start? - awsrock - 05-09-2017
Thanks for the info, couple of things I wanted to clarify (sorry for the noob questions below):
- Can't I just purchase the 500 hp turbo and "downtune' it till I get all the other parts later this year? (Next purchase would probably be the pump)
- Not really. You could get a turbo that would support 500hp but it would be pretty disappointing to drive until you had the pump upgraded to make the power.
- What did you mean by 93cc?
- That is the rating of the fuel pump. The stock 606 is set around 64cc. For 500hp you will need....I don't really know, 160cc or more
- I don't plan to stay in stage 1 for too long I think till the end of this year I could be able to afford rest of the necessary parts. What did you mean by 54mm compressor?
- That is the size of the compressor inducer, where the air goes in on the turbo
https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/wheel_trim
- Unfortunately I don't have any fabrication skills, I will have to pay for all of the installation work as well. Is it just s200 turbo? Or does it have a brand? Would this s200 turbo be good for 300hp or 500hp? Would you recommend buying turbo from ebay or should I better stick with turbo bandit or dieselpumpuk?
- s200sx turbo is made by Borg Warner. If you go that route, ebay has plenty and as of now there are no chinese clones so they are all real turbos. But make sure it is sx or sx-e, there ARE clones of the industrial s200 models. You'll know because they are all like $300 or less and have no markings.
Turbobandit's turbos seems to be fair priced but most of them are pretty huge, although maybe for 500hp that is what you will need. DPUK is just selling stock s200sx models as far as I know.
- How about gearbox will the stock gearbox (5 speed auto) be able to handle all this power?
- Can't help you with that one, I have a 4 speed auto. I want to say for 500hp you may need some upgrades but it depends on what model of the 722.6 you have, overall they are very strong.
RE: My first 606, where to start? - barrote - 05-09-2017
500hp hum, hum, hum
Start thinking of 400!!!
500 is pretty much off score if one is not deep into diesel tunning.
Despite u see videos with those numbers and people claim they have it... every dino is a dino and they show whatever costumer wants to see.
And a single turbo most probably won't reach there! But all is about where u want the power band.
And in first place, the Injection Pump is the first item to buy. A superpump can be dwn graded for stock power.
Sometimes i build pumps but my pumps with 170cc never reached more than 420hp. So i suggest u contact a builder that can promisse that.
Turbo is after and some other mod's . When u really want to pursue the 400 plus.
One thing is true, the stock turbo u can trash it right away it is too small for anything.
Sorry if i'm beeing to straightforward.... but reality is grey not in color.
Wish u good luck with your build.
RE: My first 606, where to start? - starynovy - 05-10-2017
Well with no fab skill and no knowledge I thing you have to be pretty rich or forget it.
And nope. Stock gear box on 300TD is weak shit, you would need at least box from 320CDI (or strenghtened yours) with custom controller. Just to be clear, having 500ish HP working OM606 build/bought will come at some 7-10 000€.
RE: My first 606, where to start? - JoeB - 05-13-2017
Take a big step back and just consider for one minute what you have.
1. a W140 - which is a huge behemoth
2. a pissweak OM606 - if your statements about performance are anything to go by.
Now consider what your intended purpose will be for the vehicle.
1. Is it a daily driver? Fuel economy a consideration? Noise? Smoke? Maintenance?
2. Or is it a weekend cruiser - don't care about noise, economy, smoke, TüV compliance etc.
Now consider this:
Your vehicle is already in need of a great deal of maintenance - this much is apparent simply from the original statements you made regarding performance and your 'mechanic' making adjustments.
Do yourself a favour and get yourself the FACTORY w140 Service manual on CD. read every section - because a w140 is very very easy to damage and prohibitively expensive to effect repairs on.
Now.
First maintenance:
Transmission - pull it out, rebuild it. or swap it for an E320CDI. whichever is cheaper. standalone controller would be better, but electronics in w140's are a pita.
IP - pull it out. send it to Goran and have it overhauled with 7.5mm elements. DSL controller.
Exhaust, turbo - HX35VE. Have a good manifold fabricated, and a good free flowing ceramic coated dump pipe.
New intercooler piping and larger intercooler.
There's easily 10-15K Euro in doing all of the above PROPERLY. Especially as you mentioned not having the skillset to do the work yourself, AND because the vehicle is a w140.
You'll find that you need a lot of basic parts replaced to make it reliable - engine mounts, trans mount, tailshaft couplings, water pump, thermostat housing, temp senders, timing chain & sprockets, IP sprocket / bolt, harmonic balancer & bolt.... this is all the basic stuff that needs to be inspected thoroughly to ensure it is going to be reliable.
So many people come into these projects all wide-eyed, thinking that all this performance is cheap - when the actual reality is, that it was probably cheaper to buy an S600 and pray that you didn't have a biodegradeable wiring harness.
No w140 is a cheap car to run. Sure, they are an S-class luxury, but holy crap are they expensive as fuck to fix when stuff breaks.
We send them to the scrapyard down here, because noone wants them for this very reason.
Nonetheless, I support your enthusiasm - but give you fair warning that a reliable 300bhp in a w140 is going to be expensive, and 500 bhp is just dreaming, unless you have unlimited finances.
