+- STD (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std)
+-- Forum: Tuning (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=6)
+--- Forum: Engine (https://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/forumdisplay.php?fid=7)
+--- Thread: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 (/showthread.php?tid=7863)
No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - repower - 09-11-2017
Hello nice guys,
I am Rolf from Hamburg - Germany. I own two w210 300td station, one Daily (350tkm) one for STD (163tkm).
I like to know if there is a method to test the rack travel of an EDC pump on the OM606.
Maybe with a digital multimeter or an oscilloscopes.
The specs:
Om606 with original exhaust manifold with adapter to HY35 with 9cm exhaust turbine.
3 "exhaust pipe straight through with simons silencer.
DPUK EDC Pump with 7.5 mm elements.
State 2 ECU from seanyt for HX35 with 7.5 pump
Bosch 044 with FBR (with return) between 044 and filter, constant 1.5 bar fuel pressure in the pump.
No MAF, stock MAP sensor, IAT in IC pipe as stock, I currently use the stock IC and piping.
The Problem:
I get 15 - 20 psi ( at 150kmh) boost pressure from the turbo at maximum (raises very slowly) with wastegate blocked.
I have less power than stock, only till 60kmh I can feel a good difference to before - but over 60 -80 kmh
accelerating is really slow, can push the throttle down with almost no effekt. And no smoke to see...
From 100 kmh - 140 kmh power is less than stock. And no smoke.
Just a little cloud when pushing the throttle hard in idle, or under 60 kmh.
I tried everything I know and learned here, but it seems I have a lack of Fuel.
EGT seems also pretty low - 600 -800 F max. I have no EPC lights on or limp mode.
Is there a way to check whether the EDC Pump is working propertly, without contacting a Diesel Pump Shop
I changed seans stage 2 ECU to the completly stock car, just to see what happend.
It is pulling really strong, not compareable as before. What a surprise with only changing the ECU!!!
I also disconnect on this car the MAF - no differences - no need for MAF on stage 2 ECU.
So I think the ECU-Map should be okay, but maybe something with the pump.
Thats the reason for my question maybe someone has an idea before I go the long way of try and error.
(changing criss cross the pump, turbo a.s.o.)
Greetings Rolf
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - firen456 - 09-11-2017
Hi,
came a calibration-sheet with your pump? Maybe the IQ is set wrong to the feedback voltage...
We have a german whatsapp-group. If you wanna join, let me know via pm.
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - ecFSE - 09-11-2017
Have you tried to change the map sensor?
Mine was very weak with broken map sensor.
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - repower - 09-11-2017
okay, I have not considered this until now.
The MAP sensor could be broken or weak, this would of course be the most supple solution. I will change them wednesday.
I also had the impression that my Daily was more powerful compared to the original w210 I set up now.
-
unfortunately, accidentally dpuk has not sent a list with the pump. but I know the basic data.
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - repower - 09-20-2017
Hello,
I checked the MAP sensor, put the suspected one from the STD into my Daily, works fine!
Checked the wires from MAP to ECU, also ok.
I connect a hand pressure pump to the MAP sensor to simulate Boost to the ECU, I tried different
pressure between 0 and 1.6 bar to the sensor while driving, also disconnect it - no changes at all.
The ECU from sean is okay, it works perfectly when connectet in my stock Daily, when I disconnect
the Map sensor there, immediately I feel the difference - the car than is very weak above 60 kmh
like in the STD. Same behaviour!
So, it seems the signal from the MAP don't get processed.
I appreciate every further ideas before I pull the pump again...
rolf
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - seanyt - 09-20-2017
Check pins 6,45,22 on the edc connector.
6 is GND, 45 is +5v and 22 is the map sensor signal return.
When you open the ecu connector in tiny writing is the pin numbers.
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - baldur - 09-20-2017
Also check that the MAP sensor is actually seeing the pressure, the symptoms you are describing can be had with a clogged or disconnected hose to the MAP sensor.
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - repower - 09-20-2017
(09-20-2017, 07:31 AM)baldur Also check that the MAP sensor is actually seeing the pressure, the symptoms you are describing can be had with a clogged or disconnected hose to the MAP sensor.
I did! The MAP sensor is ok. I swap it to my stock w210 as describted before and there it´s working fine.
No glogged hose. I fool the MAP sensor by connecting a hose to the sensor and lead the hose into the car and give different pressure on it while driving.
Maybe I am wrong but my thoughts were, if the sensor receives pressure around 1.0 - 1.4 bar the ECU should compare the fuel thats needed and send this info to the pump for more rack movement (tested with different speeds). At least I expected some smoke sometimes, but nothing.
- sean
I checked the pins: 6 is GND, 45 is +5v and 22 is 4,95v with ignition on.
Is there a way to check whether the IP pump is getting the right signals?
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - firen456 - 09-20-2017
22 should be around 1.8V at athmospheric pressure... Maybe this wire has contact to the wire from pin 45. You are sure you measured it with the Map-sensor plugged in?
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - repower - 09-21-2017
(09-20-2017, 02:47 PM)firen456 22 should be around 1.8V at athmospheric pressure... Maybe this wire has contact to the wire from pin 45. You are sure you measured it with the Map-sensor plugged in?
I will check it again today, also during the ride I will examine how the MAP works. will then make a report...
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - repower - 09-23-2017
Hello again,
the MAP sensor was broken. I exchanged it for a tested one.
The car drives better, but far from what I call an STD.
I now have an EPC light on. This happened the first time after I disconnected the fuel cut-off valve
because of the 044 Bosch Pumpe. My fuel line goes from the FPR to Filter and then directly into the pump.
Because of the EPC light, I reconnected the Fuel shut off valve, but the EPC light stays on now.
Also disconnecting the battery for a while did not work.
The scenario could be, first the MAP was broken, thats fixed.
And now the car is in limp mode. So no way for full power.
But what do I do now with this f**k EPC light. (monday I could read out the codes)
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - repower - 09-30-2017
here an update.
If the engine is shut off, the SOV on an EDC-Pump is switching to vaccum at the fuel inlet of the pump if using the original fuel system. Excactly it is switching fuel streams.
If the system is under pressure or the SOV is not in use the engine will run 1-2sec further after shut off, as in my case with the bosch 044. The ECU regoniced that the engine runs further and throws a EPC light and engine goes in limp mode.
I fix that by shuting off my Bosch 044 before I shut off the engine. Otherwise I flash the EPC Light with a cheap OPD2 dongel.
Still I don´t have the power I expectet with 7.5 and HY35
Still I believe there is not enought fuel, boost starts at 1700rpm and goes to 10PSI.
I hear the Turbo starts whiseling and than it stops, boost is building up pretty fast till this 10-12 psi. After this, the car drives as stock, boost is slowly creeping to max 15 psi. Wastegate is set at 24 psi.
And No, there are no air leaks at the pressure side.
I also read in this forum, that some don´t get the om606 running well with the HY35.
I will go now to an Mercedes Benz Specialist and let check the IP-pump parameters with Stardiagnosis.
....let you know
rolf
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - repower - 07-15-2018
after all the solution
the culprit was the SOV. Limp mode without warning light. Flashing the EPC brings no solution.
Going back to the original Fuel delivery system with a lowpressure electic fuelpump between tank
and SOV solve any problems. Almost 20.000km now with this setup.
Had to buy stardiagnose to come to this.
CASE CLOSED
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - frans-c - 07-22-2018
(07-15-2018, 02:24 AM)repower after all the solution
the culprit was the SOV. Limp mode without warning light. Flashing the EPC brings no solution.
Going back to the original Fuel delivery system with a lowpressure electic fuelpump between tank
and SOV solve any problems. Almost 20.000km now with this setup.
Had to buy stardiagnose to come to this.
CASE CLOSED
The problem with using an electric fuel pump with the stock EDC system, is - as you've mentioned - the shut-off valve. I'm also currently running a stock EDC pump, but with a Bosch electric pump. As you've also mentioned, the ECU monitors the SOV when shutting off the engine. If the engine rpm doesn't drop by 500 rpm in 0.5 seconds, the ECU puts the engine in a permanent limp mode, which can only be cleared with a diagnostics.
I can't remember how I discovered it, but I fool the ECU by prodding the accelerator pedal quickly to about 2000 rpm and then shutting off the engine as the engine speed drops. I've been driving like this for almost a year now, and I've never had an engine-limp mode since.
Just an FYI.
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - Ecto - 07-23-2018
(07-22-2018, 03:10 PM)frans-c(07-15-2018, 02:24 AM)repower after all the solution
the culprit was the SOV. Limp mode without warning light. Flashing the EPC brings no solution.
Going back to the original Fuel delivery system with a lowpressure electic fuelpump between tank
and SOV solve any problems. Almost 20.000km now with this setup.
Had to buy stardiagnose to come to this.
CASE CLOSED
The problem with using an electric fuel pump with the stock EDC system, is - as you've mentioned - the shut-off valve. I'm also currently running a stock EDC pump, but with a Bosch electric pump. As you've also mentioned, the ECU monitors the SOV when shutting off the engine. If the engine rpm doesn't drop by 500 rpm in 0.5 seconds, the ECU puts the engine in a permanent limp mode, which can only be cleared with a diagnostics.
I can't remember how I discovered it, but I fool the ECU by prodding the accelerator pedal quickly to about 2000 rpm and then shutting off the engine as the engine speed drops. I've been driving like this for almost a year now, and I've never had an engine-limp mode since.
Just an FYI.
Is your SOV still in place with the Bosch pump or have you replaced it by an adapter to get direct in the IP?
Have you ever try to remap your ECU an delete the fault code which is caused by the SOV?
If the DTC code is deleted that selftest shouldn't be able to generate a limp mode.
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - baldur - 07-23-2018
I don't really understand why this shut off valve is there. Simply removing power from the rack solenoid shuts the engine off faster than the vacuum shut off on a mechanical pump does. Is the rack known to stick in the open position? It does like to stick in the fully shut position if not run for years because that is where the rack rests when the engine is not running.
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - frans-c - 07-23-2018
(07-23-2018, 02:44 AM)Ecto Is your SOV still in place with the Bosch pump or have you replaced it by an adapter to get direct in the IP?My SOV is still plugged in, but not connected to the IP - my diesel filter's outlet goes directly into the IP.
Have you ever try to remap your ECU an delete the fault code which is caused by the SOV?
If the DTC code is deleted that selftest shouldn't be able to generate a limp mode.
I currently run a Stage 2.1 map from seanyt. According to him, the SOV map data should be deleted from his map, but I still got the error. Not complaining, though - his map beats the stock ECU tune hands-down.
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - INC - 07-23-2018
(07-23-2018, 04:26 AM)baldur I don't really understand why this shut off valve is there. Simply removing power from the rack solenoid shuts the engine off faster than the vacuum shut off on a mechanical pump does. Is the rack known to stick in the open position? It does like to stick in the fully shut position if not run for years because that is where the rack rests when the engine is not running.Its for safety. If rack stick, theh valve shut down fuel and engine stops. The same algo is in VW tdi engine, but vw test it when engine starts.
This fault code is possible to switch off.
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - Ecto - 07-23-2018
(07-23-2018, 02:45 PM)frans-c(07-23-2018, 02:44 AM)Ecto Is your SOV still in place with the Bosch pump or have you replaced it by an adapter to get direct in the IP?My SOV is still plugged in, but not connected to the IP - my diesel filter's outlet goes directly into the IP.
Have you ever try to remap your ECU an delete the fault code which is caused by the SOV?
If the DTC code is deleted that selftest shouldn't be able to generate a limp mode.
I currently run a Stage 2.1 map from seanyt. According to him, the SOV map data should be deleted from his map, but I still got the error. Not complaining, though - his map beats the stock ECU tune hands-down.
Ok interesting.
So when i'll have problems soon i'll remember your trick with reving the engine before shut down.
If wouldn't recommend to use the SOV pluged in but not in the fluid path. There could be the possibility that the coil overheat because of no cooling.
It could also be that the fuel temperature sensor which is next to the solenoid may detect an overheated coil an also cause limp mode.
Maybe it's worth to try it unpluged?
greets
Ecto
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - frans-c - 07-23-2018
(07-23-2018, 04:41 PM)EctoI get a permanent limp with the SOV unplugged, so it has to stay plugged in.(07-23-2018, 02:45 PM)frans-c(07-23-2018, 02:44 AM)Ecto Is your SOV still in place with the Bosch pump or have you replaced it by an adapter to get direct in the IP?My SOV is still plugged in, but not connected to the IP - my diesel filter's outlet goes directly into the IP.
Have you ever try to remap your ECU an delete the fault code which is caused by the SOV?
If the DTC code is deleted that selftest shouldn't be able to generate a limp mode.
I currently run a Stage 2.1 map from seanyt. According to him, the SOV map data should be deleted from his map, but I still got the error. Not complaining, though - his map beats the stock ECU tune hands-down.
Ok interesting.
So when i'll have problems soon i'll remember your trick with reving the engine before shut down.
If wouldn't recommend to use the SOV pluged in but not in the fluid path. There could be the possibility that the coil overheat because of no cooling.
It could also be that the fuel temperature sensor which is next to the solenoid may detect an overheated coil an also cause limp mode.
Maybe it's worth to try it unpluged?
greets
Ecto
Haven't had any issues as yet, and my engine makes strong power.
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - Ecto - 07-24-2018
(07-23-2018, 11:58 PM)frans-c(07-23-2018, 04:41 PM)EctoI get a permanent limp with the SOV unplugged, so it has to stay plugged in.(07-23-2018, 02:45 PM)frans-c My SOV is still plugged in, but not connected to the IP - my diesel filter's outlet goes directly into the IP.
I currently run a Stage 2.1 map from seanyt. According to him, the SOV map data should be deleted from his map, but I still got the error. Not complaining, though - his map beats the stock ECU tune hands-down.
Ok interesting.
So when i'll have problems soon i'll remember your trick with reving the engine before shut down.
If wouldn't recommend to use the SOV pluged in but not in the fluid path. There could be the possibility that the coil overheat because of no cooling.
It could also be that the fuel temperature sensor which is next to the solenoid may detect an overheated coil an also cause limp mode.
Maybe it's worth to try it unpluged?
greets
Ecto
Haven't had any issues as yet, and my engine makes strong power. Last dyno was 273 whp - but we all know how optimistic dynos are
Wow that's insane.
OM 605 with 6mm?
By the way, what happen's if you forget to rev the engine before shut down? If i restart the engine and do the trick am i out of limp?
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - frans-c - 07-24-2018
(07-24-2018, 12:06 AM)Ecto(07-23-2018, 11:58 PM)frans-c(07-23-2018, 04:41 PM)Ecto Ok interesting.I get a permanent limp with the SOV unplugged, so it has to stay plugged in.
So when i'll have problems soon i'll remember your trick with reving the engine before shut down.
If wouldn't recommend to use the SOV pluged in but not in the fluid path. There could be the possibility that the coil overheat because of no cooling.
It could also be that the fuel temperature sensor which is next to the solenoid may detect an overheated coil an also cause limp mode.
Maybe it's worth to try it unpluged?
greets
Ecto
Haven't had any issues as yet, and my engine makes strong power. Last dyno was 273 whp - but we all know how optimistic dynos are
Wow that's insane.
OM 605 with 6mm?
By the way, what happen's if you forget to rev the engine before shut down? If i restart the engine and do the trick am i out of limp?
Stock OM605 and pump, but upgraded Holset HE221W turbo, intercooler and seanyt's map.
Tough luck if you forget - engine runs on for about two seconds, and you get a limp mode again. Need to then have it reset again. I forgot about three times in the beginning - never again since then, and it's now become "standard operating procedure" for me - it's second nature now.
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - seanyt - 07-24-2018
I haven't heard of many sov issues. I know on Fran's ecu
It uses a once off map I custom map due to it being a south African ecu and totally different coding to others.
But my own car and others running without sov have not encountered any problems.
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - Ecto - 07-24-2018
(07-24-2018, 01:32 AM)seanyt I haven't heard of many sov issues. I know on Fran's ecu
It uses a once off map I custom map due to it being a south African ecu and totally different coding to others.
But my own car and others running without sov have not encountered any problems.
Interesting...
So on your ECU you have no issues with an unplugged SOV?
Do you have electric pump with straight fitting into the IP? Is your engine still reving up before shut down?
I know that my ECU has only 4 code blocks. But it seems that the maps got the same adresses like the those with 8 code blocks.
Does Frans ECU also have only 4 blocks or are there major differences?
greets
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - Ecto - 07-28-2018
Today i have installed my 044 pump. Everything is working fine but the EPC light in cockpit is on.
I'm pretty sure that there is no limp mode. I have disabled the DTC error code in the software but i'm wondering why the EPC light is on. SOV is removed.
Anyone know if that is normal?
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - frans-c - 07-29-2018
(07-28-2018, 12:19 PM)Ecto Today i have installed my 044 pump. Everything is working fine but the EPC light in cockpit is on.
I'm pretty sure that there is no limp mode. I have disabled the DTC error code in the software but i'm wondering why the EPC light is on. SOV is removed.
Anyone know if that is normal?
Unless you've done any major programming changes to your ECU, you should keep the SOV, turbo actuator controller and all other sensors plugged in. I also get a permanent limp mode if I unplug my SOV.
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - Ecto - 07-29-2018
(07-29-2018, 05:41 AM)frans-c(07-28-2018, 12:19 PM)Ecto Today i have installed my 044 pump. Everything is working fine but the EPC light in cockpit is on.
I'm pretty sure that there is no limp mode. I have disabled the DTC error code in the software but i'm wondering why the EPC light is on. SOV is removed.
Anyone know if that is normal?
Unless you've done any major programming changes to your ECU, you should keep the SOV, turbo actuator controller and all other sensors plugged in. I also get a permanent limp mode if I unplug my SOV.
Thanks for your reply.
After deleting the DTC Code and after about 20 restarts of the engine the EPC light is off. It was on before but there was definitely no limp mode. Shut off valve is removed.
Everything fine now. After switching off the engine keep running 2 seconds before shut off but it doesn't rev up.
Everything fine now.
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - seanyt - 07-30-2018
South African maps have less blocks and an offset with maps in different locations.
also maps are different sizes so need to be all rescaled to match my working maps
so maps i did for frans-c have some limp modes removed to confirm the new maps worked
Odd you are all having a delay on turn off. this seems to be isolated to om605 engine from what i have seen.
My own car had a walbro 255 feeding it with the stock banjo relief bolt to hold pressure.
it alway shut straight off with power being cut and others i have seen do the same.
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - Ecto - 07-30-2018
(07-30-2018, 12:39 PM)seanyt South African maps have less blocks and an offset with maps in different locations.
also maps are different sizes so need to be all rescaled to match my working maps
so maps i did for frans-c have some limp modes removed to confirm the new maps worked
Odd you are all having a delay on turn off. this seems to be isolated to om605 engine from what i have seen.
My own car had a walbro 255 feeding it with the stock banjo relief bolt to hold pressure.
it alway shut straight off with power being cut and others i have seen do the same.
Maybe your walbro pump don't have as much flow capacity as the 044?
I'm using the pump with parallel FPR. I let circulate a half of the fuel in the bypass and the other stream flows through the relief bolt. The pump got an insane flow capacity and it keeps the fuel pressure up quite a long i'm sure that's the reason therefore.
RE: No smoke, no power EDC 7.5 - seanyt - 08-01-2018
It was a genuine walbro should still flow more than enough.
What kind of pressure are you running?
I still had black smoke at 5.5k and 2.4bar boost with just the stock banjo relief valve.
Fairly certain the newer elements used in the pumps dont require the use of large fuel pressure.