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+--- Thread: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed (/showthread.php?tid=851)
Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - CID Vicious - 11-17-2009
I'm kind of surprised that this hasn't been made a sticky yet...so, those who have done it, what is the list, and what is the process, step by step?
I have an 83 300D and an 82 240D manual. So far, I know that I need to swap over the pedal assemblies, master, slave, all lines, the flywheel, the shifter, the 240D's driveshaft (shortened four inches, along with the shifter rods), a 240D automatic transmission cross member... what am I forgetting?
I'd like to see some contribution from those who have done it, and if it's done well, a sticky for future reference. Anyone interested in building a 'superturbo' almost always asks what is involved in this swap, is it possible, how much, etc, so I figure it may as well get spelled out and stickied.
Thanks,
CID
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - JB3 - 11-18-2009
If you put the 4-speed in the 300D, you can also lengthen the 300D stock forward shaft which is a thinner diameter by 5.5 to 6.5 inches. I did 6.5, which was almost a tight fit, but fit nicely. Any longer there would have been a problem.
In the same swap, the shift linkages will need to be shortened about 4.5 inches and tweaked slightly. I cut and welded mine in the middle after marking the orientation, but I have heard of others threading and making them adjustable. Probably on the ends, but someone else will have to speak to that, I think it makes more sense for fine tuning. Once I welded them, that was it, no adjustment.
240 flywheel and 300 driven plate need to be match balanced. (mine were both neutrally balanced since the driven plate was neutral, but ive heard this can be different.)
It is necessary to deal with the starter inhibitor switch that was mounted on the automatic tranny. Basically, the electrical connector left on the car needs to be jumped so that the not in park safety is bypassed. It can be wired directly to the neutral safety switch that came off the 240 on the pedal assembly, but in order to just jump it, you have to wire the violet and white, and the solid violet wires together.
The other two wires that went to that switch were the reverse lights, which can be wired directly to the switch at the stick mechanism.
Use new bolts for the flywheel, I didn't but its worth it, and DEFINITELY get either the mercedes OEM spring washers, or lock washers for the bell housing bolt pattern.
I had no idea they were even supposed to be there, since all mine were missing over the years, and i had some issues later on with bolts backing out. I also used a mix of bolts putting the transmission back in, so keep all bellhousing bolts for both vehicles until you have it back together.
Step by step for me was-
1-find a donor parts car, or rip out a full pedal assembly and stick mechanism from somewhere. Grab everything related including the hose from the master up to the brake reservoir.
2-remove 300 tranny
3-remove 240 tranny
4-remove and match balance driven plate and flywheel for both after clearly marking orientation on the 300D, have the flywheel orientation marked as well
5-install flywheel on 300D using 240 bolts and orient it properly
6-install clutch and pressure plate, use an alignment tool, and DO NOT FORGET THE PILOT BEARING. I did this, im retarded, although it did work for a LONG time.
7-Install transmission and whatever mounting option you have to hold it up with slave cylinder and line already attached. If you cannot find a 240 automatic tranny cross member, modify the manual cross member to work. DO NOT REVERSE the 300d automatic mount. This will work, but it Fs up the offset of the whole shebang. From what ive learned on here, the driveshaft is running down the passenger side of the tunnel by 2 degrees? and that position needs to be maintained, otherwise you have a Z shaped driveline.
8-measure, modify, and balance driveshafts, then install. I used this as an opportunity to replace all flex discs and carrier bearing
9-install shifter, (bolt holes should be the same)
10-measure and modify shift linkage, and install.
11-pull 300D pedal assembly, 4 bolts holding it, plus assorted wiring, AND some kind of hook up top for alignment, needs to be pulled forward then down.
12- install 240 pedal assembly, hook will align it, and it bolts right up, I replaced and installed the master before installing the pedal assembly. NOTE- there is a 90 degree plastic fitting that goes to the hose through the firewall which is crucial that you do not lose or break. Some electrical crap will be in the way, it was originally using a bracket on the 300D pedal assembly to mount to, you will have to move this to the side and secure it.
13- install and connect all plumbing for the clutch assembly, by design it breaks apart right outside the passenger compartment if you are lucky
14- resolve all wiring issues
15- bleed clutch and test drive.
Thats what I did, I really enjoyed it afterwords, although I did experience some altitude clutch engagement issues in colorado with turbo spooling. I did nothing to resolve that, im sure others have done quite a bit more looking into performance issues
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - CID Vicious - 11-18-2009
Awesome, dropnosky, awesome...I've seen the process described in bits and pieces all over this forum, it's great to have it all in one spot.
There is a lot I'd like to try out as far as variations on the theme - a 'real' driveshaft with u-joints to eliminate the flex discs and center bearing and getting a Toyota trans to work in the Mercedes (it'd be so easy if I just loved the motor and not the car, too). But I may as well start with the stock Mercedes stuff that I know works first.
And if anyone was paying attention to my pseudo-rants over on the 'differential interchange' page, one can just guess which diff is going into the 300 (and yes, I know it's not LSD...one can dream.)
Speaking of LSD, I had to shift the 300D manually (no bowman cable) to get it up here, works fine, but I noticed that to do the full gear spread manually, you'd start out in L, to S, to D. Someone was addled in the engineering department! "Hey, did that package from Switzerland arrive yet? Should say 'Sandoz Pharmaceuticals'..."
No, I'm not in high school, I'm just a vastly immature 30.
"A-B-C-D-E-F-G....
Wanna tell your teacher 'bout L-S-D..."
CID
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - JB3 - 11-18-2009
Heres a few pics of my swap-
heres the 240 driveshaft un modified, next to the 300D driveshaft lengthened-
Heres a couple of pics of what I ended up doing with the linkage, welded and then ground down. The only advantage to this is that there is basically no interference between the different shift rods, and it looks stock after painting-
Heres a pic of the pedal assembly from the 240 installed. notice how the clutch line runs down behind the pedals, and will go outside a nice little grommet already installed on the 300D. The electrical box at the top of the picture used to be vertically installed where the clutch pedal is now, I had to move this and secure it-
And heres a pic of the hose you have to add up to the reservoir. I used a braided line I had from somewhere, the other end has that little plastic 90 degree I was talking about that attaches to the clutch master. There should be a nice little molded plastic nipple already on the brake fluid reservoir, just cut, hose clamp, and bleed.
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - winmutt - 11-19-2009
I have the correct shifter linkages for sale for your swap CID. PM and we can talk $.
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - JB3 - 11-19-2009
One other thing I forgot was removing the vacuum line down to the auto tranny. I just put a bolt in the line as you can see in this pic. (right above the oil filter)
I think most people will agree that the swap is actually child's play when you get into it. I will say honestly that I did a very hackman like job with my personal swap, and it STILL worked awesome for like 20,000 miles until I undid a lot of the crimes I committed.
The other thing was for anyone else who did it, I had read some other statements about how some people had to modify the throttle cable with one that is out of a manual application for some sort of spring or return need, has anyone actually done this? I had no problems with mine being stock.
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - ForcedInduction - 11-19-2009
(11-19-2009, 01:52 PM)dropnosky I just put a bolt in the line as you can see in this pic.The valve on the IP and most of the hoses can be eliminated entirely.
Quote:I had read some other statements about how some people had to modify the throttle cable with one that is out of a manual application for some sort of spring or return need, has anyone actually done this? I had no problems with mine being stock.I got rid of that mess on top of the valve cover and used the linkage from a W116 300SD.
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - JB3 - 11-19-2009
nice, thats a LOT cleaner.
What are your thoughts on which shaft to modify if you have that option?
In this pic below, you can see the 240 and 300 shafts next to each other, even though its a little obscured.
The 240 shaft was pretty much uniform, except for the taper before the carrier bearing. The 300 was thinner on the forward shaft, and thicker on the rear shaft than the 240.
I modified the 300 shaft for two reasons, 1, I thought that the differences in the shafts might represent some kind of tuning/vibration decision on the part of MB, and figured I should keep the shaft that went with the engine, and 2, as always, it came down to money, and I thought that the 300 forward shaft might be cheaper to modify since it shares uniform thicknesses on either end.
I imagine there is probably no difference either way. any thoughts?
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - ForcedInduction - 11-19-2009
At near stock power levels, it probably doesn't matter.
I originally started with a modified 240D shaft then switched to a euro 4-m 300D shaft I got out of a junkyard. I'm still kicking myself for not getting the flywheel.
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - CID Vicious - 11-19-2009
In general, I find it's easier to shorten something than try to lengthen it...if I decide to turn my 240D into a super-grandma-mobile (616, 722, 3.06), I'm going to need to buy a 240D auto driveshaft anyway. In all honesty what I want is a pair of u joints and a one-piece...
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - Nick - 01-05-2010
So what happens when someone like me wants to put a 4 speed into a 300CD? Would I still have to lengthen the driveshaft and linkages? Am I in uncharted waters?
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - JB3 - 01-05-2010
maybe, as far as lengths would go that could be uncharted territory. My guess is that you would have to do the same mods, just the dimensions might be slightly different. That car is very close to the same length as the sedan, so maybe not, the wheelbase might be the same.
I figure there are 6 potential drive shaft and linkage dimensional changes for the 123 chassis auto to manual swap-
1- manual transmission in a 300D turbo sedan- covered
2- manual transmission in a 300D NA sedan
3- manual transmission in a 300CD coupe
4- manual transmission in a 300TD wagon
5- manual transmission in a rare 300TD NA wagon
6- Turbo motor in a 240D sedan
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - ForcedInduction - 01-05-2010
The 300CD wheelbase is 2710mm compared to the 300D/TD 2795mm. 85mm is pretty significant, it takes nearly a foot off the turning circle.
1, 2, 4, 5 and 6 will all use the same dimensions. The wagon's only differences are in the body from the B-pillar back, the wheelbase and drivetrain are exactly the same. A turbo engine in a 240D is basically converting it into a 300D. With exception of some interior options and rear end ratio, its the same as a 300D.
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - JB3 - 01-05-2010
(01-05-2010, 09:40 AM)ForcedInduction The 300CD wheelbase is 2710mm compared to the 300D/TD 2795mm. 85mm is pretty significant, it takes nearly a foot off the turning circle.
Awesome- so its up to Nick to perform this conversion and post the data!
So on swapping the engine into a 240, is it as simple as just pulling the 4cyl drive train out and dropping the new engine in and everything matches mountwise? do you have to play with the mounts, like using the 240 mounts on the 5cyl, or part of the 300 mounts ect.?
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - bmwpowere36m3 - 01-05-2010
(01-05-2010, 08:26 AM)dropnosky maybe, as far as lengths would go that could be uncharted territory. My guess is that you would have to do the same mods, just the dimensions might be slightly different. That car is very close to the same length as the sedan, so maybe not, the wheelbase might be the same.
I figure there are 6 potential drive shaft and linkage dimensional changes for the 123 chassis auto to manual swap-
1- manual transmission in a 300D turbo sedan- covered
2- manual transmission in a 300D NA sedan
3- manual transmission in a 300CD coupe
4- manual transmission in a 300TD wagon
5- manual transmission in a rare 300TD NA wagon
6- Turbo motor in a 240D sedan
I just did the swap on my 300CD, installed a 4 spd out of a 240D along with a euro 617NA. I used a 240D automatic crossmember (bolts up perfectly), a shorted 240D front driveshaft section, and shortened 240D linkages (slightly re-bent as well).
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - JB3 - 01-05-2010
how far did you have to shorten the linkages and drive shaft?
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - bmwpowere36m3 - 01-06-2010
(01-05-2010, 11:43 PM)dropnosky how far did you have to shorten the linkages and drive shaft?
Off hand I don't remember... the linkages maybe ~ 4" and the 240D driveshaft ~2" IIRC.
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - DeliveryValve - 01-07-2010
(11-19-2009, 03:47 PM)ForcedInduction(11-19-2009, 01:52 PM)dropnosky I just put a bolt in the line as you can see in this pic.The valve on the IP and most of the hoses can be eliminated entirely.
Quote:I had read some other statements about how some people had to modify the throttle cable with one that is out of a manual application for some sort of spring or return need, has anyone actually done this? I had no problems with mine being stock.I got rid of that mess on top of the valve cover and used the linkage from a W116 300SD.
Here is a picture of a 1983 Euro 300D 4 speed setup for reference.
Much cleaner look.
.
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - bmwpowere36m3 - 01-07-2010
(01-01-1974, 10:58 AM)DeliveryValve Here is a picture of a 1983 Euro 300D 4 speed setup for reference.
Much cleaner look.
Do you have any closer pics of the IP linkages, I'm trying to modify my existing ones to eliminate all the valve cover "accessories" since I switched to a manual and removed the cruise control, idle adjuster, and EGR.
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - DeliveryValve - 01-07-2010
(01-07-2010, 09:35 PM)bmwpowere36m3(01-01-1974, 10:58 AM)DeliveryValve Here is a picture of a 1983 Euro 300D 4 speed setup for reference.
Much cleaner look.
Do you have any closer pics of the IP linkages, I'm trying to modify my existing ones to eliminate all the valve cover "accessories" since I switched to a manual and removed the cruise control, idle adjuster, and EGR.
I don't have a closer shot of that particular vehicle. But this is one that has a similar linkage, but with the added cruise control and EGR vac function (just look past that).
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - charmalu - 01-08-2010
I replaced my complicate automatic linkage with one from a 79 W116 300SD.
Made a real difference in the softness of the peddle.
Charlie
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - Syncro_G - 03-11-2010
I have a quick question regarding the pilot bearing.
I'm pulling the parts and budget together to switch back to manual (engine swap certification required using the automatic)
Do all 617's (mine's an '85) have a crankshaft that's already machined for a pilot bearing?
Or is the pilot bearing mounted in the flywheel?
-C
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - DeliveryValve - 03-11-2010
(03-11-2010, 11:47 AM)Syncro_G I have a quick question regarding the pilot bearing.
I'm pulling the parts and budget together to switch back to manual (engine swap certification required using the automatic)
Do all 617's (mine's an '85) have a crankshaft that's already machined for a pilot bearing?
Or is the pilot bearing mounted in the flywheel?
-C
The pilot bearing goes on the crank. But your '85 617 will most likely have an odd ball sized bore for the stock pilot bearing . Some folks had to use an undersized OD bearing and put a sleeve/bushing on it to make up the difference.
And what with this swap certification? Why is an automatic different then a manual?
.
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - winmutt - 03-11-2010
I just ground down my pilot bearing. I wouldn't mess with the crank that is for sure.
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - Syncro_G - 03-12-2010
thanks guys. I agree, modifying the bearing race is the way I'll go.
(03-11-2010, 11:58 AM)DeliveryValve And what with this swap certification? Why is an automatic different then a manual?Cal BAR required I bring over the complete drive train with egr, transmission and any other emmissions devises to get it changed to diesel.
It's part of the guidelines for any swap from gas to diesel.
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - ForcedInduction - 03-12-2010
(03-12-2010, 12:25 AM)Syncro_G thanks guys. I agree, modifying the bearing race is the way I'll go.
Or you can make a sleeve to fit a smaller OD bearing like Tom Judd did on his.
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - Syncro_G - 03-12-2010
FI - thanks for the picture! are these fairly generic bearings?
-Christian
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - ForcedInduction - 03-12-2010
I don't know where he bought his smaller bearing.
I'd bet that if you ask around a few companies and give them the needed dimensions you can find a bearing that naturally fits the smaller crank hole.
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - Syncro_G - 03-13-2010
(03-12-2010, 06:22 PM)ForcedInduction I'd bet that if you ask around a few companies and give them the needed dimensions you can find a bearing that naturally fits the smaller crank hole.
Probably - I'll start there first but I'll be prepared to grind.
Even with something close, the fit has to be perfect or the outer race will spin.
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - Nick - 03-13-2010
(01-05-2010, 11:41 AM)dropnosky(01-05-2010, 09:40 AM)ForcedInduction The 300CD wheelbase is 2710mm compared to the 300D/TD 2795mm. 85mm is pretty significant, it takes nearly a foot off the turning circle.
Awesome- so its up to Nick to perform this conversion and post the data!
So on swapping the engine into a 240, is it as simple as just pulling the 4cyl drive train out and dropping the new engine in and everything matches mountwise? do you have to play with the mounts, like using the 240 mounts on the 5cyl, or part of the 300 mounts ect.?
Forced and Dropnosky, I just got a 4 speed trans, linkages, pedals, shifter, clutch stuff, flywheel, and the front section of the 240D driveshaft from the local PnP.
Looks like im in!
Im waiting on my steam cleaner to get here and im going to go to town cleaning this thing. I plan to go through the transmission and check everything out, replace seals, etc. and plan to have this installed as soon as summer break starts. I can't wait!
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - charmalu - 03-15-2010
(03-12-2010, 06:55 AM)ForcedInduction(03-12-2010, 12:25 AM)Syncro_G thanks guys. I agree, modifying the bearing race is the way I'll go.
Or you can make a sleeve to fit a smaller OD bearing like Tom Judd did on his.
Tom made the sleeve for the bearing. Later on it did start to spin on him, just not a tight enough fit. I think a Bronze/Brass Bushing could be turned on a lathe.
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?t=76297
There are a lot of engines that have a bushing. My 82 Datsun King-Cab with the SD-22 Diesel engine uses a bushing. has worked good for over 450k miles.
Charlie
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - JB3 - 03-23-2010
pics of the different types of pedal assemblies
123 chassis assembly, notice the hook on the top of the casting-
115/114 chassis assembly-
201 chassis assembly- (definitely the cheesiest construction)
Interesting to note- All three chassis brake booster bolt patterns are so close that you can probably mix and match if you choose to enter that kind of hell. 123 and 115 have similar type clutch resistance springs, though 115 seems to be slightly heavier action. 201 is predictably much lighter with lighter spring. These resistance tests were performed using no kind of scientific method or tool.
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - Nick - 03-28-2010
that's a very interesting note of the spring resistance.
i've always preferred a "harder-to-push" clutch pedal. i do wonder if those springs are close enough to swap?
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - JB3 - 04-16-2010
I don't think swapping the springs would really have any effect on the clutch resistance, I think thats mostly pressure plate/ hydraulic related.
The spring snaps the pedal either full up or fully down. My guess is that it ensures that the pedal fully returns and the master is completely out in the up position, and that it adds a mechanical assistance and makes it easier to hold the clutch pedal in the fully down position.
Here are some part numbers if you do not have a parts car. These are not totally complete, without the slave and master and one line-
Sachs clutch disc 0102502503 or 1861792235
Sachs pressure plate 0042503204 or SC297
Release bearing 0002505515
Pilot Bearing(s) 93110211100 or F801-11-303
Drive shaft mount 1234101081
Drive shaft boot 2024110497
Drive shaft bearing 0039812325
2ct flex discs 1234100015
Plastic OEM 90 degree out of master to hose A 0002950036
Linkage clips A 0000044160
Manual tranny flywheel to crank bolts 6150320571
clutch line heading out of body with integrated rubber flex hose 1232951713
OEM hose from reservoir to master cylinder 0039971252
Missing-
tranny mount
linkage rods
linkage bushings for tranny and stick side
Master cylinder
Slave cylinder
2nd part of clutch hydraulic line (slave over the tranny to the flex hose). This I discovered is no longer available at least through the classic center. They instead provide a piece of a 300SD SLS line that has to be shortened and made to fit. Other options would be to pull from a yard or just make using some 6mm brake line and some metric fittings.
Most of this stuff I got using a 1980 240D as the parts search year and type.
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - Syncro_G - 05-28-2010
I ordered two pilot bearings and then got a machinist to grind the race of one of them down to 34mm. I don't know which I'll need but I'll have both on hand when I do the swap.
For those who want to go this route, find a good industrial machine shop in your area and ask those guys who grinds their tools. The tool grinder will likely have the setup needed to grind a pilot bearing down.
it cost me $15 to have mine done.
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - JB3 - 02-10-2012
(03-12-2010, 06:55 AM)ForcedInduction(03-12-2010, 12:25 AM)Syncro_G thanks guys. I agree, modifying the bearing race is the way I'll go.
Or you can make a sleeve to fit a smaller OD bearing like Tom Judd did on his.
I think the bearing in this picture is a GM bearing, for maybe an S-10. The ID on the MB bearing is the same as on a lot of GM T5s, and NV-3500's.
that would be a place to start if your crank was too small for the stock MB bearing
RE: Every single thing you need to convert to a four-speed - w123love - 02-13-2012
[/align] Sweet thread. Thanks Drop