mid swap of 603 > 606. have some questions
mid swap of 603 > 606. have some questions
03-08-2010, 08:50 PM
#1
I'm posting a distilled version of Tinker's post (he didn't get any response)
Here are the things I think guys here would know pretty well:
1. tach signal. 603 used the TDC sender. 606 has no provisions on the balancer to trigger a sender. But it has a flywheel pickup that creates 3 pulses per revolution.
How do we make use of that? do the aftermarket VDO tach's work with that directly? Can I wire that (coax) to the tach amp can to create a stronger signal to drive a tach?
How do you solve this? (we're removing the computer for this swap)
2. Serpentine belt length and pulleys. The engine looks like it will have a hybrid of 603 and 606 peripherals. The result will likely result in a non-stock serpentine belt size. Is that an impediment (is it easy to get different lengths) or should we plan on having extra idlers made to take up any slack? or put in extra effort to keep all 603 or all 606 pulleys/pully positions?
3. Keep the 603 CPU? I've heard the cpu can be important to maintaining a smooth idle on these engines. Other than that, I don't see any major value in it. Is idle really that big a deal on these engines?
4. Waste gate actuator. turbo has a waste gate actuator that closes on vacuum (and is controlled by a vacuum solenoid and CPU) should we just swap it out for an actuator that opens on boost? any recommendations on the actuator?
Any help would be awesome, Thanks from me and Tinker
A little background on the project:
This is a G-Wagen that belongs to a mutual friend of ours. Tinker's doing the work, I'm trying to help trouble shoot the process.
It had a 603 engine in it (with #14 head that cracked) and they decided to move up to a 606. As much as possible, they're keeping the 603 components. but vacuum pump, water pump, turbo and a few other things are remaining 606.
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
Hi,
I'm posting a distilled version of Tinker's post (he didn't get any response)
Here are the things I think guys here would know pretty well:
1. tach signal. 603 used the TDC sender. 606 has no provisions on the balancer to trigger a sender. But it has a flywheel pickup that creates 3 pulses per revolution.
How do we make use of that? do the aftermarket VDO tach's work with that directly? Can I wire that (coax) to the tach amp can to create a stronger signal to drive a tach?
How do you solve this? (we're removing the computer for this swap)
2. Serpentine belt length and pulleys. The engine looks like it will have a hybrid of 603 and 606 peripherals. The result will likely result in a non-stock serpentine belt size. Is that an impediment (is it easy to get different lengths) or should we plan on having extra idlers made to take up any slack? or put in extra effort to keep all 603 or all 606 pulleys/pully positions?
3. Keep the 603 CPU? I've heard the cpu can be important to maintaining a smooth idle on these engines. Other than that, I don't see any major value in it. Is idle really that big a deal on these engines?
4. Waste gate actuator. turbo has a waste gate actuator that closes on vacuum (and is controlled by a vacuum solenoid and CPU) should we just swap it out for an actuator that opens on boost? any recommendations on the actuator?
Any help would be awesome, Thanks from me and Tinker
A little background on the project:
This is a G-Wagen that belongs to a mutual friend of ours. Tinker's doing the work, I'm trying to help trouble shoot the process.
It had a 603 engine in it (with #14 head that cracked) and they decided to move up to a 606. As much as possible, they're keeping the 603 components. but vacuum pump, water pump, turbo and a few other things are remaining 606.
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
03-09-2010, 03:42 AM
#2
(03-08-2010, 08:50 PM)Syncro_G Hi,
I'm posting a distilled version of Tinker's post (he didn't get any response)
Here are the things I think guys here would know pretty well:
1. tach signal. 603 used the TDC sender. 606 has no provisions on the balancer to trigger a sender. But it has a flywheel pickup that creates 3 pulses per revolution.
How do we make use of that? do the aftermarket VDO tach's work with that directly? Can I wire that (coax) to the tach amp can to create a stronger signal to drive a tach?
How do you solve this? (we're removing the computer for this swap)
2. Serpentine belt length and pulleys. The engine looks like it will have a hybrid of 603 and 606 peripherals. The result will likely result in a non-stock serpentine belt size. Is that an impediment (is it easy to get different lengths) or should we plan on having extra idlers made to take up any slack? or put in extra effort to keep all 603 or all 606 pulleys/pully positions?
3. Keep the 603 CPU? I've heard the cpu can be important to maintaining a smooth idle on these engines. Other than that, I don't see any major value in it. Is idle really that big a deal on these engines?
4. Waste gate actuator. turbo has a waste gate actuator that closes on vacuum (and is controlled by a vacuum solenoid and CPU) should we just swap it out for an actuator that opens on boost? any recommendations on the actuator?
Any help would be awesome, Thanks from me and Tinker
A little background on the project:
This is a G-Wagen that belongs to a mutual friend of ours. Tinker's doing the work, I'm trying to help trouble shoot the process.
It had a 603 engine in it (with #14 head that cracked) and they decided to move up to a 606. As much as possible, they're keeping the 603 components. but vacuum pump, water pump, turbo and a few other things are remaining 606.
1) In my 0ld om602 setup i left original VDO tach, and wire up it with original RPM sender. I use single mass flywheel, and make one long pressure plate screw so rpm sender gets one signal per revolution. All works fine for me
2) You can get various lenght of belt.
3) If possible Yes.
4) I make it with boost controled wastegate, simply get actuator from Sprinter 2.9 engine.
G300TD(OM606.964) & 250GD(OM605.960)Trophy raid
(03-08-2010, 08:50 PM)Syncro_G Hi,
I'm posting a distilled version of Tinker's post (he didn't get any response)
Here are the things I think guys here would know pretty well:
1. tach signal. 603 used the TDC sender. 606 has no provisions on the balancer to trigger a sender. But it has a flywheel pickup that creates 3 pulses per revolution.
How do we make use of that? do the aftermarket VDO tach's work with that directly? Can I wire that (coax) to the tach amp can to create a stronger signal to drive a tach?
How do you solve this? (we're removing the computer for this swap)
2. Serpentine belt length and pulleys. The engine looks like it will have a hybrid of 603 and 606 peripherals. The result will likely result in a non-stock serpentine belt size. Is that an impediment (is it easy to get different lengths) or should we plan on having extra idlers made to take up any slack? or put in extra effort to keep all 603 or all 606 pulleys/pully positions?
3. Keep the 603 CPU? I've heard the cpu can be important to maintaining a smooth idle on these engines. Other than that, I don't see any major value in it. Is idle really that big a deal on these engines?
4. Waste gate actuator. turbo has a waste gate actuator that closes on vacuum (and is controlled by a vacuum solenoid and CPU) should we just swap it out for an actuator that opens on boost? any recommendations on the actuator?
Any help would be awesome, Thanks from me and Tinker
A little background on the project:
This is a G-Wagen that belongs to a mutual friend of ours. Tinker's doing the work, I'm trying to help trouble shoot the process.
It had a 603 engine in it (with #14 head that cracked) and they decided to move up to a 606. As much as possible, they're keeping the 603 components. but vacuum pump, water pump, turbo and a few other things are remaining 606.
1) In my 0ld om602 setup i left original VDO tach, and wire up it with original RPM sender. I use single mass flywheel, and make one long pressure plate screw so rpm sender gets one signal per revolution. All works fine for me
2) You can get various lenght of belt.
3) If possible Yes.
4) I make it with boost controled wastegate, simply get actuator from Sprinter 2.9 engine.
G300TD(OM606.964) & 250GD(OM605.960)Trophy raid
03-09-2010, 09:28 AM
#3
(03-09-2010, 03:42 AM)INC 1) In my 0ld om602 setup i left original VDO tach, and wire up it with original RPM sender. I use single mass flywheel, and make one long pressure plate screw so rpm sender gets one signal per revolution. All works fine for me
2) You can get various lenght of belt.
3) If possible Yes.
4) I make it with boost controled wastegate, simply get actuator from Sprinter 2.9 engine.
Thanks INC!
1 - So you took the flywheel sender and got it to work with the tach amp and it works together? the original TDC sender has 3 connectors vs. 2 for the coax flywhell sender. I assume the tdc sender has a separate shield from the ground conductor. That should be easy to figure out.
Also, those pins on the harmonic balancer are really small. I suspect we could bend 2 of 3 inward so they don't trigger the amp. balance shouldn't be compromised because of the minimal weight shift.
-C
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
(03-09-2010, 03:42 AM)INC 1) In my 0ld om602 setup i left original VDO tach, and wire up it with original RPM sender. I use single mass flywheel, and make one long pressure plate screw so rpm sender gets one signal per revolution. All works fine for me
2) You can get various lenght of belt.
3) If possible Yes.
4) I make it with boost controled wastegate, simply get actuator from Sprinter 2.9 engine.
Thanks INC!
1 - So you took the flywheel sender and got it to work with the tach amp and it works together? the original TDC sender has 3 connectors vs. 2 for the coax flywhell sender. I assume the tdc sender has a separate shield from the ground conductor. That should be easy to figure out.
Also, those pins on the harmonic balancer are really small. I suspect we could bend 2 of 3 inward so they don't trigger the amp. balance shouldn't be compromised because of the minimal weight shift.
-C
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
03-09-2010, 02:10 PM
#5
ForcedInduction
03-09-2010, 02:10 PM
#5
Not unless you change the pistons as well; thats if the oil, water and head bolt holes actually match.
03-09-2010, 07:56 PM
#7
[/quote]
Thanks for the reply INC
Do you have a part # for the sprinter actuator, I called our parts house and they couldn't look it up without more info.
There are a lot of boost actuators on ebay if I can specify one that fits, Does someone know what is the model of the stock E300 turbo? I know it is a KKK but there are alot of other numbers on it that aren't a model#.
I was planing to use one with a mechanical boost control.
Danny
603 CPU
It looks like people are saying use the EDS if you can, Is some one running the IP of a 1987 603 without the EDS? If so how is it running and what isues did you encounter?
Thanks
Danny
This post was last modified: 03-09-2010, 08:04 PM by tinker.
4) I make it with boost controled wastegate, simply get actuator from Sprinter 2.9 engine.
[/quote]
Thanks for the reply INC
Do you have a part # for the sprinter actuator, I called our parts house and they couldn't look it up without more info.
There are a lot of boost actuators on ebay if I can specify one that fits, Does someone know what is the model of the stock E300 turbo? I know it is a KKK but there are alot of other numbers on it that aren't a model#.
I was planing to use one with a mechanical boost control.
Danny
603 CPU
It looks like people are saying use the EDS if you can, Is some one running the IP of a 1987 603 without the EDS? If so how is it running and what isues did you encounter?
Thanks
Danny
03-09-2010, 10:46 PM
#8
mbenzo300td
03-09-2010, 10:46 PM #8I know the head gaskets are the same with the acception of one hole. I have a 606 head gasket on my 603. more metal. So om606 pistons and thats where its at right now?
03-10-2010, 12:23 AM
#9
(03-09-2010, 10:46 PM)mbenzo300td I know the head gaskets are the same with the acception of one hole. I have a 606 head gasket on my 603. more metal. So om606 pistons and thats where its at right now?
Can you tell what kind of hole it is? Whats the position?
On EDS you can tweak the idle up on the IP and completely do-away with eds without much loss if any. On a 603 pump 606 pump is a different story all together
This post was last modified: 03-10-2010, 12:29 AM by Kozuka.
(03-09-2010, 10:46 PM)mbenzo300td I know the head gaskets are the same with the acception of one hole. I have a 606 head gasket on my 603. more metal. So om606 pistons and thats where its at right now?
Can you tell what kind of hole it is? Whats the position?
On EDS you can tweak the idle up on the IP and completely do-away with eds without much loss if any. On a 603 pump 606 pump is a different story all together
03-10-2010, 03:19 PM
#11
(03-09-2010, 10:46 PM)mbenzo300td I know the head gaskets are the same with the acception of one hole. I have a 606 head gasket on my 603. more metal. So om606 pistons and thats where its at right now?
I think it's just the interference of valves and piston heads that need to be sorted out. But either way, it's much less work to keep the 606 head and block together than to swap pistons. And with a fried head on the 603, it's safer to go with the 606 bottom end. The remaining issues are mostly with the top end, pump and the peripherals.
And thanks for all the feedback so far guys!
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
(03-09-2010, 10:46 PM)mbenzo300td I know the head gaskets are the same with the acception of one hole. I have a 606 head gasket on my 603. more metal. So om606 pistons and thats where its at right now?
I think it's just the interference of valves and piston heads that need to be sorted out. But either way, it's much less work to keep the 606 head and block together than to swap pistons. And with a fried head on the 603, it's safer to go with the 606 bottom end. The remaining issues are mostly with the top end, pump and the peripherals.
And thanks for all the feedback so far guys!
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
03-10-2010, 05:50 PM
#12
mbenzo300td
03-10-2010, 05:50 PM #12The bottom end of a 603 is more stronger and has oil cooled pistons. If you do the head swap you would be a pioneer and basically awsome
03-10-2010, 11:39 PM
#13
(03-10-2010, 05:50 PM)mbenzo300td The bottom end of a 603 is more stronger and has oil cooled pistons. If you do the head swap you would be a pioneer and basically awsome
If it were my project, I'd try it but my time is my own. I think Tinker is on the clock so he's trying not to get too wild with it.
but after seeing the dissection in progress, I'm getting interested in doing another swap myself. If only I had a trust fund or something.
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
(03-10-2010, 05:50 PM)mbenzo300td The bottom end of a 603 is more stronger and has oil cooled pistons. If you do the head swap you would be a pioneer and basically awsome
If it were my project, I'd try it but my time is my own. I think Tinker is on the clock so he's trying not to get too wild with it.
but after seeing the dissection in progress, I'm getting interested in doing another swap myself. If only I had a trust fund or something.
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
03-11-2010, 07:01 AM
#14
ForcedInduction
03-11-2010, 07:01 AM
#14
Hint Hint: I see a way to make an OM605 in the USA without the hassle or port of entry challenges of importing an entire engine.....
03-11-2010, 09:27 AM
#16
(03-11-2010, 07:01 AM)ForcedInduction Hint Hint: I see a way to make an OM605 in the USA without the hassle or port of entry challenges of importing an entire engine.....
I had assumed MB imported those engines but come to think of it, I haven't seen one in the states. so bring over a head and use the 602 bottom end. That would be a sweet G-Wagen engine. But if going through that effort, I'd want to bring over the 2.9 L block too. (Edit: the 90's sprinter was offered with the 2.9)
This post was last modified: 03-11-2010, 09:44 AM by Syncro_G.
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
(03-11-2010, 07:01 AM)ForcedInduction Hint Hint: I see a way to make an OM605 in the USA without the hassle or port of entry challenges of importing an entire engine.....
I had assumed MB imported those engines but come to think of it, I haven't seen one in the states. so bring over a head and use the 602 bottom end. That would be a sweet G-Wagen engine. But if going through that effort, I'd want to bring over the 2.9 L block too. (Edit: the 90's sprinter was offered with the 2.9)
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
03-11-2010, 11:01 AM
#17
Oil Return..
![[Image: manualoilreturn603.jpg]](http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/4835/manualoilreturn603.jpg)
No..
This must be a camshaft journal oil supply, increased size because of two cam's. Probably going to have to make it bigger on a 603 block not to run into any problems. Can't find any information in the factory manual about it but it looks to be in the right position for the circuit diagram.
Wonders if that hole might have to be made to match for appropriate oil flow. Oh Wait...
Oil Return..
No..
This must be a camshaft journal oil supply, increased size because of two cam's. Probably going to have to make it bigger on a 603 block not to run into any problems. Can't find any information in the factory manual about it but it looks to be in the right position for the circuit diagram.
03-14-2010, 10:47 AM
#20
(03-10-2010, 05:50 PM)mbenzo300td The bottom end of a 603 is more stronger and has oil cooled pistons. If you do the head swap you would be a pioneer and basically awsome
so from what I heard, the pistons would have to be swapped so the valve depressions would match up. If so, then you're loosing the main insentive for hybridising.
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
(03-10-2010, 05:50 PM)mbenzo300td The bottom end of a 603 is more stronger and has oil cooled pistons. If you do the head swap you would be a pioneer and basically awsome
so from what I heard, the pistons would have to be swapped so the valve depressions would match up. If so, then you're loosing the main insentive for hybridising.
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
03-15-2010, 11:51 AM
#21
So if you we're throwing down on a 606 head.. My estimate.
Head $1500
Pistons & Rings $1000
Gaskets $200
Timing Chain, Rails, Tensioner $200
$2900
You can get a complete OM606 engine in good used condition for that price and your going to need other stuff. So if your down for the $4000 rebuild go for it. If not get a new engine.
Unless your plan is to build a 500+ HP Beast! Then I could see the reason, then you would need custom rods as well. But pretty much any SOHC to DOHC conversion you will need new pistons for valve reliefs.
So if you we're throwing down on a 606 head.. My estimate.
Head $1500
Pistons & Rings $1000
Gaskets $200
Timing Chain, Rails, Tensioner $200
$2900
You can get a complete OM606 engine in good used condition for that price and your going to need other stuff. So if your down for the $4000 rebuild go for it. If not get a new engine.
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