Is This a Simpler Alternative to VGT/VNT?
Is This a Simpler Alternative to VGT/VNT?
http://www.spracingonline.com/store/Soun...Valve/3659
Has anyone used them? If so, do they really work? Could they be a simpler alternative to VNT/VGT for those of us who cannot make controllers for VNT/VGT?
http://www.spracingonline.com/store/Soun...Valve/3659
'98 E300 Turbo "Juliette" - Brabus wheels and almost all the options a w210 could have
2007 Chevy 2500HD CCSB Duramax with about 400-500 rwhp depending on the tune I use
1983 300D Silver Exterior/Black inside - Sold and will be missed, may we never meet in a PnP.
That looks interesting.... *subscribing*
'98 E300 Turbo "Juliette" - Brabus wheels and almost all the options a w210 could have
2007 Chevy 2500HD CCSB Duramax with about 400-500 rwhp depending on the tune I use
1983 300D Silver Exterior/Black inside - Sold and will be missed, may we never meet in a PnP.
$500 would buy several VNT turbos though, and a control system is easy to build.
ForcedInduction
03-12-2010, 07:03 AM
#4
No reason why it wouldn't work. Its basically the same concept as a VNT but on a less efficient level.
$500 would buy several VNT turbos though, and a control system is easy to build.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KNLKVgg8po
Forced, I agree with you on price and less efficiency, but some of us don't have the know-how and the tools to make a controller. Would you consider making controllers and selling them for a profit. I will be the first to buy one from you. For the same reason (lack of tools and know-how) I bought an EGR kit (for testing purposes) from Brian Carlton at peachparts forum.
Ben
Found this on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KNLKVgg8po
Forced, I agree with you on price and less efficiency, but some of us don't have the know-how and the tools to make a controller. Would you consider making controllers and selling them for a profit. I will be the first to buy one from you. For the same reason (lack of tools and know-how) I bought an EGR kit (for testing purposes) from Brian Carlton at peachparts forum.
Ben
I'm currently implementing mechanical control for the GT2056V on my 92 300D. There really isnt anything to it...sheet metal, two actuators, and vac/pressure fittings.
Josh
92 300D 2.5 Turbo - 319k - GT2056V
If you don't already own a turbo with a divided turbine housing, then this isn't really cheaper/easier to implement than a vnt/vgt turbo. $500 is an outrageous price for that valve and VNT turbos sized for our cars can be had for cheap.
I'm currently implementing mechanical control for the GT2056V on my 92 300D. There really isnt anything to it...sheet metal, two actuators, and vac/pressure fittings.
Josh
92 300D 2.5 Turbo - 319k - GT2056V
ForcedInduction
03-12-2010, 06:18 PM
#9
If the vane setting is turned down, lessening its effectiveness, a normal wastegate actuator could be used. It would function identically to a normal wastegated turbo and that divider valve but quicker spooling, not as quick as a proper VNT should though.
I am a chemist by training, the learning curve would be no problem and the reason I bought this car was to have a hobby. I have done few things on it such as installing a 1995 glow plug rely (for after glow), changing all the shocks and spring coils... my main problem is lack of fabrication tools.
Here's my idea for a controller (since we have the same car!)
I'm pretty sure it should work..I have tested the vacuum levels under various driving conditions, but still have yet to put the turbo on the car..one of these days!
I just started working again, which is good because now I'll have money, but also bad because now I can't risk having my car down to install the turbo! Maybe some time this summer.
I encourage other 603 owners to use, build upon, and/or beat me to getting mine up and running.
http://www.superturbodiesel.com/std/has-...t-867.html
Here's my idea for a controller (since we have the same car!)
I'm pretty sure it should work..I have tested the vacuum levels under various driving conditions, but still have yet to put the turbo on the car..one of these days!
I just started working again, which is good because now I'll have money, but also bad because now I can't risk having my car down to install the turbo! Maybe some time this summer.
I encourage other 603 owners to use, build upon, and/or beat me to getting mine up and running.
I have bought this from Germnay, brand new, don't ask about shipping costs!
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?View...078wt_1166
I am ready to go, let's see who finishes first.
Hi Awsrock;
I have bought this from Germnay, brand new, don't ask about shipping costs!
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?View...078wt_1166
I am ready to go, let's see who finishes first.
If you're an engineer I'm sure you can come up with something to make a VGT work properly. I was going through it and it doesn't seem like it's anything all that involved, especially since the mental heavy lifting (ie figuring out how to do it and what's involved) has already been done. I suggest a trip to www.volksrods.com and check out what people have been doing with a lot more ingenuity than investment, though they do cut and weld a lot. However, a portable wire feed welder (if you're not working on heavy, thick parts, this is fine) is less than half the 500 dollar cost of the part mentioned above; and it would pay for itself easily, not the least through acquired skill and knowledge. Go to a welding fabrication shop, the kind that build trailers for landscapers all day and stuff like that, and talk to the guys working there; if you really feel welding is some exclusive talent after that, well, what can I say...no offense to anyone but basically I'm just saying that it's amazing what you'll find you're capable of once you stop fabricating excuses and start fabricating items of worth, whatever that is to you.
I like the crew over at Volksrods, regardless of whether that's your style or not it's cool to see what can be done with almost nothing. Frankly there's little to this particular setup besides swapping out a turbo, fabricating a bracket (it might cost a few bucks to have someone at a shop make one for you) and acquiring the already determined actuators, setting it up and dialing it in. Frankly it's nothing all that scary, perfect for getting your feet wet with a real mod actually. I mean some people would say that pulling the running gear out from under their car is scary...it's really not. Like I said just go to any mechanic's shop, there's bound to be at least one goober hanging around, and then you realize he's by definition a professional who makes his living doing stuff like that all day. I'm sure whatever you do as an engineer would scare the bejeebus out of any of us until we were taught the proper way to do it.
In the end, it's your car, and you'll do what you like, of course. If you want simple, easy, bolt on upgrades, well, I suggest a Honda or an SE-R. This car is a little involved, it's an odd duck for sure (70's era 5 cylinder turbodiesel powered RWD tanks aren't made by many manufacturers, and by any now) and there's effectively no aftermarket. Not that it's outside of anyone's realm of expertise or could be, but it's not a 5.0l Mustang for sure. And thank God for that.
Oh, and one more thing - if you're not up to doing it yourself, or maybe you live in a condo or something and it's just not happening...make friends. That's all the local car nuts whose day job is rebuilding automatic transmissions or repairing light collisions on some mom's Corolla, but who autocross or drag race or circle 8 on weekends or whatever, all have friends at various shops and they all trade out work. It's an envious position to be in if you're into cars, but anyone can make friends. Go to local cruise ins, talk to owners of cars with modifications that you're interested in what they had to go through, who they'd go to locally, etc. The car disease is global, there's some guy in a Beijing garage turbocharging a car we've never heard of right now. And you don't have to find Mercedes guys necessarily, an open minded car nut always wants to make friends with someone who has a car that's cool but something they'd never own. When you get down to it the cars all have more in common than they do different, in general principles if not actual design.
Personally I'd see if they have a return policy, because that can so easily be made from commonly available parts and one easily machined block. Any machine shop could fab that up for almost nothing. 500 dollars my ass, that's a 200 dollar part tops, and I'm being generous, it's for Garrett T series turbos, only the most common kind in the world, not as though it's for some kind of weird, rare turbo or something. List price at 750 bucks! Someone likes to bet on the ponies, I'll bet! The fucking turbo you'd bolt to it costs less!
Seriously, now that I've seen it, fuck that thing. At that price at least, that's a 'for suckers only' piece. It's an insult, really. Ooh, a flange, a butterfly...AND a vacuum actuator? There was drilling involved? Well, it's nice to see this Roswell technology finally hitting the streets. I mean, that's way more than FI's setup cost, even if he'd completely screwed it up the first time and had to start over with all new controller parts. To, basically, do it wrong.
For comparison, I could hit pick a part, turbo charge my 616 with a full 300D exhaust system, then convert it to VGT with the right stuff on it for less than that piece would cost you. If you're a good enough junkyard hound you could probably VGT it for less than the 200 dollar price point I came up with, come to think of it, half price day and all, if the right parts were in the yard.
FYI that little piece of high school shop class excrement is going for as much as or more than a decent laptop, which, FYI, is a fucking computer. Apples to apples comparison in terms of complexity, even accounting for Chinese slave labor, saying these parts are all billet, made in USA, in a Beverly Hills facility, which I doubt these are. Probably made in some shop in the middle of nowhere for a total parts/labor investment of 40 bucks, if it was made in the US at all.
I'm not being a dick, but really, this kind of shit pisses me off, because I've thought about making parts like that. That's why I'm like '200 bucks, tops', because that's as much as you could possibly justify selling it for, and I'd work to get the price down to 3/4 or 1/2 of that as soon as I could. I mean, the Baum tool costs 1/3 of that, and it's designed to, y'know, save your life. I bought my 240D for 700 bucks, it was a running, driving car, complete with a battery and everything. Even an emergency triangle.
Ok, sorry, I guess you get how I feel about that part now
/rant
CID Vicious
03-17-2010, 04:06 PM #14Hi BenE67,
If you're an engineer I'm sure you can come up with something to make a VGT work properly. I was going through it and it doesn't seem like it's anything all that involved, especially since the mental heavy lifting (ie figuring out how to do it and what's involved) has already been done. I suggest a trip to www.volksrods.com and check out what people have been doing with a lot more ingenuity than investment, though they do cut and weld a lot. However, a portable wire feed welder (if you're not working on heavy, thick parts, this is fine) is less than half the 500 dollar cost of the part mentioned above; and it would pay for itself easily, not the least through acquired skill and knowledge. Go to a welding fabrication shop, the kind that build trailers for landscapers all day and stuff like that, and talk to the guys working there; if you really feel welding is some exclusive talent after that, well, what can I say...no offense to anyone but basically I'm just saying that it's amazing what you'll find you're capable of once you stop fabricating excuses and start fabricating items of worth, whatever that is to you.
I like the crew over at Volksrods, regardless of whether that's your style or not it's cool to see what can be done with almost nothing. Frankly there's little to this particular setup besides swapping out a turbo, fabricating a bracket (it might cost a few bucks to have someone at a shop make one for you) and acquiring the already determined actuators, setting it up and dialing it in. Frankly it's nothing all that scary, perfect for getting your feet wet with a real mod actually. I mean some people would say that pulling the running gear out from under their car is scary...it's really not. Like I said just go to any mechanic's shop, there's bound to be at least one goober hanging around, and then you realize he's by definition a professional who makes his living doing stuff like that all day. I'm sure whatever you do as an engineer would scare the bejeebus out of any of us until we were taught the proper way to do it.
In the end, it's your car, and you'll do what you like, of course. If you want simple, easy, bolt on upgrades, well, I suggest a Honda or an SE-R. This car is a little involved, it's an odd duck for sure (70's era 5 cylinder turbodiesel powered RWD tanks aren't made by many manufacturers, and by any now) and there's effectively no aftermarket. Not that it's outside of anyone's realm of expertise or could be, but it's not a 5.0l Mustang for sure. And thank God for that.
Oh, and one more thing - if you're not up to doing it yourself, or maybe you live in a condo or something and it's just not happening...make friends. That's all the local car nuts whose day job is rebuilding automatic transmissions or repairing light collisions on some mom's Corolla, but who autocross or drag race or circle 8 on weekends or whatever, all have friends at various shops and they all trade out work. It's an envious position to be in if you're into cars, but anyone can make friends. Go to local cruise ins, talk to owners of cars with modifications that you're interested in what they had to go through, who they'd go to locally, etc. The car disease is global, there's some guy in a Beijing garage turbocharging a car we've never heard of right now. And you don't have to find Mercedes guys necessarily, an open minded car nut always wants to make friends with someone who has a car that's cool but something they'd never own. When you get down to it the cars all have more in common than they do different, in general principles if not actual design.
Personally I'd see if they have a return policy, because that can so easily be made from commonly available parts and one easily machined block. Any machine shop could fab that up for almost nothing. 500 dollars my ass, that's a 200 dollar part tops, and I'm being generous, it's for Garrett T series turbos, only the most common kind in the world, not as though it's for some kind of weird, rare turbo or something. List price at 750 bucks! Someone likes to bet on the ponies, I'll bet! The fucking turbo you'd bolt to it costs less!
Seriously, now that I've seen it, fuck that thing. At that price at least, that's a 'for suckers only' piece. It's an insult, really. Ooh, a flange, a butterfly...AND a vacuum actuator? There was drilling involved? Well, it's nice to see this Roswell technology finally hitting the streets. I mean, that's way more than FI's setup cost, even if he'd completely screwed it up the first time and had to start over with all new controller parts. To, basically, do it wrong.
For comparison, I could hit pick a part, turbo charge my 616 with a full 300D exhaust system, then convert it to VGT with the right stuff on it for less than that piece would cost you. If you're a good enough junkyard hound you could probably VGT it for less than the 200 dollar price point I came up with, come to think of it, half price day and all, if the right parts were in the yard.
FYI that little piece of high school shop class excrement is going for as much as or more than a decent laptop, which, FYI, is a fucking computer. Apples to apples comparison in terms of complexity, even accounting for Chinese slave labor, saying these parts are all billet, made in USA, in a Beverly Hills facility, which I doubt these are. Probably made in some shop in the middle of nowhere for a total parts/labor investment of 40 bucks, if it was made in the US at all.
I'm not being a dick, but really, this kind of shit pisses me off, because I've thought about making parts like that. That's why I'm like '200 bucks, tops', because that's as much as you could possibly justify selling it for, and I'd work to get the price down to 3/4 or 1/2 of that as soon as I could. I mean, the Baum tool costs 1/3 of that, and it's designed to, y'know, save your life. I bought my 240D for 700 bucks, it was a running, driving car, complete with a battery and everything. Even an emergency triangle.
Ok, sorry, I guess you get how I feel about that part now
/rant
My dad sold used cars for awhile between better jobs, and he told me something one day...
"Son, there's an ass for every seat." You don't always want to be that ass, though.
Yeah, welds, why not screws? Screws seize, they don't melt and fail.
Hey folks, I've got some Orgonite shift knobs for the W123, shorten your shifts in under five minutes...only 150 bucks, of course it's worth every penny
CID Vicious
03-17-2010, 05:49 PM #15I looked at the site further and it's a Chicago area shop, LOL. No kiddin'...I should ask my friends if they know anything about those guys, I wouldn't be surprised if one of the 'neighborhood stories' came out about it, but yeah, total Chicago-style all the way there. How do you think they're building the 350Zs in the banner, but with suckers willing to spend 2010 money on a part that would have been worthwhile in 1982.
My dad sold used cars for awhile between better jobs, and he told me something one day...
"Son, there's an ass for every seat." You don't always want to be that ass, though.
Yeah, welds, why not screws? Screws seize, they don't melt and fail.
Hey folks, I've got some Orgonite shift knobs for the W123, shorten your shifts in under five minutes...only 150 bucks, of course it's worth every penny
(03-15-2010, 08:21 PM)BenE67 Hi Awsrock;
I have bought this from Germnay, brand new, don't ask about shipping costs!
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?View...078wt_1166
I am ready to go, let's see who finishes first.
I just got my adapter plate today!
I still need to get some exhaust pipe to go from the turbo to the connection on the manifold (which I think needs to be taken from the current manifold, since it has 3 studs and the non-egr had only 2). Looks like I might need to get some v-band clamps?
Then I need to tackle the oil lines. I am thinking of getting a spare stock set and fabricating from there. I want to be able to throw my old set up back on in no time in case something doesn't work out.
Let me know what you end up doing for these- I still need to take measurements and find some decent places to buy stuff.
(03-15-2010, 08:21 PM)BenE67 Hi Awsrock;
I have bought this from Germnay, brand new, don't ask about shipping costs!
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?View...078wt_1166
I am ready to go, let's see who finishes first.
I just got my adapter plate today!
I still need to get some exhaust pipe to go from the turbo to the connection on the manifold (which I think needs to be taken from the current manifold, since it has 3 studs and the non-egr had only 2). Looks like I might need to get some v-band clamps?
Then I need to tackle the oil lines. I am thinking of getting a spare stock set and fabricating from there. I want to be able to throw my old set up back on in no time in case something doesn't work out.
Let me know what you end up doing for these- I still need to take measurements and find some decent places to buy stuff.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/vbarti...icleid=122
I think you may have more options with Garrett.
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygar...og1of2.pdf
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygar...og2of2.pdf
This may help a little for Holset:
http://www.turbo-mopar.com/forums/vbarti...icleid=122
I think you may have more options with Garrett.
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygar...og1of2.pdf
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygar...og2of2.pdf
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJEk-yYOHpU
Has anyone seen this? It may be good way to control a VGT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJEk-yYOHpU
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