Installing an OM617.951/952 in a W116
Installing an OM617.951/952 in a W116
03-23-2010, 04:18 AM
#1
Glad to have stumbled across this forum. I've had two (non-turbo) Mercedes diesels in the past - a 1983 240D and a 1976 240D 3.0L (what is the difference between that and a 300D, btw?).
I've been researching cars a lot lately as I've been without one for a couple years, and have pretty much decided on a 1979 or 1980 300SD (W116). My feeling is that the 1980 is the best stock option available, as it has a more powerful engine than the 1979, but if I'm able to swap in an OM617.951 from a newer W123, I'm not sure there's other differences substantial enough to make any difference, and it seems easier to find 1979's for whatever reason. In short (please correct this if wrong as the information on wikipedia seems somewhat inconsistent):
* 1979 300SD stock: 110hp
* 1980 300SD stock: 120hp
* 79/80 300SD with 1983-1985 model of OM617.951 (or 952): 125hp
I'm wondering if anybody has attempted moving an engine from a W123 to a W116 or vice versa and could offer any advice on how well it works, what differences will need to be accounted for, etc.
I also had the intriguing thought of fitting an OM617 into an SEL W116 chassis, basically creating a 300SDL in as old as a 1973 chassis. Is it feasible to change out parts and convert a gasoline vehicle into a diesel, or is that simply far too much effort to bother with?
Greetings everyone!
Glad to have stumbled across this forum. I've had two (non-turbo) Mercedes diesels in the past - a 1983 240D and a 1976 240D 3.0L (what is the difference between that and a 300D, btw?).
I've been researching cars a lot lately as I've been without one for a couple years, and have pretty much decided on a 1979 or 1980 300SD (W116). My feeling is that the 1980 is the best stock option available, as it has a more powerful engine than the 1979, but if I'm able to swap in an OM617.951 from a newer W123, I'm not sure there's other differences substantial enough to make any difference, and it seems easier to find 1979's for whatever reason. In short (please correct this if wrong as the information on wikipedia seems somewhat inconsistent):
* 1979 300SD stock: 110hp
* 1980 300SD stock: 120hp
* 79/80 300SD with 1983-1985 model of OM617.951 (or 952): 125hp
I'm wondering if anybody has attempted moving an engine from a W123 to a W116 or vice versa and could offer any advice on how well it works, what differences will need to be accounted for, etc.
I also had the intriguing thought of fitting an OM617 into an SEL W116 chassis, basically creating a 300SDL in as old as a 1973 chassis. Is it feasible to change out parts and convert a gasoline vehicle into a diesel, or is that simply far too much effort to bother with?
03-23-2010, 01:00 PM
#2
(03-23-2010, 04:18 AM)Raptelan Greetings everyone!
Glad to have stumbled across this forum. I've had two (non-turbo) Mercedes diesels in the past - a 1983 240D and a 1976 240D 3.0L (what is the difference between that and a 300D, btw?).
I've been researching cars a lot lately as I've been without one for a couple years, and have pretty much decided on a 1979 or 1980 300SD (W116). My feeling is that the 1980 is the best stock option available, as it has a more powerful engine than the 1979, but if I'm able to swap in an OM617.951 from a newer W123, I'm not sure there's other differences substantial enough to make any difference, and it seems easier to find 1979's for whatever reason. In short (please correct this if wrong as the information on wikipedia seems somewhat inconsistent):
* 1979 300SD stock: 110hp
* 1980 300SD stock: 120hp
* 79/80 300SD with 1983-1985 model of OM617.951 (or 952): 125hp
I'm wondering if anybody has attempted moving an engine from a W123 to a W116 or vice versa and could offer any advice on how well it works, what differences will need to be accounted for, etc.
I also had the intriguing thought of fitting an OM617 into an SEL W116 chassis, basically creating a 300SDL in as old as a 1973 chassis. Is it feasible to change out parts and convert a gasoline vehicle into a diesel, or is that simply far too much effort to bother with?
I'm sure it's been done and probably done a lot. Are you willing to do some metal fabrication? that's usually needed to do any engine swap. The good news is you shouldn't need to modify your old engine mount arms.
I don't know the w116 chassis but generally speaking, here are the things to consider when swapping engines:
- radiator will need to handle more heat dissipation (needs thicker/more efficient core)
- make sure oil pan from new engine is shaped to clear any obstructions (cross member, axle, what ever)
- does existing transmission handle the extra Hp? if so, then leave it in place, if not, then what linkage and wire harness changes need to happen?
- accessories (water pump, vacuum pump, A/C, etc) are in different spots on the OM617A. you might be able to swap over all the original brackets and accessories but if you can fit the newer parts, it might be best to bring them over. do they fit? do they clear the stearing box or other things?
- need bigger air intake - can you fit the donor car's air intake system? or fabricate some aftermarket intake?
- oil cooler lines might be the same - check to be sure they match up
Those are my quick thoughts. others might have more to add.
Search around, you might find someone's already written up the conversion for that car.
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
(03-23-2010, 04:18 AM)Raptelan Greetings everyone!
Glad to have stumbled across this forum. I've had two (non-turbo) Mercedes diesels in the past - a 1983 240D and a 1976 240D 3.0L (what is the difference between that and a 300D, btw?).
I've been researching cars a lot lately as I've been without one for a couple years, and have pretty much decided on a 1979 or 1980 300SD (W116). My feeling is that the 1980 is the best stock option available, as it has a more powerful engine than the 1979, but if I'm able to swap in an OM617.951 from a newer W123, I'm not sure there's other differences substantial enough to make any difference, and it seems easier to find 1979's for whatever reason. In short (please correct this if wrong as the information on wikipedia seems somewhat inconsistent):
* 1979 300SD stock: 110hp
* 1980 300SD stock: 120hp
* 79/80 300SD with 1983-1985 model of OM617.951 (or 952): 125hp
I'm wondering if anybody has attempted moving an engine from a W123 to a W116 or vice versa and could offer any advice on how well it works, what differences will need to be accounted for, etc.
I also had the intriguing thought of fitting an OM617 into an SEL W116 chassis, basically creating a 300SDL in as old as a 1973 chassis. Is it feasible to change out parts and convert a gasoline vehicle into a diesel, or is that simply far too much effort to bother with?
I'm sure it's been done and probably done a lot. Are you willing to do some metal fabrication? that's usually needed to do any engine swap. The good news is you shouldn't need to modify your old engine mount arms.
I don't know the w116 chassis but generally speaking, here are the things to consider when swapping engines:
- radiator will need to handle more heat dissipation (needs thicker/more efficient core)
- make sure oil pan from new engine is shaped to clear any obstructions (cross member, axle, what ever)
- does existing transmission handle the extra Hp? if so, then leave it in place, if not, then what linkage and wire harness changes need to happen?
- accessories (water pump, vacuum pump, A/C, etc) are in different spots on the OM617A. you might be able to swap over all the original brackets and accessories but if you can fit the newer parts, it might be best to bring them over. do they fit? do they clear the stearing box or other things?
- need bigger air intake - can you fit the donor car's air intake system? or fabricate some aftermarket intake?
- oil cooler lines might be the same - check to be sure they match up
Those are my quick thoughts. others might have more to add.
Search around, you might find someone's already written up the conversion for that car.
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
ForcedInduction
03-24-2010, 09:02 AM
#3
Swap the valvetrain and adjust the IP and you'll have your 15hp.
03-25-2010, 10:07 AM
#4
(03-23-2010, 01:00 PM)Syncro_G I don't know the w116 chassis but generally speaking, here are the things to consider when swapping engines:
- radiator will need to handle more heat dissipation (needs thicker/more efficient core)
- make sure oil pan from new engine is shaped to clear any obstructions (cross member, axle, what ever)
- does existing transmission handle the extra Hp? if so, then leave it in place, if not, then what linkage and wire harness changes need to happen?
- accessories (water pump, vacuum pump, A/C, etc) are in different spots on the OM617A. you might be able to swap over all the original brackets and accessories but if you can fit the newer parts, it might be best to bring them over. do they fit? do they clear the stearing box or other things?
- need bigger air intake - can you fit the donor car's air intake system? or fabricate some aftermarket intake?
- oil cooler lines might be the same - check to be sure they match up
Since there is only 15HP, the transmission, radiator (same one in the 120HP '80 I'm pretty sure), accessories are all the same.
My old white '79 300SD had a 617.951 or 952 in it. There were a few minor things like you needed a different vacuum line from the pump to the booster... nothing major, and not really something you can figure out till you put the engine in the car.
The one thing you will HAVE to do is change the oil pan. The later engine oil pans will not clear the front sub-frame. Other than that I think it's pretty much drop-in.
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!!
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way!
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
(03-23-2010, 01:00 PM)Syncro_G I don't know the w116 chassis but generally speaking, here are the things to consider when swapping engines:
- radiator will need to handle more heat dissipation (needs thicker/more efficient core)
- make sure oil pan from new engine is shaped to clear any obstructions (cross member, axle, what ever)
- does existing transmission handle the extra Hp? if so, then leave it in place, if not, then what linkage and wire harness changes need to happen?
- accessories (water pump, vacuum pump, A/C, etc) are in different spots on the OM617A. you might be able to swap over all the original brackets and accessories but if you can fit the newer parts, it might be best to bring them over. do they fit? do they clear the stearing box or other things?
- need bigger air intake - can you fit the donor car's air intake system? or fabricate some aftermarket intake?
- oil cooler lines might be the same - check to be sure they match up
Since there is only 15HP, the transmission, radiator (same one in the 120HP '80 I'm pretty sure), accessories are all the same.
My old white '79 300SD had a 617.951 or 952 in it. There were a few minor things like you needed a different vacuum line from the pump to the booster... nothing major, and not really something you can figure out till you put the engine in the car.
The one thing you will HAVE to do is change the oil pan. The later engine oil pans will not clear the front sub-frame. Other than that I think it's pretty much drop-in.
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!!
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way!
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
03-25-2010, 11:29 AM
#5
(03-25-2010, 10:07 AM)Tymbrymi The one thing you will HAVE to do is change the oil pan. The later engine oil pans will not clear the front sub-frame. Other than that I think it's pretty much drop-in.
Tymbrymi -
What pan would you use? the N/A oil pan is quite different than the turbo pan. The blocks are quite different at the parting face. This has been a dilemma with G-wagen swaps because the stock 300GD oil pan will not fit the newer turbo block so custom engine mounts or suspension changes are necessary in that application to clear the front differential.
Additionally, the turbo pan is gusseted at the rear to withstand the extra torque of the turbo motor
-Christian
This post was last modified: 03-25-2010, 11:30 AM by Syncro_G.
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
(03-25-2010, 10:07 AM)Tymbrymi The one thing you will HAVE to do is change the oil pan. The later engine oil pans will not clear the front sub-frame. Other than that I think it's pretty much drop-in.
Tymbrymi -
What pan would you use? the N/A oil pan is quite different than the turbo pan. The blocks are quite different at the parting face. This has been a dilemma with G-wagen swaps because the stock 300GD oil pan will not fit the newer turbo block so custom engine mounts or suspension changes are necessary in that application to clear the front differential.
Additionally, the turbo pan is gusseted at the rear to withstand the extra torque of the turbo motor
-Christian
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
03-25-2010, 11:39 AM
#6
(03-25-2010, 11:29 AM)Syncro_G What pan would you use? the N/A oil pan is quite different than the turbo pan. The blocks are quite different at the parting face. This has been a dilemma with G-wagen swaps because the stock 300GD oil pan will not fit the newer turbo block so custom engine mounts or suspension changes are necessary in that application to clear the front differential.
Additionally, the turbo pan is gusseted at the rear to withstand the extra torque of the turbo motor
I believe the OP was talking about replacing the stock 617 turbo, with one from a W123 or W126 which has about 15 extra HP. In that case I would just use the W116 pan. IIRC, the W116 doesn't have anywhere the gusseting that the .951 and .952 engines have, but I have no idea how much it has relative to the NA engines. I know nothing about the G class... maybe I can take a picture of the W116 oil pan for you?
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!!
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way!
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
(03-25-2010, 11:29 AM)Syncro_G What pan would you use? the N/A oil pan is quite different than the turbo pan. The blocks are quite different at the parting face. This has been a dilemma with G-wagen swaps because the stock 300GD oil pan will not fit the newer turbo block so custom engine mounts or suspension changes are necessary in that application to clear the front differential.
Additionally, the turbo pan is gusseted at the rear to withstand the extra torque of the turbo motor
I believe the OP was talking about replacing the stock 617 turbo, with one from a W123 or W126 which has about 15 extra HP. In that case I would just use the W116 pan. IIRC, the W116 doesn't have anywhere the gusseting that the .951 and .952 engines have, but I have no idea how much it has relative to the NA engines. I know nothing about the G class... maybe I can take a picture of the W116 oil pan for you?
John Robbins
'05 E320 CDI - 118k - Faaaaaast!!
'87 300TD - 317k - Cracked head... but an OM606 is on the way!
'79 300SD - 295k - Bad engine = project car!
03-25-2010, 10:44 PM
#7
(03-25-2010, 11:39 AM)Tymbrymi I believe the OP was talking about replacing the stock 617 turbo, with one from a W123 or W126 which has about 15 extra HP. In that case I would just use the W116 pan. IIRC, the W116 doesn't have anywhere the gusseting that the .951 and .952 engines have, but I have no idea how much it has relative to the NA engines. I know nothing about the G class... maybe I can take a picture of the W116 oil pan for you?
Ok, older to newer turbo--it makes sense now. So the OP's swap should be really easy as you say.
If convenient, a picture would be great.
The G didn't come with a 617a so oil pans never did swap over.
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
(03-25-2010, 11:39 AM)Tymbrymi I believe the OP was talking about replacing the stock 617 turbo, with one from a W123 or W126 which has about 15 extra HP. In that case I would just use the W116 pan. IIRC, the W116 doesn't have anywhere the gusseting that the .951 and .952 engines have, but I have no idea how much it has relative to the NA engines. I know nothing about the G class... maybe I can take a picture of the W116 oil pan for you?
Ok, older to newer turbo--it makes sense now. So the OP's swap should be really easy as you say.
If convenient, a picture would be great.
The G didn't come with a 617a so oil pans never did swap over.
-------------
'84 G-Wagen turbodiesel
'75 240D 4-Speed
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