603 in 38" W463 ,need tuning advise
603 in 38" W463 ,need tuning advise
I have MB W463 with 603.960 used in offroad driving.
http://manaskal.123.is/album/default.asp...072&vt=all
I would like to heat it up a little, maby 200-250hp but I´m most interested in low rpm power. I already have intercooler.
I have been reading this pages a lot but I have not been able to answere all my questions.
What do you requment,
I think I will go for 6,5-7mm elements (myna) and some turbo that gives me pressure at low rpm (as posseble)
What torbine will give me the best result and are fearly easy to install?
Wich header is the strongest?
Thanks you wery much.
Atli
Hi guys.
I have MB W463 with 603.960 used in offroad driving.
http://manaskal.123.is/album/default.asp...072&vt=all
I would like to heat it up a little, maby 200-250hp but I´m most interested in low rpm power. I already have intercooler.
I have been reading this pages a lot but I have not been able to answere all my questions.
What do you requment,
I think I will go for 6,5-7mm elements (myna) and some turbo that gives me pressure at low rpm (as posseble)
What torbine will give me the best result and are fearly easy to install?
Wich header is the strongest?
Thanks you wery much.
Atli
I am working on doing the same thing with my car...you've got the intercooler covered so the next thing is to get your injector pump tuned to put out more fuel. Then you can add a larger turbo. There is a company in Finnland called Myna Diesel that can tune your pump with larger elements, but it is expensive and probably more power capability than you want. The other option may be available here in the states shortly; Tomnik has found some high quality 7.5mm elements and Derv has been getting with him and installing and tuning them in a pump. So far they have not done one of our pumps though. Hopefully it will be next in line!
jonbobshinigin
04-23-2010, 08:42 AM #2Well, I've got the same engine in my wagon. I've wanted a Gwagen with a 603 swap for some time now...Nice looking vehicle!
I am working on doing the same thing with my car...you've got the intercooler covered so the next thing is to get your injector pump tuned to put out more fuel. Then you can add a larger turbo. There is a company in Finnland called Myna Diesel that can tune your pump with larger elements, but it is expensive and probably more power capability than you want. The other option may be available here in the states shortly; Tomnik has found some high quality 7.5mm elements and Derv has been getting with him and installing and tuning them in a pump. So far they have not done one of our pumps though. Hopefully it will be next in line!
(04-23-2010, 01:10 PM)GREASY_BEAST What kind of wheels are those? I want some for my 300TD!
If you want low rpm power, make sure you don't get too big a turbo. It won't spool quickly enough to make power at low rpm. Consider a VNT, twin-charging (supercharger + turbocharger), or even compound turbochargers (best option IMO, but hardest to get right).
My truck is on 38"x15.5x15 on 13"wight rims, it is working very well on snow and are also fine in daily drive.
I´m no expert in turbos but why should it not work to use same turbo as in the big diesel engines as cummings, they are not turning fast and have plenty power.
I rather wont to move the power lower in rpm than higher if that is possible. But at least get some more air and fuel in when it is needed and also keep fairly good mile pr gallon rate. I am willing to pay $ for the mod but i don´t wont a gas gusler.
(04-23-2010, 01:10 PM)GREASY_BEAST What kind of wheels are those? I want some for my 300TD!
If you want low rpm power, make sure you don't get too big a turbo. It won't spool quickly enough to make power at low rpm. Consider a VNT, twin-charging (supercharger + turbocharger), or even compound turbochargers (best option IMO, but hardest to get right).
My truck is on 38"x15.5x15 on 13"wight rims, it is working very well on snow and are also fine in daily drive.
I´m no expert in turbos but why should it not work to use same turbo as in the big diesel engines as cummings, they are not turning fast and have plenty power.
I rather wont to move the power lower in rpm than higher if that is possible. But at least get some more air and fuel in when it is needed and also keep fairly good mile pr gallon rate. I am willing to pay $ for the mod but i don´t wont a gas gusler.
From garrett anything from GT2052V and upwards will work. Look at audi and mercedes modern diesels of similar size for those.
Holset make some variable vane turbos, but you should go to a website like www.4btswaps.com to see people successfully using them. Do not be put off by the failed attempts here.
A variable vane turbo (VNT or VGT) will be neeed for offroad work. As you know the turbo combinations that work well in cars do not provide enough low rpm boost for a 4wd offroad.
From garrett anything from GT2052V and upwards will work. Look at audi and mercedes modern diesels of similar size for those.
Holset make some variable vane turbos, but you should go to a website like www.4btswaps.com to see people successfully using them. Do not be put off by the failed attempts here.
(04-23-2010, 10:24 PM)GREASY_BEAST(04-23-2010, 10:17 PM)Kiwibacon A variable vane turbo (VNT or VGT) will be neeed for offroad work. As you know the turbo combinations that work well in cars do not provide enough low rpm boost for a 4wd offroad.
What about a suitably designed compound setup? One set up for 300hp would have a pretty small HP turbo.
A potentially great option. But space can be a problem.
(04-23-2010, 10:24 PM)GREASY_BEAST(04-23-2010, 10:17 PM)Kiwibacon A variable vane turbo (VNT or VGT) will be neeed for offroad work. As you know the turbo combinations that work well in cars do not provide enough low rpm boost for a 4wd offroad.
What about a suitably designed compound setup? One set up for 300hp would have a pretty small HP turbo.
A potentially great option. But space can be a problem.
I just bought orginal sprinter rims and a guy here in Iceland moved the center of the rim to made it fit G class and the widened it to 13"(can be as wide as 21" as far as I know, and that is used with 44" weels and bigger)
(04-23-2010, 05:16 PM)GREASY_BEAST(04-23-2010, 05:03 PM)Atli My truck is on 38"x15.5x15 on 13"wight rims, it is working very well on snow and are also fine in daily drive.
Wow, 15" by 13" wide.. I'd put those on my 300TD with some low profile tires, would be sweet. Kind of like what the VW guys do, but bigger. What company makes them?
Quote:I´m no expert in turbos but why should it not work to use same turbo as in the big diesel engines as cummings, they are not turning fast and have plenty power.
The problem is your engine has 3 liters displacement whereas a cummins, ford, etc has twice that or more. More exhaust flow means the turbo spools sooner, meaning the engine makes power at low rpm. Put the same big turbo on your engine and it won't spool until high up in the rev range. So your engine will be completely dead until near max rpm, where all of a sudden you get this huge rush of power. This is not what you want.
Quote:I rather wont to move the power lower in rpm than higher if that is possible. But at least get some more air and fuel in when it is needed and also keep fairly good mile pr gallon rate. I am willing to pay $ for the mod but i don´t wont a gas gusler.
Then what you need is to get the appropriate turbo for your application. Not the biggest one you can lay your hands on. If you define how much max HP you want, that's a good place to start. Then you will try to figure out whether it will provide airflow at the low rpms you are looking for. If you can't find a turbo that will satisfy both these requirements, then you will need to look to another option.
I would be happy with everything from 200-250HP max 300.
Maby I can get that with 6mm elements and the orginal kkk turbine ore buy GT2052V?
Do you know if Boch has "running plan" for 6mm elements in 603?
Were can I buy 6-7,5mm elements and can anybody provide the "running plan"(the figures to adjust after) for those oversize elements?
http://cgi.ebay.de/Nissan-Patrol-Terrano...665wt_1030
Do you think this turbine spins up faster and provide more air than my orginal one? (better, worse ore not worth it?)
thanks for the help
Wow, 15" by 13" wide.. I'd put those on my 300TD with some low profile tires, would be sweet. Kind of like what the VW guys do, but bigger. What company makes them?
I just bought orginal sprinter rims and a guy here in Iceland moved the center of the rim to made it fit G class and the widened it to 13"(can be as wide as 21" as far as I know, and that is used with 44" weels and bigger)
(04-23-2010, 05:16 PM)GREASY_BEAST(04-23-2010, 05:03 PM)Atli My truck is on 38"x15.5x15 on 13"wight rims, it is working very well on snow and are also fine in daily drive.
Wow, 15" by 13" wide.. I'd put those on my 300TD with some low profile tires, would be sweet. Kind of like what the VW guys do, but bigger. What company makes them?
Quote:I´m no expert in turbos but why should it not work to use same turbo as in the big diesel engines as cummings, they are not turning fast and have plenty power.
The problem is your engine has 3 liters displacement whereas a cummins, ford, etc has twice that or more. More exhaust flow means the turbo spools sooner, meaning the engine makes power at low rpm. Put the same big turbo on your engine and it won't spool until high up in the rev range. So your engine will be completely dead until near max rpm, where all of a sudden you get this huge rush of power. This is not what you want.
Quote:I rather wont to move the power lower in rpm than higher if that is possible. But at least get some more air and fuel in when it is needed and also keep fairly good mile pr gallon rate. I am willing to pay $ for the mod but i don´t wont a gas gusler.
Then what you need is to get the appropriate turbo for your application. Not the biggest one you can lay your hands on. If you define how much max HP you want, that's a good place to start. Then you will try to figure out whether it will provide airflow at the low rpms you are looking for. If you can't find a turbo that will satisfy both these requirements, then you will need to look to another option.
I would be happy with everything from 200-250HP max 300.
Maby I can get that with 6mm elements and the orginal kkk turbine ore buy GT2052V?
Do you know if Boch has "running plan" for 6mm elements in 603?
Were can I buy 6-7,5mm elements and can anybody provide the "running plan"(the figures to adjust after) for those oversize elements?
http://cgi.ebay.de/Nissan-Patrol-Terrano...665wt_1030
Do you think this turbine spins up faster and provide more air than my orginal one? (better, worse ore not worth it?)
thanks for the help
Try to find a GT22, maybe used < 150 EUR.
Next look for an injection shop and discuss the swap for larger elements.
This will show you whether they do it at all and how much they know about it.
It does not make sense to force a "standard shop" to do the swap and provide the modified adjustment instructions.
For the 603 IP there are 6, 7 and 7.5mm elements available.
Depending on specialists for the swap in Iceland it might be a plan to get a modified IP shipped completely.
Tom
the turbo in your ebay link is only GT20 and a bit expensive...
Try to find a GT22, maybe used < 150 EUR.
Next look for an injection shop and discuss the swap for larger elements.
This will show you whether they do it at all and how much they know about it.
It does not make sense to force a "standard shop" to do the swap and provide the modified adjustment instructions.
For the 603 IP there are 6, 7 and 7.5mm elements available.
Depending on specialists for the swap in Iceland it might be a plan to get a modified IP shipped completely.
Tom
ForcedInduction
04-25-2010, 11:25 PM
#8
For a 603 you shouldn't go anything less than a GT2359V. A GT2052V is too small even for a stock engine.
If a GT22 is rare there have somebody in the states mail one. They are all over the place in Sprinters here. An arrangement to relay-mail one from eBay wouldn't be hard or overly expensive to set up.
ForcedInduction
04-26-2010, 01:35 AM
#10
Right but a 52mm compressor would be on the edge of supporting a stock engine. The airflow for 200-300hp would be well past its choke/RPM limits. Even the 56mm would strain to get near that.
If a GT22 is rare there have somebody in the states mail one. They are all over the place in Sprinters here. An arrangement to relay-mail one from eBay wouldn't be hard or overly expensive to set up.
(04-25-2010, 11:19 PM)tomnik the turbo in your ebay link is only GT20 and a bit expensive...
Try to find a GT22, maybe used < 150 EUR.
Next look for an injection shop and discuss the swap for larger elements.
This will show you whether they do it at all and how much they know about it.
It does not make sense to force a "standard shop" to do the swap and provide the modified adjustment instructions.
For the 603 IP there are 6, 7 and 7.5mm elements available.
Depending on specialists for the swap in Iceland it might be a plan to get a modified IP shipped completely.
Tom
ok I will look for GT22 (found one on ebay for $1150, I hope I can find one cheeper)
I have talked to the guys that are fixing Bosch pumps heare in Iceland and they told me that they will only do orginal pumps exept if I can get them the biger elements and a running plan (how to ajust it)
Do you think GT22 and 6mm pump elements will give me 200hp ore should I try to find 6.5mm ore 7mm with the GT22?
It is easy for me to bring the pump for modification, I work with airliner and fly for free, the problem is just were to go.
Thanks
(04-25-2010, 11:19 PM)tomnik the turbo in your ebay link is only GT20 and a bit expensive...
Try to find a GT22, maybe used < 150 EUR.
Next look for an injection shop and discuss the swap for larger elements.
This will show you whether they do it at all and how much they know about it.
It does not make sense to force a "standard shop" to do the swap and provide the modified adjustment instructions.
For the 603 IP there are 6, 7 and 7.5mm elements available.
Depending on specialists for the swap in Iceland it might be a plan to get a modified IP shipped completely.
Tom
ok I will look for GT22 (found one on ebay for $1150, I hope I can find one cheeper)
I have talked to the guys that are fixing Bosch pumps heare in Iceland and they told me that they will only do orginal pumps exept if I can get them the biger elements and a running plan (how to ajust it)
Do you think GT22 and 6mm pump elements will give me 200hp ore should I try to find 6.5mm ore 7mm with the GT22?
It is easy for me to bring the pump for modification, I work with airliner and fly for free, the problem is just were to go.
Thanks
If this pump works fine then this might be a place to go, but let me check the results first.
Personally I doubt that 6mm elements combined with a GT22 will give you more than 200hp.
What is the clearance from exhaust flange to chassis on your car?
What is your IP number?
Tom
I expect an IP back from modification end of this week.
If this pump works fine then this might be a place to go, but let me check the results first.
Personally I doubt that 6mm elements combined with a GT22 will give you more than 200hp.
What is the clearance from exhaust flange to chassis on your car?
What is your IP number?
Tom
(04-26-2010, 05:25 AM)tomnik Personally I doubt that 6mm elements combined with a GT22 will give you more than 200hp.
A stock 606 can make close to 220hp with just a chip so a 603 with 6mm elements should be good for a hazy 200hp with them. 7mm or 7.5mm would probably more efficient moving that much fuel though (shorter duration).
ForcedInduction
04-26-2010, 05:34 AM
#13
(04-26-2010, 05:25 AM)tomnik Personally I doubt that 6mm elements combined with a GT22 will give you more than 200hp.
A stock 606 can make close to 220hp with just a chip so a 603 with 6mm elements should be good for a hazy 200hp with them. 7mm or 7.5mm would probably more efficient moving that much fuel though (shorter duration).
60mg/plunger stroke, which is approx. 72-75ccm/1000.
Unfortunately this engine is in a boat so we will not have dyno numbers. But the 72-75ccm sound reasonable.
The IP got M75 Floyd elements and was adjusted accordingly.
Tom
a guy calculated the necessary fuel for a 602 (2,5l turbodiesel) for 210-220 hp according to what he did in the past for VW and Audi projects.
60mg/plunger stroke, which is approx. 72-75ccm/1000.
Unfortunately this engine is in a boat so we will not have dyno numbers. But the 72-75ccm sound reasonable.
The IP got M75 Floyd elements and was adjusted accordingly.
Tom
(04-26-2010, 05:25 AM)tomnik I expect an IP back from modification end of this week.
If this pump works fine then this might be a place to go, but let me check the results first.
Personally I doubt that 6mm elements combined with a GT22 will give you more than 200hp.
What is the clearance from exhaust flange to chassis on your car?
What is your IP number?
Tom
ok are you puting 7.5mm elements in yours?
Who are doing your pump and were in the world are they!
my Ip : RES 6M 55C 320 RS157
my Turbo KKK DB 003 096 3299
ALT NR 88 51112109
AUSF NR 5324970 6702
With this turbine installed I only have 50mm from the edge of the turbine to the chassis. I dont have the exhaust flange installed so I cant mesure from the flange ti chassis
Can I use camshaft from non turbo 603 in an turdo 603?
And I wont tu use the camshaft from 300GD (603 no turbo) in my 603 960 (turbo)
(04-26-2010, 05:25 AM)tomnik I expect an IP back from modification end of this week.
If this pump works fine then this might be a place to go, but let me check the results first.
Personally I doubt that 6mm elements combined with a GT22 will give you more than 200hp.
What is the clearance from exhaust flange to chassis on your car?
What is your IP number?
Tom
ok are you puting 7.5mm elements in yours?
Who are doing your pump and were in the world are they!
my Ip : RES 6M 55C 320 RS157
my Turbo KKK DB 003 096 3299
ALT NR 88 51112109
AUSF NR 5324970 6702
With this turbine installed I only have 50mm from the edge of the turbine to the chassis. I dont have the exhaust flange installed so I cant mesure from the flange ti chassis
Can I use camshaft from non turbo 603 in an turdo 603?
And I wont tu use the camshaft from 300GD (603 no turbo) in my 603 960 (turbo)
The IP is done in Germany (Berlin).
Please provide the IP number 0 400 076 ???
I will post a photo of the available space in the 124 chassis so you can compare it to yours. Or you can measure from bloc to chassis in the area where the turbo will be.
Why do you think about to use the cam off the non turbo?
I am not sure but the cams may not be interchangable.
Tom
yes, 7.5mm Floyd
The IP is done in Germany (Berlin).
Please provide the IP number 0 400 076 ???
I will post a photo of the available space in the 124 chassis so you can compare it to yours. Or you can measure from bloc to chassis in the area where the turbo will be.
Why do you think about to use the cam off the non turbo?
I am not sure but the cams may not be interchangable.
Tom
(04-26-2010, 07:36 AM)tomnik yes, 7.5mm Floyd
The IP is done in Germany (Berlin).
Please provide the IP number 0 400 076 ???
I will post a photo of the available space in the 124 chassis so you can compare it to yours. Or you can measure from bloc to chassis in the area where the turbo will be.
Why do you think about to use the cam off the non turbo?
I am not sure but the cams may not be interchangable.
Tom
ok Berlin is an easy trip for me, If your pump will work well I hope I can get some info about those guys.
IP is 0400 076 986 Does that tell you somthing?
The space I have with the orginal turbo in is 50mm, if take the turbo off the I have 180mm from flags to chassis.
Does GT22 take much more space then the orginal KKK?
I have camshaft from the orginal engine in my car, I was told that there were not the same the cam in 603 for G as in 603 for E class. I thing it is better to use G cam if it provides more tork then E cam. The one I have now is not in good condition an a new will cost me $415.
(04-26-2010, 07:36 AM)tomnik yes, 7.5mm Floyd
The IP is done in Germany (Berlin).
Please provide the IP number 0 400 076 ???
I will post a photo of the available space in the 124 chassis so you can compare it to yours. Or you can measure from bloc to chassis in the area where the turbo will be.
Why do you think about to use the cam off the non turbo?
I am not sure but the cams may not be interchangable.
Tom
ok Berlin is an easy trip for me, If your pump will work well I hope I can get some info about those guys.
IP is 0400 076 986 Does that tell you somthing?
The space I have with the orginal turbo in is 50mm, if take the turbo off the I have 180mm from flags to chassis.
Does GT22 take much more space then the orginal KKK?
I have camshaft from the orginal engine in my car, I was told that there were not the same the cam in 603 for G as in 603 for E class. I thing it is better to use G cam if it provides more tork then E cam. The one I have now is not in good condition an a new will cost me $415.
http://cgi.ebay.de/Turbolader-Mercedes-S...728wt_1165
Would this be possible to use?
This is probably VGT, have you guys managed to control VGT and have it been working as hoped?
Is this GT23?
http://cgi.ebay.de/Turbolader-Mercedes-S...728wt_1165
Would this be possible to use?
This is probably VGT, have you guys managed to control VGT and have it been working as hoped?
Do you really want to spend this amount of money??
here is a GT22 (used): http://cgi.ebay.de/BMW-X3-3-0d-3er-E46-3...3efef73983
Mechanical controller is done by ForcedInduction.
As far as I know an electronic one not yet (still in progress, but in my case with the electronic actuator instead of the vac).
For the 124 chassis and stock location of the turbo there is a limit of 160-170 mm for the turbo width (from flange to end of turbine housing).
Tom
the 320 CDI had GT22 and GT23.
Do you really want to spend this amount of money??
here is a GT22 (used): http://cgi.ebay.de/BMW-X3-3-0d-3er-E46-3...3efef73983
Mechanical controller is done by ForcedInduction.
As far as I know an electronic one not yet (still in progress, but in my case with the electronic actuator instead of the vac).
For the 124 chassis and stock location of the turbo there is a limit of 160-170 mm for the turbo width (from flange to end of turbine housing).
Tom
Where can I find mechanical controller on the http://www.forcedinduction.co.nz site?
Let my know how your pump will work when you get it
Thanks.
I am willing to spend some money if I´m ganing somthing. But that used one looks good. Is GT22 bolt on or do I need to mod my exhaust?
Where can I find mechanical controller on the http://www.forcedinduction.co.nz site?
Let my know how your pump will work when you get it
Thanks.
(04-27-2010, 03:21 AM)Atli Is GT22 bolt on or do I need to mod my exhaust?
No bolt on. I prefer to weld a new flange to the turbo and keep the exhaust original.
This used one in the link is near my home. Let me know what you want to pay and I try to get it for that.
I pick it up and weld a flange to it
(04-27-2010, 03:21 AM)Atli Where can I find mechanical controller on the http://www.forcedinduction.co.nz site?
Don't worry about that he will jump in
Tom
(04-27-2010, 03:21 AM)Atli Is GT22 bolt on or do I need to mod my exhaust?
No bolt on. I prefer to weld a new flange to the turbo and keep the exhaust original.
This used one in the link is near my home. Let me know what you want to pay and I try to get it for that.
I pick it up and weld a flange to it
(04-27-2010, 03:21 AM)Atli Where can I find mechanical controller on the http://www.forcedinduction.co.nz site?
Don't worry about that he will jump in
Tom
(04-27-2010, 07:32 AM)tomnik(04-27-2010, 03:21 AM)Atli Is GT22 bolt on or do I need to mod my exhaust?
No bolt on. I prefer to weld a new flange to the turbo and keep the exhaust original.
This used one in the link is near my home. Let me know what you want to pay and I try to get it for that.
I pick it up and weld a flange to it
(04-27-2010, 03:21 AM)Atli Where can I find mechanical controller on the http://www.forcedinduction.co.nz site?
Don't worry about that he will jump in
Tom
Ok Tom, that is a good offer.
I am very interested in getting VGT turbine but I am still strugleing to understand how those how are using VGT are controlling them.
Two questions that I am stop on
Where to get my pump modified?
How to control VGT?
I will defenetly use your help Tom if you are willing to do this and if I can get my head around the things I still do not understand!
Thanks
(04-27-2010, 07:32 AM)tomnik(04-27-2010, 03:21 AM)Atli Is GT22 bolt on or do I need to mod my exhaust?
No bolt on. I prefer to weld a new flange to the turbo and keep the exhaust original.
This used one in the link is near my home. Let me know what you want to pay and I try to get it for that.
I pick it up and weld a flange to it
(04-27-2010, 03:21 AM)Atli Where can I find mechanical controller on the http://www.forcedinduction.co.nz site?
Don't worry about that he will jump in
Tom
Ok Tom, that is a good offer.
I am very interested in getting VGT turbine but I am still strugleing to understand how those how are using VGT are controlling them.
Two questions that I am stop on
Where to get my pump modified?
How to control VGT?
I will defenetly use your help Tom if you are willing to do this and if I can get my head around the things I still do not understand!
Thanks
Myna, Finland
David and Scott in the US
and a guy in Berlin who made my IPs with my elements.
For controlling a VTG do a search in this forum. ForcedInduction has a working mechanical solution running.
Personally I wait for an electronical solution that is in progress as a prototype for me, but the guy prefers the electronic actuator instead of the vac controlled. No idea when this will be available.
Let me see if I can find a link where the function of VTG control is described...
Tom
for the pump modification there are several possibilities:
Myna, Finland
David and Scott in the US
and a guy in Berlin who made my IPs with my elements.
For controlling a VTG do a search in this forum. ForcedInduction has a working mechanical solution running.
Personally I wait for an electronical solution that is in progress as a prototype for me, but the guy prefers the electronic actuator instead of the vac controlled. No idea when this will be available.
Let me see if I can find a link where the function of VTG control is described...
Tom
Now I finally found a turbine. GT2359V pn 17201-17070 it is used Toyota LC100 4.2 diesel.
I guess this is VGT, how is the status on electronic controllers, are anyone close?
Do I need to weld new flage on it?
Is the oil in/output simular to my orginal one?
Do you think this is a better way to go than a t3/t4?
David is tuning my pump, I really hope I vill get some news soon.
Regards
Atli
Hi Guys
Now I finally found a turbine. GT2359V pn 17201-17070 it is used Toyota LC100 4.2 diesel.
I guess this is VGT, how is the status on electronic controllers, are anyone close?
Do I need to weld new flage on it?
Is the oil in/output simular to my orginal one?
Do you think this is a better way to go than a t3/t4?
David is tuning my pump, I really hope I vill get some news soon.
Regards
Atli
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