OM603 marine holset 700 fpt
OM603 marine holset 700 fpt
08-04-2010, 02:12 AM
#1
I have done a deck off restoration on a 20ft cigarette and have and will be using an arneson surface drive and have both in line 1:1 and drop box 1:5.1 to test with my set up..
To spin the propeller I want I need to make 700 to 750 final propeller torque. Now there are two ways to get that amount of torque to my propeller. The first being 1:1 crank hp the prop is directly driven at the same ratio as the engine. very very fast.. The second it to make far less crank hp 400 or so and run a 1:5.1 ratio that will slow my propeller 1.5 to every 1 engine RPM. The reduction will also multiply the torque 1.5 times making 700 fp final propeller torque... The loss of rpm costs speed but the added torque helps boat make plane sooner and hole plane at lower RPM...
I have & built more then one drag car so have a good understanding of how to get a car to hook to the street. I have one latter bar car, one 4 link car and one AWD car all set up for track/street use... Just going by what little I have seen on the web about holset cars they seem to be running stock suspension with tighter springs and struts. I have see that some times guys may put extra disks in the tranny cans and maybe a shift kit , and that some times use a MB posi diff...
So there has to be 100 to 200 hp power loss in the MB drive train if not much more..
There are two places after the power leaves the crankshaft that the drive train gives away hp at least two big places
#1 torque converter or flywheel... #2 the back tires...
You need a racing torque converter or a heavy fly wheel with two or three clutch disks to start. But with no clutch slip the wheels start spinning and if you can get them to stick with slicks and coil overs you'll start braking ring gears and blowing manual tranny..
Dose any one got some engine dyno crank shaft hp # on MB motors with holset turbos?
Dose any one know what the max hp increase is from 5.5mm to 6.0mm and from 7.0mm to 7.5mm?
Dose any one know if any one makes after market h-beam rods or pistons for MB diesels?
Dose any one know the max HP that has been made with the OM617?
Has any one built a OM603.970 or OM603.971 with big rods for big power?
Is the OM606.962 cam shaft interchangeable with the OM603 motors?
I have heard that the IP's will bolt on interchange same block and head casting?
toomuchstuff
08-04-2010, 02:12 AM #1Hi I am new to the site I am here cuz I am thinking of building a OM603.961 holset for marine use...
I have done a deck off restoration on a 20ft cigarette and have and will be using an arneson surface drive and have both in line 1:1 and drop box 1:5.1 to test with my set up..
To spin the propeller I want I need to make 700 to 750 final propeller torque. Now there are two ways to get that amount of torque to my propeller. The first being 1:1 crank hp the prop is directly driven at the same ratio as the engine. very very fast.. The second it to make far less crank hp 400 or so and run a 1:5.1 ratio that will slow my propeller 1.5 to every 1 engine RPM. The reduction will also multiply the torque 1.5 times making 700 fp final propeller torque... The loss of rpm costs speed but the added torque helps boat make plane sooner and hole plane at lower RPM...
I have & built more then one drag car so have a good understanding of how to get a car to hook to the street. I have one latter bar car, one 4 link car and one AWD car all set up for track/street use... Just going by what little I have seen on the web about holset cars they seem to be running stock suspension with tighter springs and struts. I have see that some times guys may put extra disks in the tranny cans and maybe a shift kit , and that some times use a MB posi diff...
So there has to be 100 to 200 hp power loss in the MB drive train if not much more..
There are two places after the power leaves the crankshaft that the drive train gives away hp at least two big places
#1 torque converter or flywheel... #2 the back tires...
You need a racing torque converter or a heavy fly wheel with two or three clutch disks to start. But with no clutch slip the wheels start spinning and if you can get them to stick with slicks and coil overs you'll start braking ring gears and blowing manual tranny..
Dose any one got some engine dyno crank shaft hp # on MB motors with holset turbos?
Dose any one know what the max hp increase is from 5.5mm to 6.0mm and from 7.0mm to 7.5mm?
Dose any one know if any one makes after market h-beam rods or pistons for MB diesels?
Dose any one know the max HP that has been made with the OM617?
Has any one built a OM603.970 or OM603.971 with big rods for big power?
Is the OM606.962 cam shaft interchangeable with the OM603 motors?
I have heard that the IP's will bolt on interchange same block and head casting?
08-04-2010, 07:54 PM
#2
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Jxj...directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Xxj...directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/2Ys...directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/aUy...directlink
This post was last modified: 08-04-2010, 07:55 PM by toomuchstuff.
toomuchstuff
08-04-2010, 07:54 PM #2just some links to let every one know I know how to build a drag car, and have more then one and the wrx is all crower and runs a big aps so I know a thing or two about turbo.. At this time my 350sd is stock.. the last photo is of the cigarette 20'
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Jxj...directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Xxj...directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/2Ys...directlink
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/aUy...directlink
08-04-2010, 09:27 PM
#3
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
08-04-2010, 09:27 PM #3Adding a Holset is a start you will need a lot more fuel via a custom injection pump!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
08-05-2010, 05:26 AM
#4
ForcedInduction
08-05-2010, 05:26 AM
#4
An OM606 or OM613 (E320 CDI) is what you'll need to get near that torque. The 617 won't come anywhere close and the 603 would be strained to get the necessary airflow.
08-05-2010, 05:56 AM
#5
Should be a good match I would think... I also see your going arneson :-) Nice choice, you're my hero now
This post was last modified: 08-05-2010, 05:56 AM by HughF_UK.
I've done a few repower's over here in the UK, a bmw marine and a pair of volvo 130's on 260 drives. The bmw marine had a perkins 2L turbo bolted to it and the volvo's are now running isuzu 1.7's from vauxhall cavalier's... If you want that much power, why not go for a cummins 6bt 12v? No electronics, easy pump and injector upgrades, proven performance etc etc. I know they're heavy but what are you pulling out, mercruiser 5.7?
Should be a good match I would think... I also see your going arneson :-) Nice choice, you're my hero now
08-05-2010, 06:37 AM
#6
As HughF_UK suggested, a 6BTA would do it with bolt-on upgrades for just 266-430hp at 2000-3200rpm. But thats an 1,100lb engine wet.
This post was last modified: 08-05-2010, 06:39 AM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
08-05-2010, 06:37 AM
#6
To get 700lbft 3000-4500rpm (highest sustained RPM for longevity) you'd need 400-600hp out of a 606. However, you'd end up spending about $10,000 on specialized internal upgrades for the engine to handle it.
As HughF_UK suggested, a 6BTA would do it with bolt-on upgrades for just 266-430hp at 2000-3200rpm. But thats an 1,100lb engine wet.
08-05-2010, 08:54 AM
#7
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
Fully original OM606 can make over 400hp and 700nm. And no need even open the engine.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
08-05-2010, 10:18 AM
#8
(08-05-2010, 08:54 AM)jeemu Fully original OM606 can make over 400hp and 700nm.Thats only 3/4 of what he needs.
ForcedInduction
08-05-2010, 10:18 AM
#8
(08-05-2010, 08:54 AM)jeemu Fully original OM606 can make over 400hp and 700nm.Thats only 3/4 of what he needs.
08-05-2010, 11:00 AM
#10
(08-05-2010, 10:18 AM)ForcedInductionI know that, my point was at least that much can original 606 handle.(08-05-2010, 08:54 AM)jeemu Fully original OM606 can make over 400hp and 700nm.Thats only 3/4 of what he needs.
Om606 need only rod change at it can handle 700lb ft.
This post was last modified: 08-05-2010, 11:01 AM by jeemu.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(08-05-2010, 10:18 AM)ForcedInductionI know that, my point was at least that much can original 606 handle.(08-05-2010, 08:54 AM)jeemu Fully original OM606 can make over 400hp and 700nm.Thats only 3/4 of what he needs.
Om606 need only rod change at it can handle 700lb ft.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
08-05-2010, 02:47 PM
#11
(08-05-2010, 11:00 AM)jeemu(08-05-2010, 10:18 AM)ForcedInductionI know that, my point was at least that much can original 606 handle.(08-05-2010, 08:54 AM)jeemu Fully original OM606 can make over 400hp and 700nm.Thats only 3/4 of what he needs.
Om606 need only rod change at it can handle 700lb ft.
What turbo is in this setup?
G300TD(OM606.964) & 250GD(OM605.960)Trophy raid
(08-05-2010, 11:00 AM)jeemu(08-05-2010, 10:18 AM)ForcedInductionI know that, my point was at least that much can original 606 handle.(08-05-2010, 08:54 AM)jeemu Fully original OM606 can make over 400hp and 700nm.Thats only 3/4 of what he needs.
Om606 need only rod change at it can handle 700lb ft.
What turbo is in this setup?
G300TD(OM606.964) & 250GD(OM605.960)Trophy raid
08-05-2010, 02:52 PM
#12
(08-05-2010, 02:47 PM)INCCar where that dyno graph is, was Holset HX40 turbine housing nro17.(08-05-2010, 11:00 AM)jeemu(08-05-2010, 10:18 AM)ForcedInductionI know that, my point was at least that much can original 606 handle.(08-05-2010, 08:54 AM)jeemu Fully original OM606 can make over 400hp and 700nm.Thats only 3/4 of what he needs.
Om606 need only rod change at it can handle 700lb ft.
What turbo is in this setup?
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(08-05-2010, 02:47 PM)INCCar where that dyno graph is, was Holset HX40 turbine housing nro17.(08-05-2010, 11:00 AM)jeemu(08-05-2010, 10:18 AM)ForcedInductionI know that, my point was at least that much can original 606 handle.(08-05-2010, 08:54 AM)jeemu Fully original OM606 can make over 400hp and 700nm.Thats only 3/4 of what he needs.
Om606 need only rod change at it can handle 700lb ft.
What turbo is in this setup?
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
08-05-2010, 03:29 PM
#13
(08-05-2010, 02:52 PM)jeemu(08-05-2010, 02:47 PM)INCCar where that dyno graph is, was Holset HX40 turbine housing nro17.(08-05-2010, 11:00 AM)jeemu(08-05-2010, 10:18 AM)ForcedInductionI know that, my point was at least that much can original 606 handle.(08-05-2010, 08:54 AM)jeemu Fully original OM606 can make over 400hp and 700nm.Thats only 3/4 of what he needs.
Om606 need only rod change at it can handle 700lb ft.
What turbo is in this setup?
Maybe you have some dyno graph with HX35? I need turbo for my daily G300TD. 7,5mm electronic pump is in progress.
G300TD(OM606.964) & 250GD(OM605.960)Trophy raid
(08-05-2010, 02:52 PM)jeemu(08-05-2010, 02:47 PM)INCCar where that dyno graph is, was Holset HX40 turbine housing nro17.(08-05-2010, 11:00 AM)jeemu(08-05-2010, 10:18 AM)ForcedInductionI know that, my point was at least that much can original 606 handle.(08-05-2010, 08:54 AM)jeemu Fully original OM606 can make over 400hp and 700nm.Thats only 3/4 of what he needs.
Om606 need only rod change at it can handle 700lb ft.
What turbo is in this setup?
Maybe you have some dyno graph with HX35? I need turbo for my daily G300TD. 7,5mm electronic pump is in progress.
G300TD(OM606.964) & 250GD(OM605.960)Trophy raid
08-05-2010, 03:58 PM
#14
(08-05-2010, 03:29 PM)INCHi. No i dont have a dyno graph at hx35. Here in Finland not that much used turbo than hx40(08-05-2010, 02:52 PM)jeemu(08-05-2010, 02:47 PM)INCCar where that dyno graph is, was Holset HX40 turbine housing nro17.(08-05-2010, 11:00 AM)jeemu(08-05-2010, 10:18 AM)ForcedInductionI know that, my point was at least that much can original 606 handle.(08-05-2010, 08:54 AM)jeemu Fully original OM606 can make over 400hp and 700nm.Thats only 3/4 of what he needs.
Om606 need only rod change at it can handle 700lb ft.
What turbo is in this setup?
Maybe you have some dyno graph with HX35? I need turbo for my daily G300TD. 7,5mm electronic pump is in progress.
This post was last modified: 08-05-2010, 03:59 PM by jeemu.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(08-05-2010, 03:29 PM)INCHi. No i dont have a dyno graph at hx35. Here in Finland not that much used turbo than hx40(08-05-2010, 02:52 PM)jeemu(08-05-2010, 02:47 PM)INCCar where that dyno graph is, was Holset HX40 turbine housing nro17.(08-05-2010, 11:00 AM)jeemu(08-05-2010, 10:18 AM)ForcedInductionI know that, my point was at least that much can original 606 handle.(08-05-2010, 08:54 AM)jeemu Fully original OM606 can make over 400hp and 700nm.Thats only 3/4 of what he needs.
Om606 need only rod change at it can handle 700lb ft.
What turbo is in this setup?
Maybe you have some dyno graph with HX35? I need turbo for my daily G300TD. 7,5mm electronic pump is in progress.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
08-07-2010, 12:53 AM
#15
(08-05-2010, 05:26 AM)ForcedInduction An OM606 or OM613 (E320 CDI) is what you'll need to get near that torque. The 617 won't come anywhere close and the 603 would be strained to get the necessary airflow.
so the 603's 3.0 and 3.5 have the same head castings? and the 617 have a newer casting and a hi lift cam?
(08-05-2010, 05:56 AM)HughF_UK I've done a few repower's over here in the UK, a bmw marine and a pair of volvo 130's on 260 drives. The bmw marine had a perkins 2L turbo bolted to it and the volvo's are now running isuzu 1.7's from vauxhall cavalier's... If you want that much power, why not go for a cummins 6bt 12v? No electronics, easy pump and injector upgrades, proven performance etc etc. I know they're heavy but what are you pulling out, mercruiser 5.7?
Should be a good match I would think... I also see your going arneson :-) Nice choice, you're my hero now
I have two bmw d7's running my gen sets and two d219 running the 35 bertram I just refitted found them NOS...
The Cummins is a popular motor here and they sell my bmw's now under merc's name exaact same block stroked I think its a d246?
The 6bt turns two slow like 2300 for the low out puts to 3300 for the 400hp.. lots of torque but no rpms to move water....
my bmw's are only 300lbs heaver then the 454's that I pulled, the benz motors will be about the same dressed for marine..
(08-05-2010, 08:54 AM)jeemu Fully original OM606 can make over 400hp and 700nm. And no need even open the engine.
Well this chart shows an engine made 425hp!! at 4200rpm and 416hp at 3600 and reaches its max torque of 564wfpt, the turbo looks to start spooling at 2600 by the nm jump and is on spool by 2900,, here is where the chat gets neat from 3300rpm to 3900rpm you only pick up 30fpt but you pick up 90 hp...
there was no point in going over 4300!!
There was 150hp of drive train power loss... Most likely 200 to 250 spinning big wheels and a steel drive shaft MB converter or clutch buy well be safe and say 150hp of loss...
that makes the crank HP 575 HP at 4300rpm! that is 719 foot pound of torque!
out standing..
I have seen charts from little un built gas engines with turbos like the holset but the lag was nuts like nothing till 2800 then pow 300hp and the engine blows.. but that diesel chat stays kinda constant...
This post was last modified: 08-07-2010, 02:30 AM by toomuchstuff.
toomuchstuff
08-07-2010, 12:53 AM #15(08-05-2010, 05:26 AM)ForcedInduction An OM606 or OM613 (E320 CDI) is what you'll need to get near that torque. The 617 won't come anywhere close and the 603 would be strained to get the necessary airflow.
so the 603's 3.0 and 3.5 have the same head castings? and the 617 have a newer casting and a hi lift cam?
(08-05-2010, 05:56 AM)HughF_UK I've done a few repower's over here in the UK, a bmw marine and a pair of volvo 130's on 260 drives. The bmw marine had a perkins 2L turbo bolted to it and the volvo's are now running isuzu 1.7's from vauxhall cavalier's... If you want that much power, why not go for a cummins 6bt 12v? No electronics, easy pump and injector upgrades, proven performance etc etc. I know they're heavy but what are you pulling out, mercruiser 5.7?
Should be a good match I would think... I also see your going arneson :-) Nice choice, you're my hero now
I have two bmw d7's running my gen sets and two d219 running the 35 bertram I just refitted found them NOS...
The Cummins is a popular motor here and they sell my bmw's now under merc's name exaact same block stroked I think its a d246?
The 6bt turns two slow like 2300 for the low out puts to 3300 for the 400hp.. lots of torque but no rpms to move water....
my bmw's are only 300lbs heaver then the 454's that I pulled, the benz motors will be about the same dressed for marine..
(08-05-2010, 08:54 AM)jeemu Fully original OM606 can make over 400hp and 700nm. And no need even open the engine.
Well this chart shows an engine made 425hp!! at 4200rpm and 416hp at 3600 and reaches its max torque of 564wfpt, the turbo looks to start spooling at 2600 by the nm jump and is on spool by 2900,, here is where the chat gets neat from 3300rpm to 3900rpm you only pick up 30fpt but you pick up 90 hp...
there was no point in going over 4300!!
There was 150hp of drive train power loss... Most likely 200 to 250 spinning big wheels and a steel drive shaft MB converter or clutch buy well be safe and say 150hp of loss...
that makes the crank HP 575 HP at 4300rpm! that is 719 foot pound of torque!
out standing..
I have seen charts from little un built gas engines with turbos like the holset but the lag was nuts like nothing till 2800 then pow 300hp and the engine blows.. but that diesel chat stays kinda constant...
08-07-2010, 09:19 AM
#16
Curious what makes you think there would be up to 200 BHP power-loss over the transmission and final-drive....?
--Surely if that was the case, my old 88 BHP OM.617 Wagon wouldn't even move!--(Or by those figures, go backwards whilst in forward gear!)
I thought the 'Accepted' power-loss was summit around 20-50 BHP according to what type trans etc...?
TBH, I wouldnt even think of a OM.603, It would cost you too much in messing round to get that sort of power....
--Go for a OM.606.96x and modify up that--This is my plan.....
![[Image: 300TDnoplate.jpg]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z128/alastairhcii/300TDnoplate.jpg)
Alastair E
08-07-2010, 09:19 AM #16Hmm...
Curious what makes you think there would be up to 200 BHP power-loss over the transmission and final-drive....?
--Surely if that was the case, my old 88 BHP OM.617 Wagon wouldn't even move!--(Or by those figures, go backwards whilst in forward gear!)
I thought the 'Accepted' power-loss was summit around 20-50 BHP according to what type trans etc...?
TBH, I wouldnt even think of a OM.603, It would cost you too much in messing round to get that sort of power....
--Go for a OM.606.96x and modify up that--This is my plan.....
08-07-2010, 12:34 PM
#17
(08-07-2010, 12:53 AM)toomuchstuff I have seen charts from little un built gas engines with turbos like the holset but the lag was nuts like nothing till 2800If you look at the dyno chart again, thats the case there as well as the engine makes less power than the non-turbo engine until the holset kicks in.
ForcedInduction
08-07-2010, 12:34 PM
#17
(08-07-2010, 12:53 AM)toomuchstuff I have seen charts from little un built gas engines with turbos like the holset but the lag was nuts like nothing till 2800If you look at the dyno chart again, thats the case there as well as the engine makes less power than the non-turbo engine until the holset kicks in.
08-07-2010, 01:43 PM
#18
(08-07-2010, 09:19 AM)Alastair E Hmm...
Curious what makes you think there would be up to 200 BHP power-loss over the transmission and final-drive....?
--Surely if that was the case, my old 88 BHP OM.617 Wagon wouldn't even move!--(Or by those figures, go backwards whilst in forward gear!)
I thought the 'Accepted' power-loss was summit around 20-50 BHP according to what type trans etc...?
TBH, I wouldnt even think of a OM.603, It would cost you too much in messing round to get that sort of power....
--Go for a OM.606.96x and modify up that--This is my plan.....
ever build a drag car,, I can tell you have not.. no your right that 4 link with coils and narrowed dana 60 rear dose nothing to hook the wheels to the road on my 70 cuda. that 40 pound clutch with 3 disks was just to hear the chatter in my wrx... the $$$1000 I have lost, if only we chatted b4!!!
ok power transfer 101 there is a % of power loss in every car so 15% to 25% is a normal power loss pending on rpm range on any factory car. there are dyno charts showing the loss from chp to whp in a factory rated turbo car..
as you add HP the loss from your factory clutch/converter slipping means more of a loss of hp.. any thing u spin is cost hp why they use alum rods... so them factory wheels, drive shaft, ring gear, factory trany with a factory valve body cost big time hp.. your factory car suffers from 30hp of loss but bump only your engine hp up and that % of loss is much, much bigger as you pass factory power ratings... guy just look at some drag cars this stuff is fact. the best of the best deal with 100 to 150 whp loss meaning nascar..
(08-07-2010, 12:34 PM)ForcedInduction(08-07-2010, 12:53 AM)toomuchstuff I have seen charts from little un built gas engines with turbos like the holset but the lag was nuts like nothing till 2800If you look at the dyno chart again, thats the case there as well as the engine makes less power than the non-turbo engine until the holset kicks in.
can you post that chart so we can all see it side by side,, may be help full...
a smaller turbo may help bottom end but for a boat with arnesons you'd need to bring the engine up to at least 3300 to get out of the whole and on to plane and hold plane at 2200.. So 2200 to 3800 is the range I'll be building for. low end is not as important for a boat where you want to run at set rpm, but a car seems like two smaller turbos wold be better suited...
This post was last modified: 08-07-2010, 01:56 PM by toomuchstuff.
toomuchstuff
08-07-2010, 01:43 PM #18(08-07-2010, 09:19 AM)Alastair E Hmm...
Curious what makes you think there would be up to 200 BHP power-loss over the transmission and final-drive....?
--Surely if that was the case, my old 88 BHP OM.617 Wagon wouldn't even move!--(Or by those figures, go backwards whilst in forward gear!)
I thought the 'Accepted' power-loss was summit around 20-50 BHP according to what type trans etc...?
TBH, I wouldnt even think of a OM.603, It would cost you too much in messing round to get that sort of power....
--Go for a OM.606.96x and modify up that--This is my plan.....
ever build a drag car,, I can tell you have not.. no your right that 4 link with coils and narrowed dana 60 rear dose nothing to hook the wheels to the road on my 70 cuda. that 40 pound clutch with 3 disks was just to hear the chatter in my wrx... the $$$1000 I have lost, if only we chatted b4!!!
ok power transfer 101 there is a % of power loss in every car so 15% to 25% is a normal power loss pending on rpm range on any factory car. there are dyno charts showing the loss from chp to whp in a factory rated turbo car..
as you add HP the loss from your factory clutch/converter slipping means more of a loss of hp.. any thing u spin is cost hp why they use alum rods... so them factory wheels, drive shaft, ring gear, factory trany with a factory valve body cost big time hp.. your factory car suffers from 30hp of loss but bump only your engine hp up and that % of loss is much, much bigger as you pass factory power ratings... guy just look at some drag cars this stuff is fact. the best of the best deal with 100 to 150 whp loss meaning nascar..
(08-07-2010, 12:34 PM)ForcedInduction(08-07-2010, 12:53 AM)toomuchstuff I have seen charts from little un built gas engines with turbos like the holset but the lag was nuts like nothing till 2800If you look at the dyno chart again, thats the case there as well as the engine makes less power than the non-turbo engine until the holset kicks in.
can you post that chart so we can all see it side by side,, may be help full...
a smaller turbo may help bottom end but for a boat with arnesons you'd need to bring the engine up to at least 3300 to get out of the whole and on to plane and hold plane at 2200.. So 2200 to 3800 is the range I'll be building for. low end is not as important for a boat where you want to run at set rpm, but a car seems like two smaller turbos wold be better suited...
08-07-2010, 02:24 PM
#20
(08-07-2010, 02:06 PM)MJF Like it says in pic, there is 425,99whp and about 446hp at crank
your correct!
my bad
here's the deal the crank hp is multiplied by the ring gear what ever it is..
so if the car 450crank hp and you end up with less hp425whp. the 3.25 time hp of the crank is gitting lost into the drive train??? that is you 200 + hp..
you put wheel size ring gear in to a dyno
sorry
This post was last modified: 08-07-2010, 02:47 PM by toomuchstuff.
toomuchstuff
08-07-2010, 02:24 PM #20(08-07-2010, 02:06 PM)MJF Like it says in pic, there is 425,99whp and about 446hp at crank
your correct!
my bad
here's the deal the crank hp is multiplied by the ring gear what ever it is..
so if the car 450crank hp and you end up with less hp425whp. the 3.25 time hp of the crank is gitting lost into the drive train??? that is you 200 + hp..
you put wheel size ring gear in to a dyno
sorry
08-07-2010, 02:50 PM
#22
(08-07-2010, 02:40 PM)MJF I dont´n know how it is calculated, but dyno program will do it. That dyno is with manual transmission.
I corrected my self... I was thinking about how a 1:5.1 ratio will give me the right torque at 450 chp and I thought about the ring gear multiplied crank hp like a reduction gear of a boat to turn a wheel like a prop and bingo...
toomuchstuff
08-07-2010, 02:50 PM #22(08-07-2010, 02:40 PM)MJF I dont´n know how it is calculated, but dyno program will do it. That dyno is with manual transmission.
I corrected my self... I was thinking about how a 1:5.1 ratio will give me the right torque at 450 chp and I thought about the ring gear multiplied crank hp like a reduction gear of a boat to turn a wheel like a prop and bingo...
08-19-2010, 12:26 AM
#23
Any how nice to know rod's can be made state side for MB engines... I am sure they can also custom cut a cam but the pump may be running the engine rich with 750 injectors making it point less...
seems like a built om603 bottom end with a deleted vacuum pump and a fresh head with brass valve guides and stainless valves and a custom turbo and drive adapter plate may be more along the line of what is needed. to go boating. over the cheap set up idea.. It will still price out 20k or so less then a yanmar 330hp and at 550hp it'd be a crazy set up...
I think valves are $12 each so the 2 valve head will be cheaper to build..
is a MB head, built like a gas ohc engine? are there cam flowers over the valve springs that the cam pushes down, or is there a rocker and push rod still?
don't know what I payed for titanium retainers and springs but seems as if factory retainers and springs were ok with all the rpm? I thought a vretainer go b4 a rod on a factory set up....
toomuchstuff
08-19-2010, 12:26 AM #23I got a price for Crower for custom H-beam rods, around $200 each.. They need a factory rod to go by but its not that bad price wise.. I think they cut me a heavy discount when I bought all my wrx part, but didn't bother sending a tax ID to see at this point...
Any how nice to know rod's can be made state side for MB engines... I am sure they can also custom cut a cam but the pump may be running the engine rich with 750 injectors making it point less...
seems like a built om603 bottom end with a deleted vacuum pump and a fresh head with brass valve guides and stainless valves and a custom turbo and drive adapter plate may be more along the line of what is needed. to go boating. over the cheap set up idea.. It will still price out 20k or so less then a yanmar 330hp and at 550hp it'd be a crazy set up...
I think valves are $12 each so the 2 valve head will be cheaper to build..
is a MB head, built like a gas ohc engine? are there cam flowers over the valve springs that the cam pushes down, or is there a rocker and push rod still?
don't know what I payed for titanium retainers and springs but seems as if factory retainers and springs were ok with all the rpm? I thought a vretainer go b4 a rod on a factory set up....
08-19-2010, 10:12 AM
#24
George3soccer
08-19-2010, 10:12 AM #24please keep me updated on those rods, i would be very interested aswell, in the rods.
08-19-2010, 04:49 PM
#25
(08-07-2010, 12:34 PM)ForcedInductionHuoh and again huoh. Is that original N/A wider rpm more power than that? You talk always stoplight race and guater mile race. Do you think at that N/A car win, because it has more torgue at low rpm?(08-07-2010, 12:53 AM)toomuchstuff I have seen charts from little un built gas engines with turbos like the holset but the lag was nuts like nothing till 2800If you look at the dyno chart again, thats the case there as well as the engine makes less power than the non-turbo engine until the holset kicks in.
Like i say before, here we have gears on our MB
so the engine is always in the "playground"
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(08-07-2010, 12:34 PM)ForcedInductionHuoh and again huoh. Is that original N/A wider rpm more power than that? You talk always stoplight race and guater mile race. Do you think at that N/A car win, because it has more torgue at low rpm?(08-07-2010, 12:53 AM)toomuchstuff I have seen charts from little un built gas engines with turbos like the holset but the lag was nuts like nothing till 2800If you look at the dyno chart again, thats the case there as well as the engine makes less power than the non-turbo engine until the holset kicks in.
Like i say before, here we have gears on our MB
so the engine is always in the "playground"
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
08-19-2010, 07:20 PM
#26
(08-19-2010, 04:49 PM)jeemu Do you think at that N/A car win, because it has more torgue at low rpm?That all depends on how long of a race it is
. I think more to the point is that everyone has their own preferences. FI and I are like minds. Big power all the way across. If your not making power until 3200 and your top end is say 6400 (what is your top end) then your only making good power for half of the usable band. In order to compensate you have to gear all your driving in the top end of the band. This means that you are either at high revs through a turn (greater chance of losing traction) or you are off throttle which means you have just lost all your boost and either have to down gear or wait for spool.Races are won in the corners not the straight aways. That said, I would love to have the kind of power you do, but I would totally use a VNT to even out the power band. You are wasting a lot of power by not having one.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
(08-19-2010, 04:49 PM)jeemu Do you think at that N/A car win, because it has more torgue at low rpm?That all depends on how long of a race it is
. I think more to the point is that everyone has their own preferences. FI and I are like minds. Big power all the way across. If your not making power until 3200 and your top end is say 6400 (what is your top end) then your only making good power for half of the usable band. In order to compensate you have to gear all your driving in the top end of the band. This means that you are either at high revs through a turn (greater chance of losing traction) or you are off throttle which means you have just lost all your boost and either have to down gear or wait for spool.Races are won in the corners not the straight aways. That said, I would love to have the kind of power you do, but I would totally use a VNT to even out the power band. You are wasting a lot of power by not having one.
1987 300D Sturmmachine
1991 300D Nearly Perfect
1985 300D Weekend/Camping/Dog car
1974 L508D Motoroam Monarch "NightMare"
OBK #42
08-19-2010, 08:37 PM
#27
(08-19-2010, 04:49 PM)jeemu(08-07-2010, 12:34 PM)ForcedInductionHuoh and again huoh. Is that original N/A wider rpm more power than that? You talk always stoplight race and guater mile race. Do you think at that N/A car win, because it has more torgue at low rpm?(08-07-2010, 12:53 AM)toomuchstuff I have seen charts from little un built gas engines with turbos like the holset but the lag was nuts like nothing till 2800If you look at the dyno chart again, thats the case there as well as the engine makes less power than the non-turbo engine until the holset kicks in.
Like i say before, here we have gears on our MB
I think that chart looks real, real good... I do not see a lot of lag at all. the same turbo engine is 80 or 90 whp stock. the chart makes that at 2000rpm not 3600rpm as a factory engine.. and the power climes 5hp per 100 rpm till 2200 then 10 to 15 hp per 100 rpm to 2700 where you get some good jumps of 30hp or so till 3400 and back to 10hp from 100rpm there is no big jump of hp thro the range over 30hp per 100rpm bad spool makes a jump of %20 to %50 at hi rpm its just a big turbo and takes time to make power but its spooling good.... A twin set up like a small factory size or smaller BB turbo and holst 35 be neat.. bu may not be worth the trouble...
import turbo drag cars lag watch them at the track they roll off the line and bolt after the 10 yards down the track there is just that give and take to get what you want...
toomuchstuff
08-19-2010, 08:37 PM #27(08-19-2010, 04:49 PM)jeemu(08-07-2010, 12:34 PM)ForcedInductionHuoh and again huoh. Is that original N/A wider rpm more power than that? You talk always stoplight race and guater mile race. Do you think at that N/A car win, because it has more torgue at low rpm?(08-07-2010, 12:53 AM)toomuchstuff I have seen charts from little un built gas engines with turbos like the holset but the lag was nuts like nothing till 2800If you look at the dyno chart again, thats the case there as well as the engine makes less power than the non-turbo engine until the holset kicks in.
Like i say before, here we have gears on our MB
I think that chart looks real, real good... I do not see a lot of lag at all. the same turbo engine is 80 or 90 whp stock. the chart makes that at 2000rpm not 3600rpm as a factory engine.. and the power climes 5hp per 100 rpm till 2200 then 10 to 15 hp per 100 rpm to 2700 where you get some good jumps of 30hp or so till 3400 and back to 10hp from 100rpm there is no big jump of hp thro the range over 30hp per 100rpm bad spool makes a jump of %20 to %50 at hi rpm its just a big turbo and takes time to make power but its spooling good.... A twin set up like a small factory size or smaller BB turbo and holst 35 be neat.. bu may not be worth the trouble...
import turbo drag cars lag watch them at the track they roll off the line and bolt after the 10 yards down the track there is just that give and take to get what you want...
08-20-2010, 02:37 AM
#28
(08-19-2010, 07:20 PM)winmutt I would totally use a VNT to even out the power band. You are wasting a lot of power by not having one.Dont found VNT/VGT whas is big enough. One Holset i see 65mm kompressor, but it cost 1500eur
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(08-19-2010, 07:20 PM)winmutt I would totally use a VNT to even out the power band. You are wasting a lot of power by not having one.Dont found VNT/VGT whas is big enough. One Holset i see 65mm kompressor, but it cost 1500eur
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
08-20-2010, 07:12 AM
#29
(08-20-2010, 02:37 AM)jeemu Dont found VNT/VGT whas is big enough.There are many Holset VGTs. HE341Ve, HE351Ve, HE431V, HE451Ve, HE551V, HE551Ve, HE561Ve. They fit engines all the way from 250hp 5.9L to 600hp 14.5L engines and many in between.
That HE561Ve can flow over 2000cfm at 45psi. If that isn't big enough....
Quote:One Holset i see 65mm kompressor, but it cost 1500eurYou're only looking at new prices. There are far more options than buying new parts.
Used is an especially good option for VGT turbos because Holset doesn't allow them to be opened. The only option shops have is to buy a new turbo, even though all it usually needs is to be cleaned of carbon.
ForcedInduction
08-20-2010, 07:12 AM
#29
(08-20-2010, 02:37 AM)jeemu Dont found VNT/VGT whas is big enough.There are many Holset VGTs. HE341Ve, HE351Ve, HE431V, HE451Ve, HE551V, HE551Ve, HE561Ve. They fit engines all the way from 250hp 5.9L to 600hp 14.5L engines and many in between.
That HE561Ve can flow over 2000cfm at 45psi. If that isn't big enough....
Quote:One Holset i see 65mm kompressor, but it cost 1500eurYou're only looking at new prices. There are far more options than buying new parts.
Used is an especially good option for VGT turbos because Holset doesn't allow them to be opened. The only option shops have is to buy a new turbo, even though all it usually needs is to be cleaned of carbon.
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