GTB2260VK on OM606.962
GTB2260VK on OM606.962
Hy guys, I have been reading this site now since a few days, as i am on to purchase a W210 300TD E-Class to prepare it for a "little" more power. (well, at least in the first stage*g*)
Actually I work mostly on VAG TDI/PD engines with 1.9/2.0L displacement.
My current car is a Seat Ibiza 6L with 1.9L unit injector (PD) engine (130hp) which is equipped with a GTB2260VK turbo from Audi´s 3.0L V6 TDI engine (240hp) and some other modifications which gives a power output from 255bhp/480Nm currently. (0-100 ~ 6sec. 0-200 ~ 20sec 1/4mile = 13.8sec with ~165km/H trap speed, therefore I run 2.4bar max. boost pressure, falling to about 2.25bar at 4250rpm)
These GTB2260VK come with an electronic actuator which i convert to a conventional vacuum actuator to use it in engines which dont come clear with the electronic device.
On the original engines, these turbos take about 300bhp/600Nm without any issues, just by modifying the mapping, so I am on to use this turbo on my MB also, but have a few questions:
Can the MB engine/ECU be converted to use a vacuum controlled actuator for the VNT mechanism? (The OEM turbo is a WG kkk k14 AFAIK) And can the ECU (i guess its a MSA15?) be adapted to control it?
As the original engine is also a 3.0L Diesel, I guess the GTB2260VK should be capable to reach the 300bhp mark in the MB also, isnt it?
I have read about the "Myna" Pump which I guess I will need (??), but what about the injector nozzle tips? do they stay stock?
Also, if I have the possibilitys to reprogramm the ECU in any way I want, can I keep the electronic pump or do I have to swap to the mechanical pump in any case?
Some technical data to the GTB2260VK:
Turbine
Inducer is 50mm
Exducer is 45mm
Compressor
Inducer is (uhm, i just forgot...shame on me, something like in the 45mm ballpark)
Exducer is 60mm
Response of those "Generation3" VNT Turbos is really amazing, on my 1.9L engine I managed 1.6bar @ 2000rpm, on the original 3.0L Diesel it makes enough boost to create 450Nm @ 1400rpm, so from this side (unless it is limited in max. Power) i think it would be a good choice for a strong daily driver...
Any help, hints, links and other input is highly welcome and appreciated.
So far, kind regards from Austria,
Alex
(08-08-2010, 06:07 AM)majesty78 On the original engines, these turbos take about 300bhp/600Nm without any issuesThats on a much smaller engine. The GT22 doesn't flow enough for that on a 606, especially with the VK's restrictive turbine.
Quote:Can the MB engine/ECU be converted to use a vacuum controlled actuator for the VNT mechanism?It already is. The wastegate on the stock KKK is vacuum controlled, you'd only need to change the map and parameters. The issue with that is the ECU is not flashable, the chip has to be removed and programmed. Thats why companies like SpeedTuningUsa require you to send the computer to them to change it.
Quote:As the original engine is also a 3.0L Diesel, I guess the GTB2260VK should be capable to reach the 300bhp mark in the MB also, isnt it?No. The original engines its used on are only in the low 200's horsepower that don't revv has high as IDI engines. You'd max out its airflow around 225-250hp.
Quote:I have read about the "Myna" Pump which I guess I will need (??), but what about the injector nozzle tips? do they stay stock?Injectors are not a limit to IDI engines. Injectors are frequently changed on DI engines because the injector tip orifices eventually become a restriction to flow. IDI nozzles don't have any such orifices after the nozzle.
Quote:Also, if I have the possibilitys to reprogramm the ECU in any way I want, can I keep the electronic pump or do I have to swap to the mechanical pump in any case?If you want the computer to control the turbo, you pretty much need the electronic pump.
Quote:Any help, hints, links and other input is highly welcome and appreciated.You should look for a GT3063KLV from a Hino. Its air and exhaust flow capacity will be much better suited to the 606.
(08-08-2010, 06:07 AM)majesty78 On the original engines, these turbos take about 300bhp/600Nm without any issuesThats on a much smaller engine. The GT22 doesn't flow enough for that on a 606, especially with the VK's restrictive turbine.
Quote:Can the MB engine/ECU be converted to use a vacuum controlled actuator for the VNT mechanism?It already is. The wastegate on the stock KKK is vacuum controlled, you'd only need to change the map and parameters. The issue with that is the ECU is not flashable, the chip has to be removed and programmed. Thats why companies like SpeedTuningUsa require you to send the computer to them to change it.
Quote:As the original engine is also a 3.0L Diesel, I guess the GTB2260VK should be capable to reach the 300bhp mark in the MB also, isnt it?No. The original engines its used on are only in the low 200's horsepower that don't revv has high as IDI engines. You'd max out its airflow around 225-250hp.
Quote:I have read about the "Myna" Pump which I guess I will need (??), but what about the injector nozzle tips? do they stay stock?Injectors are not a limit to IDI engines. Injectors are frequently changed on DI engines because the injector tip orifices eventually become a restriction to flow. IDI nozzles don't have any such orifices after the nozzle.
Quote:Also, if I have the possibilitys to reprogramm the ECU in any way I want, can I keep the electronic pump or do I have to swap to the mechanical pump in any case?If you want the computer to control the turbo, you pretty much need the electronic pump.
Quote:Any help, hints, links and other input is highly welcome and appreciated.You should look for a GT3063KLV from a Hino. Its air and exhaust flow capacity will be much better suited to the 606.
Thanks for your reply, but I dont understand what you mean by saying "Thats a far smaller engine"
The original car where this turbo is used is a 3.0L V6 TDi with 240bhp in stock conditions.
The 300TD is also an 3.0L displacement engine....
Curious about what you are meant to say*g*
I have a external programmer for my own use, so unsoldering the eprom and writing it is no problem.
How far does the stock pump reach in terms of max. hp?
Regards, Alex
(08-08-2010, 06:28 AM)majesty78 Thanks for your reply, but I dont understand what you mean by saying "Thats a far smaller engine"The VW engine in your seat.
Quote:The 300TD is also an 3.0L displacement engine.Except it can revv much higher.
Quote:How far does the stock pump reach in terms of max. hp?Right around 210hp. However the injection duration is much too long with maxed out plungers and it will produce high EGTs.
(08-08-2010, 06:28 AM)majesty78 Thanks for your reply, but I dont understand what you mean by saying "Thats a far smaller engine"The VW engine in your seat.
Quote:The 300TD is also an 3.0L displacement engine.Except it can revv much higher.
Quote:How far does the stock pump reach in terms of max. hp?Right around 210hp. However the injection duration is much too long with maxed out plungers and it will produce high EGTs.
Oh ok, I see what you mean know*g*
With the 300hp statement I was reffering to the 3.0L V6 engine where this GTB2260VK come from.
Those are made up to 290-300hp only with software and these cars are also equipped with a DPF which gives more backpressure.
I understand what you are saying about duration, this is the same "problem" in PD engines also, here is the limit set to about 27° SOI and about 33° duration so that injection ends at 6° max.
Although I have to say that I have absolutely NONE experience with IDI engines, so I dont really know what duration/SOI we are talking about in this case... :-(
Regards, Alex
I see, thank you for explaining these things to me.
So from what i read, the gt3063v should be the better match to my power goals, the Holset HX40 would be good for about 400+hp but be kind of laggy if no smoke is wanted....hm...
GT3576KLV seems to be a quite complicated install though as it has hydraulic vnt actuator...
So it seems that some kind of compound system would be the only solution for strong but smokefree low end in combination with good max. power levels....
I guess i will give myself a little more time for R&D until I figure out the final setup....
I do agree with you, since I had a hx40w in my hands today. (luckywise I have direct acces to a very big stock of most common european turbochargers....)
This thing is really big for an 3L engine...
I think turbomatching will be the most important part on my build, and unless I actualy wanted to start with a less powerful setup, I dont feel like wanting to do all the work twice when going from one step to the next.
Benefit from a compound setup would be that I dont have to use vnt turbos but be fine with two WG turbos.
Downside indeed is, that like with IDI engines, I dont have any experience with compound setups and finding/ calcuating the correct turbos.
All I know is actually the result I want to reach, which is smokefree good power with good response from low end to top end...
Is there any practical experience of using compound setups on these engines in this forum?
Regards, Alex
Hi Alex,
there is a compound BorgWarner on ebay.de from time to time.
"You don't want to mess around with VTG control?" then first check the orchestra of WG and flaps and stuff on the compound...
As you have a good source for turbos try to get a GT25. This should give you a very good compromise of availability, performance and complexity of the mods.
Tom
Well, mapping a single vnt turbo is not the problem, what I meant by saying "i dont wanna mess around with vtg control" was in that case if I would combine a vnt with a wg turbo, or using something like the GT3576KLV with hydraulic VNT actuator....
Actually I dont want a sequential setup like the kkk R2S, which switches between the 2 turbos, but more a compound setup, havin 2 turbos working together, a smaller one (HP) feeding into the bigger (LP) on exhaust side and the other way around on the compressor side.
Manifold of the smaller turbo which comes first in the line would need a wastegate bypass before turbine into the exhaust intake from the second stage turbo to avoid high EMPs and overspooling it.
Guess I have to do some compound turbo sizing maths to find the correct setup....
If you send me the part number, i can take a look if it is on stock.
Programming is not my part of the job, I have friends doing this for me. I am more the mechnican than into electronics and programming. (i have enough programming to at work, as i am an cnc- technican from profession )
And besides i use these skills sometimes to fab up parts or custom turbos....
Regards, Alex
Two more ideas in questions:
Combining the gtb2260vk with the holset hx40 in a staged system,
or
make a true twin turbo setup with 2 gtb1756vk.
The smaller frame gtb1756vk has a 40mm exducer on the hotside, calculated x2 this would give an aquivalent of a single 57mm exducer, which is about 27% bigger than the gtb2260vk as a single turbo, which from what I have read here will be limited to about 250hp. Add a quarter and we come into the 300hp ballpark...just calculated by rough numbers certainly.
I have seen those gtb17 turbos on 3cyl. 1.4L Unit Injector Engines spool up very fast, even better than the stock gt1544s which it is equipped with originally.
These gtb17 size is used on 2.7L V6 engines from Audi, stock 190bhp, with remap about 220bhp, so even with the different VE of the Mercedes engine i guess it should be able to handle at least 150hp each on the OM606...
In low rpm range it must be taken care of compressor surge though, like it is common to appear when using a "to big" turbo for the given engine displacement....(1.5l each, in this case )
Any ideas and thougts are welcome and highly appreciated.
Regards, Alex
(08-10-2010, 04:06 PM)majesty78 make a true twin turbo setup with 2 gtb1756vk.Parallel twins on an inline engine has no benefits over a single.
(08-10-2010, 04:06 PM)majesty78 make a true twin turbo setup with 2 gtb1756vk.Parallel twins on an inline engine has no benefits over a single.
Compounds are very trial and error to find the right match. I can't really say for sure it would be good or bad but the two's flow rates are very far apart. You'd definitely need a wastegate to bypass the GT22's relatively small turbine.
They're common in Dodges because hundreds of people have done it and figured out what works well for what applications. The only MB I've seen with true compounds was jeemu's, but his HP turbo was already very large for the engine and his LP turbo was much too close in size. All he got out of the system was high exhaust pressure. Rather than trying to make a better combo, he just gave up.
(08-10-2010, 05:33 PM)ForcedInduction(08-10-2010, 04:06 PM)majesty78 make a true twin turbo setup with 2 gtb1756vk.Parallel twins on an inline engine has no benefits over a single.
(08-10-2010, 05:33 PM)ForcedInduction(08-10-2010, 04:06 PM)majesty78 make a true twin turbo setup with 2 gtb1756vk.Parallel twins on an inline engine has no benefits over a single.
I should just get a OM613, remap it to 235hp/550Nm and be happy*g*
The only bad thing about this is, that I know its going to get boring quite quickly...
I am not saying that I have a real race car now with my Ibiza, but 255hp/480Nm on a 1100kg car are maybe a tiny bit faster than on a car which weighs 1700 or 1800kg....
Twins with gtb22 will again be laggy I guess, and as I am not absolutely forced to have 400hp in the Benz, I thought there must be an solution for having over 300hp without having great issues with smoke or lag...( Of course I wouldnt mind if there is a solution for this in the 350+hp ballpark...)
I just didnt find this solution by now*g*....
(08-11-2010, 01:14 PM)muuris It does make sense in a inline six as there are no good single VNTs available.
(08-11-2010, 01:14 PM)muuris It does make sense in a inline six as there are no good single VNTs available.
(08-11-2010, 02:27 PM)majesty78 Twins with gtb22 will again be laggy I guess...
(08-11-2010, 07:14 PM)ForcedInduction There are many available, you just need to search for them a little harder than the small frame turbos (GT25 and under).
(08-11-2010, 02:27 PM)majesty78 Twins with gtb22 will again be laggy I guess...
(08-11-2010, 07:14 PM)ForcedInduction There are many available, you just need to search for them a little harder than the small frame turbos (GT25 and under).
The HE351Ve is an HX40, I know people have made more than 400hp with them.
(08-12-2010, 07:13 PM)ForcedInduction The HE351Ve is an HX40, I know people have made more than 400hp with them.
(08-12-2010, 07:13 PM)ForcedInduction The HE351Ve is an HX40, I know people have made more than 400hp with them.
(08-12-2010, 11:33 PM)muuris He351Ve really needs one, or EMP will go sky high on full load & high rpm.Why would it need one with a 25cm turbine housing? With the vanes open its throat is no smaller than a normal HX40w.
(08-12-2010, 11:33 PM)muuris He351Ve really needs one, or EMP will go sky high on full load & high rpm.Why would it need one with a 25cm turbine housing? With the vanes open its throat is no smaller than a normal HX40w.
(08-13-2010, 06:36 AM)ForcedInduction(08-12-2010, 11:33 PM)muuris He351Ve really needs one, or EMP will go sky high on full load & high rpm.Why would it need one with a 25cm turbine housing? With the vanes open its throat is no smaller than a normal HX40w.
(08-13-2010, 06:36 AM)ForcedInduction(08-12-2010, 11:33 PM)muuris He351Ve really needs one, or EMP will go sky high on full load & high rpm.Why would it need one with a 25cm turbine housing? With the vanes open its throat is no smaller than a normal HX40w.
Good news, i have bought a car yesterday.
Its a E 320 CDI, mk '00.
I pick it up on friday and will post up some pictures next werk in an new "my build" thread.
The car needs a little work on the brakes and suspension parts like trailing arms and so on, so I will need a little time to get these things sorted out.
Regards, Alex
Congratiulations Alex on the new car. I hope it works out well for you. I'm very curious to see how your power upgrade's will work out as I have similar goals for mine ( +/- 300 hp, fast spool up for everyday driving ) I'm currently driving a W124 om603a and also wondering what turbo would be best to achieve the no smoke, no lag, fast boost 300 hp.
For the pump it's clear I go to Tomnik.
Good Luck