Repowering an s10, engine model advice.
Repowering an s10, engine model advice.
08-11-2010, 01:19 PM
#1
I've been searching a reading for the last couple weeks and lots of google results lead me back here, plus a guy on my chevy forums referred me here.
I was originally thinking OM617 turbo for this project but after finding donor cars for sale the 603 seems to be available at nearly the same price and seem to be easier to make power with. Reading through the identification article on the site I noticed that the 603s are said to have internal issues from the factory and that benz unofficially acknowledged this and replaced many motors past warranty.
Some of my concerns and where I could use the boards knowledge would be what motors I should be staying away from. Also what years and cars they came out of would also help.
My other main question is regarding when the mechanical lift pumps/injection was traded off for computer seeing as how I dont want to deal with ECU and sensors.
I guess a follow up to that would be to ask if newer electronically injected models are able to retrofit a mechanical IP.
Regardless of motor my plans would be an Air to air intercooler, 3in exhaust, and IP tweaking.
This post was last modified: 08-11-2010, 01:23 PM by stomis.
Hows it going guys. This fall I'm going to be starting a 4x4 project based on an early 90s 2 door s10 blazer. The truck will be an expedition/trail rig and driven daily. I've opted to repower it using a diesel more specifically a 5 or 6 cylinder MB turbo diesel.
I've been searching a reading for the last couple weeks and lots of google results lead me back here, plus a guy on my chevy forums referred me here.
I was originally thinking OM617 turbo for this project but after finding donor cars for sale the 603 seems to be available at nearly the same price and seem to be easier to make power with. Reading through the identification article on the site I noticed that the 603s are said to have internal issues from the factory and that benz unofficially acknowledged this and replaced many motors past warranty.
Some of my concerns and where I could use the boards knowledge would be what motors I should be staying away from. Also what years and cars they came out of would also help.
My other main question is regarding when the mechanical lift pumps/injection was traded off for computer seeing as how I dont want to deal with ECU and sensors.
I guess a follow up to that would be to ask if newer electronically injected models are able to retrofit a mechanical IP.
Regardless of motor my plans would be an Air to air intercooler, 3in exhaust, and IP tweaking.
08-11-2010, 02:24 PM
#2
The 3.0L or 300TD 603 were OK, but some had iffy cyl.heads...
![[Image: 300TDnoplate.jpg]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z128/alastairhcii/300TDnoplate.jpg)
Alastair E
08-11-2010, 02:24 PM #2The 350, 3.5 litre 603 turbodiesels were the ones with dodgy rods apparently.
The 3.0L or 300TD 603 were OK, but some had iffy cyl.heads...
08-11-2010, 03:04 PM
#3
Has anyone ever diagnosed what the true problem with the 603 rods are? Is the cylinder overboard causing slap? Loose wrist pins?
I'm no mechanical novice here, I'm new to diesels but not motors. You guys can talk tech lol I wont fall far behind.
O and as an aside my reason for considering a 603 rather than a 617 is only because my power goal would be like 180-200hp and around 220-250 ft/lbs of torque (net/crank numbers). If that can be achieved fairly easy with the 617 then I'll use the 617 seeing as how it will offer the advantage of more engine space and mechanical injection stock.
Well theres no way that I'm going to go putting an unknown motor in my truck. It will be torn down, turbo rebuilt, re-ringed, new bearings, honed, and new gaskets and seals at the least.
Has anyone ever diagnosed what the true problem with the 603 rods are? Is the cylinder overboard causing slap? Loose wrist pins?
I'm no mechanical novice here, I'm new to diesels but not motors. You guys can talk tech lol I wont fall far behind.
O and as an aside my reason for considering a 603 rather than a 617 is only because my power goal would be like 180-200hp and around 220-250 ft/lbs of torque (net/crank numbers). If that can be achieved fairly easy with the 617 then I'll use the 617 seeing as how it will offer the advantage of more engine space and mechanical injection stock.
08-11-2010, 04:45 PM
#4
I don't know how much rebuild bits for the 603 would be in the US, but over here it's damn expensive (probably because nobody bothers) to rebuild any engine, let alone a merc diesel. I only mention, as have you considered going for something that can be cheaply rebuilt in the US like a cummins 4bt or even a 6bt if you can afford the weight?
08-11-2010, 05:27 PM
#5
(08-11-2010, 04:45 PM)HughF_UK I don't know how much rebuild bits for the 603 would be in the US, but over here it's damn expensive (probably because nobody bothers) to rebuild any engine, let alone a merc diesel. I only mention, as have you considered going for something that can be cheaply rebuilt in the US like a cummins 4bt or even a 6bt if you can afford the weight?
Yeah I know all the options. I skipped the 4bt thoughts because it requires high gearing, a very expensive OD trans, and is a damn expensive starting platform coming in at $2500-3000 for a running motor.
I've roughly priced a rebuild. $160 in bearings, $150 in rings, $120 for a gasket kit, still need a price on an oil pump and valve seals. I work at a shop and we have a very good machinist. The assembled shortblock should be around $500 labor, head will probably be $300 to cut the valves and install new seals.
Honestly the damn 4bt is a very cool motor but just too much money and honestly its got too much grunt for my purpose.
(08-11-2010, 04:45 PM)HughF_UK I don't know how much rebuild bits for the 603 would be in the US, but over here it's damn expensive (probably because nobody bothers) to rebuild any engine, let alone a merc diesel. I only mention, as have you considered going for something that can be cheaply rebuilt in the US like a cummins 4bt or even a 6bt if you can afford the weight?
Yeah I know all the options. I skipped the 4bt thoughts because it requires high gearing, a very expensive OD trans, and is a damn expensive starting platform coming in at $2500-3000 for a running motor.
I've roughly priced a rebuild. $160 in bearings, $150 in rings, $120 for a gasket kit, still need a price on an oil pump and valve seals. I work at a shop and we have a very good machinist. The assembled shortblock should be around $500 labor, head will probably be $300 to cut the valves and install new seals.
Honestly the damn 4bt is a very cool motor but just too much money and honestly its got too much grunt for my purpose.
08-11-2010, 07:30 PM
#6
(08-11-2010, 05:27 PM)stomis I've roughly priced a rebuild. $160 in bearings, $150 in rings, $120 for a gasket kit, still need a price on an oil pump and valve seals.
You're missing $1000 for the pistons and $350 for the valves. A proper self-rebuild will work out to around $4000, $6-7k if you buy a finished longblock from a reputable source.
ForcedInduction
08-11-2010, 07:30 PM
#6
(08-11-2010, 05:27 PM)stomis I've roughly priced a rebuild. $160 in bearings, $150 in rings, $120 for a gasket kit, still need a price on an oil pump and valve seals.
You're missing $1000 for the pistons and $350 for the valves. A proper self-rebuild will work out to around $4000, $6-7k if you buy a finished longblock from a reputable source.
08-11-2010, 07:42 PM
#7
(08-11-2010, 07:30 PM)ForcedInduction(08-11-2010, 05:27 PM)stomis I've roughly priced a rebuild. $160 in bearings, $150 in rings, $120 for a gasket kit, still need a price on an oil pump and valve seals.
You're missing $1000 for the pistons and $350 for the valves. A proper self-rebuild will work out to around $4000, $6-7k if you buy a finished longblock from a reputable source.
Is there a reason you cant reuse the stock pistons if the cylinders are within spec? Some sort of diesel or MB specific thing? I mean Im well aware that if a cylinder has a gouge or rust then yeah you need to over bore and get larger pistons.
(08-11-2010, 07:30 PM)ForcedInduction(08-11-2010, 05:27 PM)stomis I've roughly priced a rebuild. $160 in bearings, $150 in rings, $120 for a gasket kit, still need a price on an oil pump and valve seals.
You're missing $1000 for the pistons and $350 for the valves. A proper self-rebuild will work out to around $4000, $6-7k if you buy a finished longblock from a reputable source.
Is there a reason you cant reuse the stock pistons if the cylinders are within spec? Some sort of diesel or MB specific thing? I mean Im well aware that if a cylinder has a gouge or rust then yeah you need to over bore and get larger pistons.
08-11-2010, 10:24 PM
#8
At least the om617 are sleeved! I would suspect the om603 are the same!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
08-11-2010, 10:24 PM #8I think the engine are sleeved to begin with so you would just remove and replace the sleeves if they are out of spec!
At least the om617 are sleeved! I would suspect the om603 are the same!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
08-11-2010, 10:27 PM
#9
(08-11-2010, 10:24 PM)willbhere4u I think the engine are sleeved to begin with so you would just remove and replace the sleeves if they are out of spec!
At least the om617 are sleeved! I would suspect the om603 are the same!
Yeah I just read up on them being sleeved. Which is good if the bores are too far gone. Honestly I know I come from a world of chevys but since when do you need to replace pistons if theirs no damage and theyre in spec?
Plus its not like I'm worried about integrity of a stock piston vs aftermarket or new. The truck isnt gonna be super duper built and its not gonna get beat on for the most part.
(08-11-2010, 10:24 PM)willbhere4u I think the engine are sleeved to begin with so you would just remove and replace the sleeves if they are out of spec!
At least the om617 are sleeved! I would suspect the om603 are the same!
Yeah I just read up on them being sleeved. Which is good if the bores are too far gone. Honestly I know I come from a world of chevys but since when do you need to replace pistons if theirs no damage and theyre in spec?
Plus its not like I'm worried about integrity of a stock piston vs aftermarket or new. The truck isnt gonna be super duper built and its not gonna get beat on for the most part.
08-12-2010, 01:24 AM
#10
If it's a linered block then your quids in as we say... When I was pricing up up my perkins rebuild the pistons were the killer price wise. Turns out I didn't need them in the end as we didn't go to the .5mm oversize and just gave the bores a quick glaze bust.
08-12-2010, 04:51 AM
#11
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
Somewhere I have a picture of an OM617 in a S10 Blazer. It fit well but the oil filter is nigh impossible to change due to it's proximity to the brake booster. My other computer is down now but I'll try to post pics when I fix it after the parts come in.
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
08-12-2010, 05:01 AM
#12
George3soccer
08-12-2010, 05:01 AM #12The power output gain you are looking for can be achived quite easily with a 617 quite easily. Read around in the dyno results thread, with just a turbo upgrade exhaust ugrade larger pump from my friend derv, intercooler, and a few smaller bits, you can achieve that quite easily. With the 603, find one from a 300d, 300td w124, and make sure you keep temps. down and your head will be just fine.
08-12-2010, 07:04 AM
#13
(08-11-2010, 07:42 PM)stomis Is there a reason you cant reuse the stock pistons if the cylinders are within spec?No. But at the age/mileage of any of the IDI engines I'd be surprised if the ring lands are still within spec limits, especially on the 617.
Quote:Some sort of diesel or MB specific thing?A little 8:1 compression g@sser might get away with a ringjob at 200+k miles. Diesels make 300psi+ every compression stroke, upwards of 700psi at full boost. They are built much stronger than a typical g@s engine but at the same time they have to endure much more stress. 1970's/80's metallurgy can only last so long.
ForcedInduction
08-12-2010, 07:04 AM
#13
(08-11-2010, 07:42 PM)stomis Is there a reason you cant reuse the stock pistons if the cylinders are within spec?No. But at the age/mileage of any of the IDI engines I'd be surprised if the ring lands are still within spec limits, especially on the 617.
Quote:Some sort of diesel or MB specific thing?A little 8:1 compression g@sser might get away with a ringjob at 200+k miles. Diesels make 300psi+ every compression stroke, upwards of 700psi at full boost. They are built much stronger than a typical g@s engine but at the same time they have to endure much more stress. 1970's/80's metallurgy can only last so long.
08-12-2010, 09:14 AM
#14
(08-12-2010, 07:04 AM)ForcedInduction(08-11-2010, 07:42 PM)stomis Is there a reason you cant reuse the stock pistons if the cylinders are within spec?No. But at the age/mileage of any of the IDI engines I'd be surprised if the ring lands are still within spec limits, especially on the 617.
Quote:Some sort of diesel or MB specific thing?A little 8:1 compression g@sser might get away with a ringjob at 200+k miles. Diesels make 300psi+ every compression stroke, upwards of 700psi at full boost. They are built much stronger than a typical g@s engine but at the same time they have to endure much more stress. 1970's/80's metallurgy can only last so long.
Got ya. I figured that much just wanted to be sure there wasnt some special condition I was missing specific to these motors.
I'm no half asser. If it needs pistons then I'll choke up the $1000 and get pistons believe me. I'd rather start off with a $300-$500 motor and spend from there than start with a $2500 motor and still have to spend like with a 4bt.
@ E300TSC- I would appreciate the pictures. I think I know what build your referring to. Its a later model red blazer which are a tad bit more cramped than the earlier model I'll be using. I also plan to switch to hydro boost brakes so I'll have no issues with booster clearance.
@ George3soccer - George thank you. I've been waiting for someone to outright say my number goal is obtainable with the 617. I'd rather go with it to gain more engine compartment space. I've been reading through alot of the dyno sheets so I'll keep digging through. Thanks
Thank you all for the input its a huge help. I have a line on a 250k 617 and trans in my area for $400. Guy said he pulled it running great.
(08-12-2010, 07:04 AM)ForcedInduction(08-11-2010, 07:42 PM)stomis Is there a reason you cant reuse the stock pistons if the cylinders are within spec?No. But at the age/mileage of any of the IDI engines I'd be surprised if the ring lands are still within spec limits, especially on the 617.
Quote:Some sort of diesel or MB specific thing?A little 8:1 compression g@sser might get away with a ringjob at 200+k miles. Diesels make 300psi+ every compression stroke, upwards of 700psi at full boost. They are built much stronger than a typical g@s engine but at the same time they have to endure much more stress. 1970's/80's metallurgy can only last so long.
Got ya. I figured that much just wanted to be sure there wasnt some special condition I was missing specific to these motors.
I'm no half asser. If it needs pistons then I'll choke up the $1000 and get pistons believe me. I'd rather start off with a $300-$500 motor and spend from there than start with a $2500 motor and still have to spend like with a 4bt.
@ E300TSC- I would appreciate the pictures. I think I know what build your referring to. Its a later model red blazer which are a tad bit more cramped than the earlier model I'll be using. I also plan to switch to hydro boost brakes so I'll have no issues with booster clearance.
@ George3soccer - George thank you. I've been waiting for someone to outright say my number goal is obtainable with the 617. I'd rather go with it to gain more engine compartment space. I've been reading through alot of the dyno sheets so I'll keep digging through. Thanks
Thank you all for the input its a huge help. I have a line on a 250k 617 and trans in my area for $400. Guy said he pulled it running great.
08-12-2010, 04:21 PM
#15
Take a battery, some wire and a can of diesel and see if it's any good before parting wigth your hard earned.
Says I who bought my 606 untested from a bloke in a barn
Remember they'll run great even when they're fooked... Mine still returned 32+mpg and pulled hard through 90mph even though it was blowing smoke rings out the oil filler and starting on 3 cylinders.
Take a battery, some wire and a can of diesel and see if it's any good before parting wigth your hard earned.
Says I who bought my 606 untested from a bloke in a barn
08-12-2010, 04:36 PM
#16
(08-12-2010, 04:21 PM)HughF_UK Remember they'll run great even when they're fooked... Mine still returned 32+mpg and pulled hard through 90mph even though it was blowing smoke rings out the oil filler and starting on 3 cylinders.
Take a battery, some wire and a can of diesel and see if it's any good before parting wigth your hard earned.
Says I who bought my 606 untested from a bloke in a barn
Alright will do.
(08-12-2010, 04:21 PM)HughF_UK Remember they'll run great even when they're fooked... Mine still returned 32+mpg and pulled hard through 90mph even though it was blowing smoke rings out the oil filler and starting on 3 cylinders.
Take a battery, some wire and a can of diesel and see if it's any good before parting wigth your hard earned.
Says I who bought my 606 untested from a bloke in a barn
Alright will do.
08-13-2010, 05:48 AM
#17
Go with a 617 slightly shorter then a 603,
Also when going to look at the motor like HughF_UK said, bring a battery some cables, a small can of diesel some tubbing for that, and crank away with the motor, it will start like no other motor if fuel is supplies and you get the starter to crank.
Here you go a 617
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m00MBqnxacY
George3soccer
08-13-2010, 05:48 AM #17If thats all your looking froma power level go with a 617 easily obtained no worries on 603 problems, not like there problems are huge problems, but nonetheless.
Go with a 617 slightly shorter then a 603,
Also when going to look at the motor like HughF_UK said, bring a battery some cables, a small can of diesel some tubbing for that, and crank away with the motor, it will start like no other motor if fuel is supplies and you get the starter to crank.
Here you go a 617
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m00MBqnxacY
08-14-2010, 08:47 AM
#18
Here are some shots I took of the Blazer:
![[Image: IMG_3374.jpg]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kartek/Truck%20Stuff/IMG_3374.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_3375.jpg]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kartek/Truck%20Stuff/IMG_3375.jpg)
![[Image: IMG_3373.jpg]](http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y71/kartek/Truck%20Stuff/IMG_3373.jpg)
It looks like it fits very well but these pictures also illustrate how crappy this install can get if a lot of care is not exercised with wiring/plumbing, etc...
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
OK, computer fixed.
Here are some shots I took of the Blazer:
It looks like it fits very well but these pictures also illustrate how crappy this install can get if a lot of care is not exercised with wiring/plumbing, etc...
1998 MB E300 - 194,000 miles. Current/future mods: 7.5mm pump elements, Holset HX40 Turbo feeding Eaton M90 supercharger through custom fabbed intake system. Aeroturbine muffler, scratch-built 4" stainless exhaust. EGR eliminated, ECM recalibrated, modified rack position feedback circuit. Porterfield RS brake pads, Bilstein sport shocks, VDO EGT, oil and boost gauges.
2000 Ford F250 - 150,000 miles. Current/future mods: DP Tuner 3 map chip, scratch-built high flow intake, high output IDM, open circuit fuel system, ball bearing turbo, South Bend full metal clutch, slotted and drilled rotors. Autometer Sport Comp EGT and boost gauges.
ForcedInduction
08-14-2010, 09:33 AM
#19
Not to mention a vehicle like that can't be legally registered.
yankneck696
08-14-2010, 03:50 PM #20It can be registered in Floriduh.... No inspections, whatsoever.
08-14-2010, 03:58 PM
#21
http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/...switch.pdf
Its like speeding, just because there isn't a cop pointing a radar at you and you're not harming anyone doesn't make it okay to drive 75 in a 55. Doesn't stop people though. Morals are flexible.
ForcedInduction
08-14-2010, 03:58 PM
#21
Nope. Just because they don't check doesn't make it legal.
http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/...switch.pdf
Its like speeding, just because there isn't a cop pointing a radar at you and you're not harming anyone doesn't make it okay to drive 75 in a 55. Doesn't stop people though. Morals are flexible.
08-14-2010, 07:09 PM
#22
yankneck696
08-14-2010, 07:09 PM #22Well, there was a version of S-10 that came with a Mitsu diesel. There is no box on the title that asks if you switched the manufacturer's engine brand.
08-15-2010, 07:27 AM
#23
(08-14-2010, 07:09 PM)yankneck696 Well, there was a version of S-10 that came with a Mitsu diesel.2.2L Isuzu. Ford used Mitsubishi.
Quote:There is no box on the title that asks if you switched the manufacturer's engine brand.Its the responsibility of the owner to make sure title information is correct during registration. Its like taxes; you don't have to tell them you won $xxxx at the casino, but good luck getting your bunghole closed again if the G-Man finds out about it!
ForcedInduction
08-15-2010, 07:27 AM
#23
(08-14-2010, 07:09 PM)yankneck696 Well, there was a version of S-10 that came with a Mitsu diesel.2.2L Isuzu. Ford used Mitsubishi.
Quote:There is no box on the title that asks if you switched the manufacturer's engine brand.Its the responsibility of the owner to make sure title information is correct during registration. Its like taxes; you don't have to tell them you won $xxxx at the casino, but good luck getting your bunghole closed again if the G-Man finds out about it!
08-15-2010, 10:26 AM
#24
(08-15-2010, 07:27 AM)ForcedInduction(08-14-2010, 07:09 PM)yankneck696 Well, there was a version of S-10 that came with a Mitsu diesel.2.2L Isuzu. Ford used Mitsubishi.
Quote:There is no box on the title that asks if you switched the manufacturer's engine brand.Its the responsibility of the owner to make sure title information is correct during registration. Its like taxes; you don't have to tell them you won $xxxx at the casino, but good luck getting your bunghole closed again if the G-Man finds out about it!
No dodge used mitsu in the d50.
Theres no emissions for diesels in NJ. You drive in they go, o its a diesel? Heres your sticker.
Is it that sacrilegious for you guys?
(08-15-2010, 07:27 AM)ForcedInduction(08-14-2010, 07:09 PM)yankneck696 Well, there was a version of S-10 that came with a Mitsu diesel.2.2L Isuzu. Ford used Mitsubishi.
Quote:There is no box on the title that asks if you switched the manufacturer's engine brand.Its the responsibility of the owner to make sure title information is correct during registration. Its like taxes; you don't have to tell them you won $xxxx at the casino, but good luck getting your bunghole closed again if the G-Man finds out about it!
No dodge used mitsu in the d50.
Theres no emissions for diesels in NJ. You drive in they go, o its a diesel? Heres your sticker.
Is it that sacrilegious for you guys?
08-15-2010, 11:22 AM
#25
(08-15-2010, 10:26 AM)stomis No dodge used mitsu in the d50.Thats because the D50 IS a Mitsubishi. Ford also used Mitsubishi diesel engines in their Ranger, along with Perkins.
Quote:Theres no emissions for diesels in NJ.Again, no emissions testing is not a free pass for ignoring federal laws.
ForcedInduction
08-15-2010, 11:22 AM
#25
(08-15-2010, 10:26 AM)stomis No dodge used mitsu in the d50.Thats because the D50 IS a Mitsubishi. Ford also used Mitsubishi diesel engines in their Ranger, along with Perkins.
Quote:Theres no emissions for diesels in NJ.Again, no emissions testing is not a free pass for ignoring federal laws.
08-15-2010, 02:06 PM
#26
yankneck696
08-15-2010, 02:06 PM #26I'm not trying to sound like a butthead or anything. When you look at it all from a legal standpoint, everrything we do to alter an engine for more HP, is considered illegal under DOT regulations. In Florida, you CAN register as a homebuilt. I did that with my Samurai. Went through the whole referee inspection & everything. So, YES you can do it LEGALLY in some states. I am now done with this thread.
08-15-2010, 03:07 PM
#27
(08-15-2010, 02:06 PM)yankneck696 is considered illegal under DOT regulations.That is false. DOT has only to do with safety. Modifications and emissions are under EPA law.
Quote:I am now done with this thread.Bye.
This post was last modified: 08-15-2010, 03:08 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
08-15-2010, 03:07 PM
#27
(08-15-2010, 02:06 PM)yankneck696 is considered illegal under DOT regulations.That is false. DOT has only to do with safety. Modifications and emissions are under EPA law.
Quote:I am now done with this thread.Bye.
08-16-2010, 10:07 AM
#28
(08-15-2010, 03:07 PM)ForcedInduction(08-15-2010, 02:06 PM)yankneck696 is considered illegal under DOT regulations.That is false. DOT has only to do with safety. Modifications and emissions are under EPA law.
Quote:I am now done with this thread.Bye.
K and EGR delete on your car is just as illegal as me putting a diesel in an s10. You made your point its not technically legal to put a diesel in an s10 under federal law, we get it. Thats fine and dandy. Probably 75% of modifications done to cars arent legal and honestly unless you live in CA no one really gives a damn as long as you pass emissions.
This thread has honestly gotten beyond pointless, thanks.
O btw and after reading into the laws further the swap is legal is a hazy sense seeing as how the the OM617 is a certified EPA motor produced during the same time period as the S10 platform and the S10 platform was offered with a diesel option.
Quote: For light-duty vehicles, installation of a light-duty eng~ne into a different light-duty vehicle by any
person would be considered tampering unless the resulting vehicle is identical (with regard to all
emission related parts, engine design parameters, and engine calibrations) to a certified configuration of
the same or newer model year as the vehicle chassis,
In english it says "swapping a light duty motor from one platform to another is illegal unless all emissions of the original engine are retained"
Quote:If the vehicle
chassis in question has been certified with gasoline, as well as diesel engines(as is common), such a
conversion could be done legally
S10 platform is certified in bother as and diesel. Is it the same diesel no but it is a certified platform to have a diesel power plant.
Quote:such that it is generally not
possible to put an engine into a chassis of a different manufacturer and have it match up to a certified
3
configuration
And theres the quote I'm sure your gonna come back at me with. Its vague and hazy laws. It doesnt matter what the book says. If they want to decide its illegal they'll do so after someone makes the choice to bust my balls. BUT there is no where in the laws that says the swap is straight up downright illegal.
Heres a link to a 6.2 swap in a Grand Wagoneer that was done fully legal IN CALIFORNIA (lol). Light duty to light duty, different years, different makes passed and made legal 100%. http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=80533
This post was last modified: 08-16-2010, 10:38 AM by stomis.
(08-15-2010, 03:07 PM)ForcedInduction(08-15-2010, 02:06 PM)yankneck696 is considered illegal under DOT regulations.That is false. DOT has only to do with safety. Modifications and emissions are under EPA law.
Quote:I am now done with this thread.Bye.
K and EGR delete on your car is just as illegal as me putting a diesel in an s10. You made your point its not technically legal to put a diesel in an s10 under federal law, we get it. Thats fine and dandy. Probably 75% of modifications done to cars arent legal and honestly unless you live in CA no one really gives a damn as long as you pass emissions.
This thread has honestly gotten beyond pointless, thanks.
O btw and after reading into the laws further the swap is legal is a hazy sense seeing as how the the OM617 is a certified EPA motor produced during the same time period as the S10 platform and the S10 platform was offered with a diesel option.
Quote: For light-duty vehicles, installation of a light-duty eng~ne into a different light-duty vehicle by any
person would be considered tampering unless the resulting vehicle is identical (with regard to all
emission related parts, engine design parameters, and engine calibrations) to a certified configuration of
the same or newer model year as the vehicle chassis,
In english it says "swapping a light duty motor from one platform to another is illegal unless all emissions of the original engine are retained"
Quote:If the vehicle
chassis in question has been certified with gasoline, as well as diesel engines(as is common), such a
conversion could be done legally
S10 platform is certified in bother as and diesel. Is it the same diesel no but it is a certified platform to have a diesel power plant.
Quote:such that it is generally not
possible to put an engine into a chassis of a different manufacturer and have it match up to a certified
3
configuration
And theres the quote I'm sure your gonna come back at me with. Its vague and hazy laws. It doesnt matter what the book says. If they want to decide its illegal they'll do so after someone makes the choice to bust my balls. BUT there is no where in the laws that says the swap is straight up downright illegal.
Heres a link to a 6.2 swap in a Grand Wagoneer that was done fully legal IN CALIFORNIA (lol). Light duty to light duty, different years, different makes passed and made legal 100%. http://www.ifsja.org/forums/vb/showthread.php?t=80533
08-16-2010, 11:50 AM
#29
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
08-16-2010, 11:50 AM #29Every time i get a car titled at my local DMV they ask if it gas diesel or electric? and said all I have to do is tell them and they will switch it on the title!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
08-16-2010, 01:58 PM
#30
(08-16-2010, 11:50 AM)willbhere4u Every time i get a car titled at my local DMV they ask if it gas diesel or electric? and said all I have to do is tell them and they will switch it on the title!
Yeah I really dont foresee any problems. If you can make it work in cali you can make it work anywhere.
03-07-2011, 02:45 PM
#31
I agree on the legality first of all you would have to get the epa mam out of his office he is a government bureaucrat he is only interested in his paycheck and his pension and how to use more paper making useless documents and for them to come to where I live it would mean they would have to leave their cushy office and my state dot all they ant is to know it it is gas or diesel personally I think if you don't like what we are doing then go find a tree to hug
03-07-2011, 03:16 PM
#32
If you have a legally licensed vehicle in your state of residence, how does a "fed" ticket you? Are there federal police driving the interstates with the assignment of finding diesel conversions or folks running home brew bio or WVO? This reoccuring argument completely excapes me. If I don't pay my taxes the IRS shows up eventually. Who catches me for violating these obscure laws?
Per my local Tennessee DMV, they will license a vehicle that was manufactored with a gas engine then converted to a diesel engine if it passes emissions testing. They issue the title to the new owner for the current engine type, not the original mfgd engine.
If you have a legally licensed vehicle in your state of residence, how does a "fed" ticket you? Are there federal police driving the interstates with the assignment of finding diesel conversions or folks running home brew bio or WVO? This reoccuring argument completely excapes me. If I don't pay my taxes the IRS shows up eventually. Who catches me for violating these obscure laws?
03-08-2011, 03:12 AM
#33
I put a 95 BMW m3 engine in a 83 Volvo legally.
I put a 98 T5 Volvo engine in my 83 242...
My 240d I getting a 5.0/ aod....
-Jesse
80 300sd hy35, front mount intercooler, w115 intake, rack limiter removed, Alda removed, full load turned up, boost, ebp, trans, pyro, egr delete, 3.5" exhaust, e-fan, 16x8 rims with, 245/50 tires, lowered, bilstien 5100's, 12" front brakes, 2.65:1 diff.
97 f250 psd 4x4, crawler
70 f250 390
83 Volvo 242, lots of mods
66 Volvo amazon
10 mistsubishi fuso service truck.
Do it! I put a 7.3 diesel in my bronco legally.
I put a 95 BMW m3 engine in a 83 Volvo legally.
I put a 98 T5 Volvo engine in my 83 242...
My 240d I getting a 5.0/ aod....
-Jesse
80 300sd hy35, front mount intercooler, w115 intake, rack limiter removed, Alda removed, full load turned up, boost, ebp, trans, pyro, egr delete, 3.5" exhaust, e-fan, 16x8 rims with, 245/50 tires, lowered, bilstien 5100's, 12" front brakes, 2.65:1 diff.
97 f250 psd 4x4, crawler
70 f250 390
83 Volvo 242, lots of mods
66 Volvo amazon
10 mistsubishi fuso service truck.
03-08-2011, 03:25 AM
#34
(03-07-2011, 03:16 PM)Walkenvol If you have a legally licensed vehicle in your state of residence, how does a "fed" ticket you?www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/policies/civil/caa/mobile/engswitch.pdf
"EPA received many questions regarding the application of this law to a situation where one engine is removed from a vehicle and another engine is installed in its place. EPA's policy regarding "engine switching" is covered under the provisions of Mobile Source Enforcement Memorandum No. lA (Attachment 1). This policy states that EPA will not consider any modification to a "certified configuration" to be a violation of federal law if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected. In many cases, proper emission testing according to the Federal Test Procedure would be necessary to make this determination.
A "certified configuration" is an engine or engine chassis design which has been "certified" (approved) by EPA prior to the production of vehicles with that design. Generally, the manufacturer submits an application for certification of the designs of each engine or vehicle it proposes to manufacture prior to production. The application includes design requirements for all emission related parts, engine calibrations, and other design parameters for each different type of engine (in heavy-duty vehicles), or engine chassis combination (in light-duty vehicles). EPA then "certifies" each acceptable design for use, in vehicles of the upcoming model year.
For light-duty vehicles, installation of a light-duty eng~ne into a different light-duty vehicle by any person would be considered tampering unless the resulting vehicle is identical (with regard to all emission related parts, engine design parameters, and engine calibrations) to a certified configuration of the same or newer model year as the vehicle chassis, or if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected as described in Memo 1A. The appropriate source for technical information regarding the certified configuration of a vehicle of a particular model year is the vehicle manufacturer. "
...
"State or local programs which pass illegally engine switched vehicles may mislead federally regulated parties into believing that engine switching is allowed by federal law."
Quote:Are there federal police driving the interstates with the assignment of finding diesel conversions or folks running home brew bio or WVO?Yes, aka, State Troopers. Police in counties without an active emissions-testing or inspection program are trained to recognize violations. My grandfather was in the CHP for 15 years and was trained for it.
This post was last modified: 03-08-2011, 03:26 AM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
03-08-2011, 03:25 AM
#34
(03-07-2011, 03:16 PM)Walkenvol If you have a legally licensed vehicle in your state of residence, how does a "fed" ticket you?www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/policies/civil/caa/mobile/engswitch.pdf
"EPA received many questions regarding the application of this law to a situation where one engine is removed from a vehicle and another engine is installed in its place. EPA's policy regarding "engine switching" is covered under the provisions of Mobile Source Enforcement Memorandum No. lA (Attachment 1). This policy states that EPA will not consider any modification to a "certified configuration" to be a violation of federal law if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected. In many cases, proper emission testing according to the Federal Test Procedure would be necessary to make this determination.
A "certified configuration" is an engine or engine chassis design which has been "certified" (approved) by EPA prior to the production of vehicles with that design. Generally, the manufacturer submits an application for certification of the designs of each engine or vehicle it proposes to manufacture prior to production. The application includes design requirements for all emission related parts, engine calibrations, and other design parameters for each different type of engine (in heavy-duty vehicles), or engine chassis combination (in light-duty vehicles). EPA then "certifies" each acceptable design for use, in vehicles of the upcoming model year.
For light-duty vehicles, installation of a light-duty eng~ne into a different light-duty vehicle by any person would be considered tampering unless the resulting vehicle is identical (with regard to all emission related parts, engine design parameters, and engine calibrations) to a certified configuration of the same or newer model year as the vehicle chassis, or if there is a reasonable basis for knowing that emissions are not adversely affected as described in Memo 1A. The appropriate source for technical information regarding the certified configuration of a vehicle of a particular model year is the vehicle manufacturer. "
...
"State or local programs which pass illegally engine switched vehicles may mislead federally regulated parties into believing that engine switching is allowed by federal law."
Quote:Are there federal police driving the interstates with the assignment of finding diesel conversions or folks running home brew bio or WVO?Yes, aka, State Troopers. Police in counties without an active emissions-testing or inspection program are trained to recognize violations. My grandfather was in the CHP for 15 years and was trained for it.
03-08-2011, 07:52 AM
#35
(03-08-2011, 03:25 AM)ForcedInductionQuote:Are there federal police driving the interstates with the assignment of finding diesel conversions or folks running home brew bio or WVO?Yes, aka, State Troopers. Police in counties without an active emissions-testing or inspection program are trained to recognize violations. My grandfather was in the CHP for 15 years and was trained for it.
Since my county has an active emissions testing program and all vehicles have to pass an emissions test in order to be licensed, I guess I'm in good shape?
I thought State Troopers worked for the "State", not for the Federal government nor the EPA. While I'm not looking to get flamed, I'd like to know of anyone driving a diesel converted car licensed in their county of residence who has been ticketed by a State Trooper for illegally modifying their automobile or for running home brewed bio or WVO. I don't want to complete my project only to find out I can't drive it outside of my county. If its a 1 in a million chance, then I can live with those odds.
(03-08-2011, 03:25 AM)ForcedInductionQuote:Are there federal police driving the interstates with the assignment of finding diesel conversions or folks running home brew bio or WVO?Yes, aka, State Troopers. Police in counties without an active emissions-testing or inspection program are trained to recognize violations. My grandfather was in the CHP for 15 years and was trained for it.
Since my county has an active emissions testing program and all vehicles have to pass an emissions test in order to be licensed, I guess I'm in good shape?
I thought State Troopers worked for the "State", not for the Federal government nor the EPA. While I'm not looking to get flamed, I'd like to know of anyone driving a diesel converted car licensed in their county of residence who has been ticketed by a State Trooper for illegally modifying their automobile or for running home brewed bio or WVO. I don't want to complete my project only to find out I can't drive it outside of my county. If its a 1 in a million chance, then I can live with those odds.
03-08-2011, 10:10 AM
#36
(03-08-2011, 07:52 AM)Walkenvol Since my county has an active emissions testing program and all vehicles have to pass an emissions test in order to be licensed, I guess I'm in good shape?If you want to be shady, yes.
Quote:I thought State Troopers worked for the "State", not for the Federal governmentSame thing.
ForcedInduction
03-08-2011, 10:10 AM
#36
(03-08-2011, 07:52 AM)Walkenvol Since my county has an active emissions testing program and all vehicles have to pass an emissions test in order to be licensed, I guess I'm in good shape?If you want to be shady, yes.
Quote:I thought State Troopers worked for the "State", not for the Federal governmentSame thing.
03-08-2011, 10:27 AM
#37
(03-08-2011, 10:10 AM)ForcedInductionQuote:I thought State Troopers worked for the "State", not for the Federal governmentSame thing.
No, just a single state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_police#United_States
But they are all 'the man' if that's what you mean.
This post was last modified: 03-08-2011, 10:28 AM by larsalan.
Rusted out beat down 300d turbo 82' -- RIP
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
(03-08-2011, 10:10 AM)ForcedInductionQuote:I thought State Troopers worked for the "State", not for the Federal governmentSame thing.
No, just a single state.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_police#United_States
But they are all 'the man' if that's what you mean.
Rusted out beat down 300d turbo 82' -- RIP
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
Nice body, tons of ridiculous mechanical issues - 300d turbo 82' /motor 85'
03-08-2011, 10:51 AM
#38
They told me to find a platform vehicle that exceeded 20 years to do my swap.
I had the same question, I want to legally register and drive my vehicle when its eventually done. After that, I did some state research. Basically, in my state, you re-register the vehicle as diesel, then bring the information from the engine/donor vehicle, and they perform an emissions test on the vehicle based on the emissions standards set forth for the engine donor.
After that, its all legal on the title and with state and federal record books apparently.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
I just went through a whole bunch of this stuff since im basically doing the same type of thing. What I was told by an EPA representative was that most of these restrictions were for vehicles up to 20 years old, beyond that, you can legally change powerplants and alter the title to reflect the change.
They told me to find a platform vehicle that exceeded 20 years to do my swap.
I had the same question, I want to legally register and drive my vehicle when its eventually done. After that, I did some state research. Basically, in my state, you re-register the vehicle as diesel, then bring the information from the engine/donor vehicle, and they perform an emissions test on the vehicle based on the emissions standards set forth for the engine donor.
After that, its all legal on the title and with state and federal record books apparently.
1974 240D 617 turbo swap, W201 5-speed, in the works project
1983 240D 616 stock, DD
1989 Chevy Astro, 617 turbo swap, T5 5-speed, 4.56 diff, work van
03-08-2011, 05:05 PM
#39
If you are legally registered in your county or state with full disclosure, you can drive anywhere in this wonderful country !!!
Ed
This post was last modified: 03-08-2011, 05:59 PM by yankneck696.
yankneck696
03-08-2011, 05:05 PM #39Hear Hear !!!!
If you are legally registered in your county or state with full disclosure, you can drive anywhere in this wonderful country !!!
Ed
03-09-2011, 09:33 AM
#40
(03-08-2011, 10:10 AM)ForcedInduction [I respect your vast knowledge of MB diesels demonstrated on these forums, but I would respectfully suggest further research if you believe the Federal government is the same thing as the State government.Quote:I thought State Troopers worked for the "State", not for the Federal governmentSame thing.
(03-08-2011, 05:05 PM)yankneck696 Hear Hear !!!!
If you are legally registered in your county or state with full disclosure, you can drive anywhere in this wonderful country !!!
Ed
Not according to Forced, hence the request for those who have been ticketed in a "legally registered vehicle in their county or state".
There are lots of obscure laws on the books that are antiquated or not enforced. Personally if a law is not enforced and I'm unable to understand any moral or logical benefit to the law, then I can sleep fine at night ignoring the law. I have no moral or logical problem with a diesel engine repowering a different vehicle as long as it meets emissions standards. Is anyone out there who has run into trouble from a diesel conversion after it was legally licensed in their home location?
This post was last modified: 03-09-2011, 09:43 AM by Walkenvol.
(03-08-2011, 10:10 AM)ForcedInduction [I respect your vast knowledge of MB diesels demonstrated on these forums, but I would respectfully suggest further research if you believe the Federal government is the same thing as the State government.Quote:I thought State Troopers worked for the "State", not for the Federal governmentSame thing.
(03-08-2011, 05:05 PM)yankneck696 Hear Hear !!!!
If you are legally registered in your county or state with full disclosure, you can drive anywhere in this wonderful country !!!
Ed
Not according to Forced, hence the request for those who have been ticketed in a "legally registered vehicle in their county or state".
There are lots of obscure laws on the books that are antiquated or not enforced. Personally if a law is not enforced and I'm unable to understand any moral or logical benefit to the law, then I can sleep fine at night ignoring the law. I have no moral or logical problem with a diesel engine repowering a different vehicle as long as it meets emissions standards. Is anyone out there who has run into trouble from a diesel conversion after it was legally licensed in their home location?
03-09-2011, 09:46 AM
#41
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
This topic has drifted more than a 16yo driving an MR2 with slicks, I think it needs to get back on track.
1990 Power Ram 50 V6 SOHC 24V 6g72
I can be wrong, don't take everything I say as verbatim, please fact-check first.
My posts are my personal opinions and thoughts, unless otherwise noted.
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