Turbo knowledge wanted
Turbo knowledge wanted
First of all, great forum. There seem to be a couple of guys on here that know a thing or two about turbo's. I would like your opinion and input on what turbo I should be getting for my Benz.
the Facts : The car is a MB 300 Turbodiesel 4 door sedan from 1993. It has the OM603a engine with automatic transmission. 147hp stock with the KKK turbo non intercooled.
My wishes : I'd like to have ( and this is al "if possible" ) around 300 rear wheel HP. Somebody already told me that going past this will need internal strenghtening and I want to avoid this. I'll be installing preferebly a Water/air intercooler that I would like to weld/ integrate directly on to the intake manifold ( something from frozenboost.com). For the IP I'll be going with Tomnik and his 7,5 elements. The car is a daily driver, so I like fast boost and smooth drivebility, not so much a high HP dyno queen.
My question : For fast boost I would have to take a VNT turbo but as there is no one I know who has a good working electronic controller yet I'd like to start of with a cheaper, easier to find WG turbo. Maybe using a WG turbo at first will help to better determine the eventual size of my later VNT. So guys, I've been going trough compressor diameter Ind/Exd, Turbine diameter, compr. maps, trim, A/R..... but I'm afraid I don't know enough ( if anything ) about all this so a little help wanted. A last thing, I would like to keep the original exhaust manifold and preferbly use a turbo I can bolt on to that.
All your help and input is already greatly appreciated
Hellu guys,
First of all, great forum. There seem to be a couple of guys on here that know a thing or two about turbo's. I would like your opinion and input on what turbo I should be getting for my Benz.
the Facts : The car is a MB 300 Turbodiesel 4 door sedan from 1993. It has the OM603a engine with automatic transmission. 147hp stock with the KKK turbo non intercooled.
My wishes : I'd like to have ( and this is al "if possible" ) around 300 rear wheel HP. Somebody already told me that going past this will need internal strenghtening and I want to avoid this. I'll be installing preferebly a Water/air intercooler that I would like to weld/ integrate directly on to the intake manifold ( something from frozenboost.com). For the IP I'll be going with Tomnik and his 7,5 elements. The car is a daily driver, so I like fast boost and smooth drivebility, not so much a high HP dyno queen.
My question : For fast boost I would have to take a VNT turbo but as there is no one I know who has a good working electronic controller yet I'd like to start of with a cheaper, easier to find WG turbo. Maybe using a WG turbo at first will help to better determine the eventual size of my later VNT. So guys, I've been going trough compressor diameter Ind/Exd, Turbine diameter, compr. maps, trim, A/R..... but I'm afraid I don't know enough ( if anything ) about all this so a little help wanted. A last thing, I would like to keep the original exhaust manifold and preferbly use a turbo I can bolt on to that.
All your help and input is already greatly appreciated
Tall order! For 300RWHP you prolly looking at 375 ish at the flywheel?--Thats an awful Lot from a 'standard' 603!
There has been a few 'heated debates' as to what size turbo would be good for this sort of power range. The highly experienced Finns go for rather Large turbos like HX40 and even bigger!
I'm looking for around 350BHP from the later quad-valve 606 engine, general concensus appears that the HX35, 12cm housing, 60mm Turbine, and 54mm compressor is whats applicable in the W/G type.
--There does not appear to be a VNT type of suitable size thats easily usable...
But, for your application with the 603, I'm thinking you would need this turbo but you would defo need to dump the exhaust manifold I think, as you'll not bolt a 12cm split-housing to the standard log. You maybe have to change the rods, and fit a MPS-H.G. from 606--with a few extra holes drilled in it, maybe other mods. The Finns will know, and I'm guessing they will advise on these things...
Being that the 603 is only a bi-valve engine, its already at a dis-advantage breathing wise, so you'll need extra boost-pressure to overcome the reduced breathing that the 603 has in comparison to the later quad-valver engine--How much more, I have no idea...
Worth keeping in mind, Boost-Pressure in itself does not kill a prepared engine, Its the lack of it at high power settings and excess fuel causing very high EGT's melting and stressing things....
--So, first thing on the list should be an EGT guage!
![[Image: 300TDnoplate.jpg]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z128/alastairhcii/300TDnoplate.jpg)
Alastair E
08-20-2010, 03:45 PM #2Hmm--
Tall order! For 300RWHP you prolly looking at 375 ish at the flywheel?--Thats an awful Lot from a 'standard' 603!
There has been a few 'heated debates' as to what size turbo would be good for this sort of power range. The highly experienced Finns go for rather Large turbos like HX40 and even bigger!
I'm looking for around 350BHP from the later quad-valve 606 engine, general concensus appears that the HX35, 12cm housing, 60mm Turbine, and 54mm compressor is whats applicable in the W/G type.
--There does not appear to be a VNT type of suitable size thats easily usable...
But, for your application with the 603, I'm thinking you would need this turbo but you would defo need to dump the exhaust manifold I think, as you'll not bolt a 12cm split-housing to the standard log. You maybe have to change the rods, and fit a MPS-H.G. from 606--with a few extra holes drilled in it, maybe other mods. The Finns will know, and I'm guessing they will advise on these things...
Being that the 603 is only a bi-valve engine, its already at a dis-advantage breathing wise, so you'll need extra boost-pressure to overcome the reduced breathing that the 603 has in comparison to the later quad-valver engine--How much more, I have no idea...
Worth keeping in mind, Boost-Pressure in itself does not kill a prepared engine, Its the lack of it at high power settings and excess fuel causing very high EGT's melting and stressing things....
--So, first thing on the list should be an EGT guage!
(08-20-2010, 02:21 PM)GeertDB My wishes : I'd like to have ( and this is al "if possible" ) around 300 rear wheel HP. Somebody already told me that going past this will need internal strenghtening and I want to avoid this. I'll be installing preferebly a Water/air intercooler that I would like to weld/ integrate directly on to the intake manifold ( something from frozenboost.com). For the IP I'll be going with Tomnik and his 7,5 elements. The car is a daily driver, so I like fast boost and smooth drivebility, not so much a high HP dyno queen.That who says at over 300hp on turbo 603 need new internals dont know these engines at all. If you go water to air cooler, do it how it should do and install cooler and electric waterpump of that. There is a lot differens about ip.
Its depends how it has made. Someone change just elements.
Here in Finland Mynä-Diesel do a lot of modifications on it, so it give enough fuel on high rpm and still it has rpm limit.
And what comes about exhaust manifold i would throw that in trach.
What turbo to use i dont give a hint because here seems is a lot more wiser guys that has try in real how they work.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(08-20-2010, 02:21 PM)GeertDB My wishes : I'd like to have ( and this is al "if possible" ) around 300 rear wheel HP. Somebody already told me that going past this will need internal strenghtening and I want to avoid this. I'll be installing preferebly a Water/air intercooler that I would like to weld/ integrate directly on to the intake manifold ( something from frozenboost.com). For the IP I'll be going with Tomnik and his 7,5 elements. The car is a daily driver, so I like fast boost and smooth drivebility, not so much a high HP dyno queen.That who says at over 300hp on turbo 603 need new internals dont know these engines at all. If you go water to air cooler, do it how it should do and install cooler and electric waterpump of that. There is a lot differens about ip.
Its depends how it has made. Someone change just elements.
Here in Finland Mynä-Diesel do a lot of modifications on it, so it give enough fuel on high rpm and still it has rpm limit.
And what comes about exhaust manifold i would throw that in trach.
What turbo to use i dont give a hint because here seems is a lot more wiser guys that has try in real how they work.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(08-20-2010, 04:02 PM)jeemu That who says at over 300hp on turbo 603 need new internals dont know these engines at all.
Just people that understand physics. If he wants 300hp with a VNT he certainly WILL need stronger internals to handle the very high low end torque. With a wastegated turbo though, the torque peak RPM will be much higher hand the engine can handle the reduced torque.
ForcedInduction
08-20-2010, 04:10 PM
#4
(08-20-2010, 04:02 PM)jeemu That who says at over 300hp on turbo 603 need new internals dont know these engines at all.
Just people that understand physics. If he wants 300hp with a VNT he certainly WILL need stronger internals to handle the very high low end torque. With a wastegated turbo though, the torque peak RPM will be much higher hand the engine can handle the reduced torque.
(08-20-2010, 04:10 PM)ForcedInductionI think at those are read too much physics and they dont have actually done any engine, just calculate. Here is several cars that have a vnt/vgt.(08-20-2010, 04:02 PM)jeemu That who says at over 300hp on turbo 603 need new internals dont know these engines at all.
Just people that understand physics. If he wants 300hp with a VNT he certainly WILL need stronger internals to handle the very high low end torque. With a wastegated turbo though, the torque peak RPM will be much higher hand the engine can handle the reduced torque.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(08-20-2010, 04:10 PM)ForcedInductionI think at those are read too much physics and they dont have actually done any engine, just calculate. Here is several cars that have a vnt/vgt.(08-20-2010, 04:02 PM)jeemu That who says at over 300hp on turbo 603 need new internals dont know these engines at all.
Just people that understand physics. If he wants 300hp with a VNT he certainly WILL need stronger internals to handle the very high low end torque. With a wastegated turbo though, the torque peak RPM will be much higher hand the engine can handle the reduced torque.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(08-20-2010, 04:27 PM)jeemu I think
You seem to do quite a bit of that, yet you don't go any deeper into it than skimming the surface.
Somebody that makes very generic statements like "the engine can hold only 300HP" or "the engine is good for a lot more than 300hp" is either lacking in the understanding of physics on an engine or isn't bothering to be accurate.
The correct reply should be a question; "at what RPM do you want 300hp?" 300hp is easy for an OM60x at 4500rpm, but try to make 300hp at 2500rpm and your rods will turn into playdough. Thats not "read(ing) too much physics", its UNDERSTANDING physics.
ForcedInduction
08-20-2010, 05:09 PM
#6
(08-20-2010, 04:27 PM)jeemu I think
You seem to do quite a bit of that, yet you don't go any deeper into it than skimming the surface.
Somebody that makes very generic statements like "the engine can hold only 300HP" or "the engine is good for a lot more than 300hp" is either lacking in the understanding of physics on an engine or isn't bothering to be accurate.
The correct reply should be a question; "at what RPM do you want 300hp?" 300hp is easy for an OM60x at 4500rpm, but try to make 300hp at 2500rpm and your rods will turn into playdough. Thats not "read(ing) too much physics", its UNDERSTANDING physics.
(08-20-2010, 05:09 PM)ForcedInductionI am sorry about my english again.(08-20-2010, 04:27 PM)jeemu I think
You seem to do quite a bit of that, yet you don't go any deeper into it than skimming the surface.
Somebody that makes very generic statements like "the engine can hold only 300HP" or "the engine is good for a lot more than 300hp" is either lacking in the understanding of physics on an engine or isn't bothering to be accurate.
The correct reply should be a question; "at what RPM do you want 300hp?" 300hp is easy for an OM60x at 4500rpm, but try to make 300hp at 2500rpm and your rods will turn into playdough. Thats not "read(ing) too much physics", its UNDERSTANDING physics.
Are you so good tuner at you can tell us how to make 300hp at 2500rpm?
And that engine make power above of that?
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(08-20-2010, 05:09 PM)ForcedInductionI am sorry about my english again.(08-20-2010, 04:27 PM)jeemu I think
You seem to do quite a bit of that, yet you don't go any deeper into it than skimming the surface.
Somebody that makes very generic statements like "the engine can hold only 300HP" or "the engine is good for a lot more than 300hp" is either lacking in the understanding of physics on an engine or isn't bothering to be accurate.
The correct reply should be a question; "at what RPM do you want 300hp?" 300hp is easy for an OM60x at 4500rpm, but try to make 300hp at 2500rpm and your rods will turn into playdough. Thats not "read(ing) too much physics", its UNDERSTANDING physics.
Are you so good tuner at you can tell us how to make 300hp at 2500rpm?
And that engine make power above of that?
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
Thanks for your thoughts. If the nature of the engine is that it would produce 300 hp at higher RPM's so be it. Offcourse I'd like to have the HP's come at lower RPM but if that means risk of breaking and/or melting things or having to streghten everything inside than I will just settle for 300 HP at 4500 RPM. As for a big turbo like a HX35, I don't know how much lag comes with that but it might be better to go with a smaller turbo and adjust my power goals. I'm not that picky, like a said " 300 WHP if possible". From what I read so far it looks like I might be aiming a little high. By the way an EGT, boost, oil temp + press. gauge have already been installed. I believe Tomniks pump mod with the 7,5mm elements still has RPM limit and I guess it should deliver more then enough fuel to get to 300 HP. I don't know which Mod's the Myna guys make on their pump but they seem to make 500 HP easily and that might be a little to much for what I need. I'd like to keep it as simple as possible, I don't want to have to completly rebuild all my engine parts and engine bay. Altough I do admier all the guys who do, I have seen great things here on the forum and offcourse in Finland ( Love your work Jeemu ! ). I wish I could do all that to but I just don't have the time. Keep in mind I need a daily driver, not a quarter mile beast.
Guys,
Thanks for your thoughts. If the nature of the engine is that it would produce 300 hp at higher RPM's so be it. Offcourse I'd like to have the HP's come at lower RPM but if that means risk of breaking and/or melting things or having to streghten everything inside than I will just settle for 300 HP at 4500 RPM. As for a big turbo like a HX35, I don't know how much lag comes with that but it might be better to go with a smaller turbo and adjust my power goals. I'm not that picky, like a said " 300 WHP if possible". From what I read so far it looks like I might be aiming a little high. By the way an EGT, boost, oil temp + press. gauge have already been installed. I believe Tomniks pump mod with the 7,5mm elements still has RPM limit and I guess it should deliver more then enough fuel to get to 300 HP. I don't know which Mod's the Myna guys make on their pump but they seem to make 500 HP easily and that might be a little to much for what I need. I'd like to keep it as simple as possible, I don't want to have to completly rebuild all my engine parts and engine bay. Altough I do admier all the guys who do, I have seen great things here on the forum and offcourse in Finland ( Love your work Jeemu ! ). I wish I could do all that to but I just don't have the time. Keep in mind I need a daily driver, not a quarter mile beast.
And you bottom end last that for sure.
Other people read just books and calculate in theory, but dont have any experience in real.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
Hi. Of cource pump limit fuel supply. Mynä pump just do that later than others. If you put Tomnik pump and hx35 you can get that 300hp wery easy.
And you bottom end last that for sure.
Other people read just books and calculate in theory, but dont have any experience in real.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
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