Holset HX35 Install info on om603
Holset HX35 Install info on om603
08-19-2010, 09:12 PM
#51
2. 95e300dex - I am the one that has the HY35 and I may just try it. I just didn't want to have to redo the exhaust setup. Now with the exhaust housing being smaller and everything else being the same as the HX35, will my exhaust connect right up if I decide to swap from the HY to HX down the road? The HY has a 4" downpipe with it.
How quickly do you think the HY35 compared to the stock turbo? I may install it while waiting for 603 pump tuning gets developed.
jonbobshinigin
08-19-2010, 09:12 PM #511. It appears that nearly every post I make results in controversial arguments that, while sort of on topic, are not answering my post. Let work on that please!
2. 95e300dex - I am the one that has the HY35 and I may just try it. I just didn't want to have to redo the exhaust setup. Now with the exhaust housing being smaller and everything else being the same as the HX35, will my exhaust connect right up if I decide to swap from the HY to HX down the road? The HY has a 4" downpipe with it.
How quickly do you think the HY35 compared to the stock turbo? I may install it while waiting for 603 pump tuning gets developed.
08-19-2010, 10:52 PM
#52
This post was last modified: 08-19-2010, 10:53 PM by 95e300dez.
jonbobshinigin Go for it I would say you will have to change the down pipe. The HX has a 2.75 exhaust outlet so you will have to change the the actual down pipe with a cone of the turbo. The overall size should be close except the outlet of the cold side and the exhaust outlet.jonbobshinigin if you have any questions on the turbo chart it on http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/index.php
08-19-2010, 11:11 PM
#53
(08-19-2010, 02:12 PM)ForcedInductionSo you know how weak exhaust valve springs are in OM605/6? And have tried too small turbos on these particular engines?(08-19-2010, 09:04 AM)muuris Forced is lacking practical experience on this subject.Wrong.
(08-19-2010, 02:12 PM)ForcedInduction Wrong again. Only the common rail models have dynamic control of timing. The P7100 and VP44 injection systems are no better or worse than what we use and they're very popular in the 1000+hp group.Now I was talking about stock Cummins and how its timing characteristics are fitted to work with high backpressure etc. Even the old mechanical VE pump has better timing device than the Merc's mechanical one. VP44 has basically similiar.
jonbobshinigin go ahead and put HY35, but remember to install backpressure gauge and watch it so you won't cook the engine!
(08-19-2010, 02:12 PM)ForcedInductionSo you know how weak exhaust valve springs are in OM605/6? And have tried too small turbos on these particular engines?(08-19-2010, 09:04 AM)muuris Forced is lacking practical experience on this subject.Wrong.
(08-19-2010, 02:12 PM)ForcedInduction Wrong again. Only the common rail models have dynamic control of timing. The P7100 and VP44 injection systems are no better or worse than what we use and they're very popular in the 1000+hp group.Now I was talking about stock Cummins and how its timing characteristics are fitted to work with high backpressure etc. Even the old mechanical VE pump has better timing device than the Merc's mechanical one. VP44 has basically similiar.
jonbobshinigin go ahead and put HY35, but remember to install backpressure gauge and watch it so you won't cook the engine!
08-20-2010, 03:41 AM
#54
Pumps and timing is summit I DO know about! The old 'mechanical Rotary' type Bosch EP-VE pumps have a Hydraulically controlled Timing-Device. This is fully tailorable to low-load advance, advancement with speed, cold-start advance and many other features NOT found in the old M.B. centrifugal chain-driven timing-device.
The VP44 has a similar Timing-Device but the big difference is that its hydraulic components are controlled Electronically, as are the VP29 and VP30 types--so the sky's the limit as to what it can be tailored to do!
I have no idea what the P7100 has, but guess its similar to the M.B. chain-driven centrifugal device, as its a larger but similar style of pump...
So, Whats the issue with Exhaust-Valve Springs and retainers, and how does this relate to back-pressure....??
![[Image: 300TDnoplate.jpg]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z128/alastairhcii/300TDnoplate.jpg)
Alastair E
08-20-2010, 03:41 AM #54Ah, well--
Pumps and timing is summit I DO know about! The old 'mechanical Rotary' type Bosch EP-VE pumps have a Hydraulically controlled Timing-Device. This is fully tailorable to low-load advance, advancement with speed, cold-start advance and many other features NOT found in the old M.B. centrifugal chain-driven timing-device.
The VP44 has a similar Timing-Device but the big difference is that its hydraulic components are controlled Electronically, as are the VP29 and VP30 types--so the sky's the limit as to what it can be tailored to do!
I have no idea what the P7100 has, but guess its similar to the M.B. chain-driven centrifugal device, as its a larger but similar style of pump...
So, Whats the issue with Exhaust-Valve Springs and retainers, and how does this relate to back-pressure....??
08-20-2010, 06:44 AM
#56
(08-19-2010, 11:11 PM)muuris So you know how weak exhaust valve springs are in OM605/6? And have tried too small turbos on these particular engines?Yes. I have produced over 50psi backpressure on my engine during sudden acceleration and 40psi at maximum output with no ill effects or lack of power. My dyno sessions show a whopping 10hp drop from 4000rpm to 4800rpm, almost completely due to the natural torque curve decline and pump's RPM governor.
There is no data to suggest the 606 should perform differently.
Post a 605/6 dyno with an HY35 and show us how bad it really is, I have yet to see one.
I know for a fact backpressure isn't a danger on the 606, because of the stock turbo. The KKK K14 is normally associated with engines 15-50% the displacement and 63-105hp less than the 606a. There is no possible way that turbo doesn't have sky high backpressure on the stock engine, and there are tuners that will take it to 200hp without damage!
Given that, why would a turbo with 3x the K14's flow capability cause damage or lack of power with "only" 75% more output than the tuners?
Quote:Now with the exhaust housing being smaller and everything else being the same as the HX35, will my exhaust connect right up if I decide to swap from the HY to HX down the road? The HY has a 4" downpipe with it.Make a 6" adapter section. That way you'll only need a small section instead an entire downpipe and you can easily adapt to any turbo you choose down the line.
This post was last modified: 08-20-2010, 07:02 AM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
08-20-2010, 06:44 AM
#56
(08-19-2010, 11:11 PM)muuris So you know how weak exhaust valve springs are in OM605/6? And have tried too small turbos on these particular engines?Yes. I have produced over 50psi backpressure on my engine during sudden acceleration and 40psi at maximum output with no ill effects or lack of power. My dyno sessions show a whopping 10hp drop from 4000rpm to 4800rpm, almost completely due to the natural torque curve decline and pump's RPM governor.
There is no data to suggest the 606 should perform differently.
Post a 605/6 dyno with an HY35 and show us how bad it really is, I have yet to see one.
I know for a fact backpressure isn't a danger on the 606, because of the stock turbo. The KKK K14 is normally associated with engines 15-50% the displacement and 63-105hp less than the 606a. There is no possible way that turbo doesn't have sky high backpressure on the stock engine, and there are tuners that will take it to 200hp without damage!
Given that, why would a turbo with 3x the K14's flow capability cause damage or lack of power with "only" 75% more output than the tuners?
Quote:Now with the exhaust housing being smaller and everything else being the same as the HX35, will my exhaust connect right up if I decide to swap from the HY to HX down the road? The HY has a 4" downpipe with it.Make a 6" adapter section. That way you'll only need a small section instead an entire downpipe and you can easily adapt to any turbo you choose down the line.
08-20-2010, 07:15 AM
#57
(08-20-2010, 06:44 AM)ForcedInduction Yes. I have produced over 50psi backpressure on my engine . . .Come on. Your engine has nothing in common with OM606, except manufacturer and fuel. Besides you've got like 40hp/liter, how can you say anything about not-lacking-power-effects?
There is no data to suggest the 606 should perform differently.
Post a 605/6 dyno with an HY35 and show us how bad it really is.
I haven't had HY35 in mine, but jeemu has in his. I also have tried various backpressure/boost combos with VNT/VGT. So we might actually know something, when you are stubbornly arguing with jut some loose facts based on another engine. I don't want to dyno when it feels like something is strangling the engine.
(08-20-2010, 06:44 AM)ForcedInduction I know for a fact backpressure isn't a danger on the 606 due to the stock turbo.With stock turbo the boost peaks 12psi at low rpm and drops to 8psi at high revs. Why is this? Becouse with stock turbo, the backpressure would be too high even with such low boost. How about when its 30-45psi boost and similarly greater backpressure at high revs? Stock 606 doesn't pull hard 5000-6000rpm.
Try it out. I already have. It makes a hell of an ugly noise, the engine dies for few seconds (smokes blue, shakes, no power etc). When this happens under hard acceleration (small gear) it may even stall the engine. After a minute everything is ok and engine runs normally.
Changing exhaust valve springs to stronger ones cures this.
This post was last modified: 08-20-2010, 07:19 AM by muuris.
(08-20-2010, 06:44 AM)ForcedInduction Yes. I have produced over 50psi backpressure on my engine . . .Come on. Your engine has nothing in common with OM606, except manufacturer and fuel. Besides you've got like 40hp/liter, how can you say anything about not-lacking-power-effects?
There is no data to suggest the 606 should perform differently.
Post a 605/6 dyno with an HY35 and show us how bad it really is.
I haven't had HY35 in mine, but jeemu has in his. I also have tried various backpressure/boost combos with VNT/VGT. So we might actually know something, when you are stubbornly arguing with jut some loose facts based on another engine. I don't want to dyno when it feels like something is strangling the engine.
(08-20-2010, 06:44 AM)ForcedInduction I know for a fact backpressure isn't a danger on the 606 due to the stock turbo.With stock turbo the boost peaks 12psi at low rpm and drops to 8psi at high revs. Why is this? Becouse with stock turbo, the backpressure would be too high even with such low boost. How about when its 30-45psi boost and similarly greater backpressure at high revs? Stock 606 doesn't pull hard 5000-6000rpm.
Try it out. I already have. It makes a hell of an ugly noise, the engine dies for few seconds (smokes blue, shakes, no power etc). When this happens under hard acceleration (small gear) it may even stall the engine. After a minute everything is ok and engine runs normally.
Changing exhaust valve springs to stronger ones cures this.
08-20-2010, 08:53 AM
#58
(08-20-2010, 07:15 AM)muuris(08-20-2010, 06:44 AM)ForcedInduction Yes. I have produced over 50psi backpressure on my engine . . .Come on. Your engine has nothing in common with OM606, except manufacturer and fuel. Besides you've got like 40hp/liter, how can you say anything about not-lacking-power-effects?
There is no data to suggest the 606 should perform differently.
Post a 605/6 dyno with an HY35 and show us how bad it really is.
I haven't had HY35 in mine, but jeemu has in his. I also have tried various backpressure/boost combos with VNT/VGT. So we might actually know something, when you are stubbornly arguing with jut some loose facts based on another engine. I don't want to dyno when it feels like something is strangling the engine.
(08-20-2010, 06:44 AM)ForcedInduction I know for a fact backpressure isn't a danger on the 606 due to the stock turbo.With stock turbo the boost peaks 12psi at low rpm and drops to 8psi at high revs. Why is this? Becouse with stock turbo, the backpressure would be too high even with such low boost. How about when its 30-45psi boost and similarly greater backpressure at high revs? Stock 606 doesn't pull hard 5000-6000rpm.
Try it out. I already have. It makes a hell of an ugly noise, the engine dies for few seconds (smokes blue, shakes, no power etc). When this happens under hard acceleration (small gear) it may even stall the engine. After a minute everything is ok and engine runs normally.
Changing exhaust valve springs to stronger ones cures this.
I think we can ALL agree that excess Back-Pressure is a bad thing.
--In fact I can see both F.I.'s point and Muuris's points...
Guess where the issues are, are the Effects of this and how a larger turbo relates to it with Added Boost pressure, and the possible restrictions that 'add up' when using a larger turbo with higher pressures......
IS a 605/606 SO Substantially Different and MORE Sensitive, than --any other engine--with regards to this issue.
Many 'disagreements' between guys seems to relate to this point.
--Are the exhaust-valve-springs 'weaker' (Less poundage) than would normally be expected in the 05/06 engines?
One thing I remember, was one of Jeemu's comments--Of which he was very proud, He was getting only 1.8 bar backpressure (I think thats how much) with three bar boost, so this does seem to be a very important item to choosing a turbo....
Personally I havent got much of a clue-Turbo 'curves' are more complicated than Vacuum-Tube 'curves'-of which I'm aquainted!--Would just love some informed guy--who has tested one--to tell me best turbo to use with OM.606 to give 350BHP and GOOD Drivability!
--There has been debate on HX35, some say way too small housings some say its good....
I dont want to 'waste' 600 quid on a turbo to find its no good!
Alastair E
08-20-2010, 08:53 AM #58(08-20-2010, 07:15 AM)muuris(08-20-2010, 06:44 AM)ForcedInduction Yes. I have produced over 50psi backpressure on my engine . . .Come on. Your engine has nothing in common with OM606, except manufacturer and fuel. Besides you've got like 40hp/liter, how can you say anything about not-lacking-power-effects?
There is no data to suggest the 606 should perform differently.
Post a 605/6 dyno with an HY35 and show us how bad it really is.
I haven't had HY35 in mine, but jeemu has in his. I also have tried various backpressure/boost combos with VNT/VGT. So we might actually know something, when you are stubbornly arguing with jut some loose facts based on another engine. I don't want to dyno when it feels like something is strangling the engine.
(08-20-2010, 06:44 AM)ForcedInduction I know for a fact backpressure isn't a danger on the 606 due to the stock turbo.With stock turbo the boost peaks 12psi at low rpm and drops to 8psi at high revs. Why is this? Becouse with stock turbo, the backpressure would be too high even with such low boost. How about when its 30-45psi boost and similarly greater backpressure at high revs? Stock 606 doesn't pull hard 5000-6000rpm.
Try it out. I already have. It makes a hell of an ugly noise, the engine dies for few seconds (smokes blue, shakes, no power etc). When this happens under hard acceleration (small gear) it may even stall the engine. After a minute everything is ok and engine runs normally.
Changing exhaust valve springs to stronger ones cures this.
I think we can ALL agree that excess Back-Pressure is a bad thing.
--In fact I can see both F.I.'s point and Muuris's points...
Guess where the issues are, are the Effects of this and how a larger turbo relates to it with Added Boost pressure, and the possible restrictions that 'add up' when using a larger turbo with higher pressures......
IS a 605/606 SO Substantially Different and MORE Sensitive, than --any other engine--with regards to this issue.
Many 'disagreements' between guys seems to relate to this point.
--Are the exhaust-valve-springs 'weaker' (Less poundage) than would normally be expected in the 05/06 engines?
One thing I remember, was one of Jeemu's comments--Of which he was very proud, He was getting only 1.8 bar backpressure (I think thats how much) with three bar boost, so this does seem to be a very important item to choosing a turbo....
Personally I havent got much of a clue-Turbo 'curves' are more complicated than Vacuum-Tube 'curves'-of which I'm aquainted!--Would just love some informed guy--who has tested one--to tell me best turbo to use with OM.606 to give 350BHP and GOOD Drivability!
--There has been debate on HX35, some say way too small housings some say its good....
I dont want to 'waste' 600 quid on a turbo to find its no good!
08-20-2010, 01:30 PM
#59
It depend what eweryone want. Other turbo spools fast others think it not.
But if you need 350hp. You need hx35 size turbo, but not apple size turbine housing.
Turbo spool is others things just turbo.
My friend has same turbo on 606 engine than me 605.
He s injection pump is made differend company than my and he s engine that
same turbo spools much slower.
Of cource you can put hy35 on it. I have test that and so is many more here.
Not good experience than my self.
High back pressure dont do any good on these multivalve engines.
Engine totally die. You guys ca keep me stupid, but i have paid my learn money big time.
Its would be nice at when someone hit fact on the taple hi has experience little experience about these engines.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
Its wery dificult to say exact what turbo you need.
It depend what eweryone want. Other turbo spools fast others think it not.
But if you need 350hp. You need hx35 size turbo, but not apple size turbine housing.
Turbo spool is others things just turbo.
My friend has same turbo on 606 engine than me 605.
He s injection pump is made differend company than my and he s engine that
same turbo spools much slower.
Of cource you can put hy35 on it. I have test that and so is many more here.
Not good experience than my self.
High back pressure dont do any good on these multivalve engines.
Engine totally die. You guys ca keep me stupid, but i have paid my learn money big time.
Its would be nice at when someone hit fact on the taple hi has experience little experience about these engines.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
08-20-2010, 03:01 PM
#60
(08-20-2010, 01:30 PM)jeemu Its very dificult to say exactly what turbo you need.
It depends on what everyone wants. Some think turbo spools fast, others think it does not.
But if you need 350hp, you need hx35 size turbo, but not apple size turbine housing.
Turbo spool depends on other things than just the turbo.
My friend has same turbo on his 606 engine as I do on 605.
His injection pump is made different company than mine and on his engine that same turbo spools much slower.
Of course you can put hy35 on it. I have tested that and so many more here.
Not good experience for myself.
High back pressure doesn't do any good on these multivalve engines.
Engine totally dies. You guys can call me stupid, but I have paid money to learn big time.
It would be nice when someone hits facts on the table he has little experience about these engines.
I think this is where disagreements may start--
Its the percieved Expectation of what is 'good' spooling and 'slow' spooling
--Like asking someone --do you like tea or coffee!--we all have our own tastes, and what we want out of the modification at the end....
--I'm gonna go with the general concensus and get HX35, 12cm housing 60mm turbine, and 'super-trim' compressor 54mm--This seems the 'accepted' compromise between 'spooling' and back-pressure arguements for the OM.606.
(Looks like I may have new job, large Co is taking over the plant I designed and built, so hopefully I'll get my old job back, and I can buy the trans, turbo, manifold, pump-elements etc--Still haven't tracked down any 300SE engine-mounts though!)
I'm thinking this turbo would work out reasonably for the O/P 603 as well....
This post was last modified: 08-20-2010, 03:10 PM by Alastair E.
Alastair E
08-20-2010, 03:01 PM #60(08-20-2010, 01:30 PM)jeemu Its very dificult to say exactly what turbo you need.
It depends on what everyone wants. Some think turbo spools fast, others think it does not.
But if you need 350hp, you need hx35 size turbo, but not apple size turbine housing.
Turbo spool depends on other things than just the turbo.
My friend has same turbo on his 606 engine as I do on 605.
His injection pump is made different company than mine and on his engine that same turbo spools much slower.
Of course you can put hy35 on it. I have tested that and so many more here.
Not good experience for myself.
High back pressure doesn't do any good on these multivalve engines.
Engine totally dies. You guys can call me stupid, but I have paid money to learn big time.
It would be nice when someone hits facts on the table he has little experience about these engines.
I think this is where disagreements may start--
Its the percieved Expectation of what is 'good' spooling and 'slow' spooling
--Like asking someone --do you like tea or coffee!--we all have our own tastes, and what we want out of the modification at the end....
--I'm gonna go with the general concensus and get HX35, 12cm housing 60mm turbine, and 'super-trim' compressor 54mm--This seems the 'accepted' compromise between 'spooling' and back-pressure arguements for the OM.606.
(Looks like I may have new job, large Co is taking over the plant I designed and built, so hopefully I'll get my old job back, and I can buy the trans, turbo, manifold, pump-elements etc--Still haven't tracked down any 300SE engine-mounts though!)
I'm thinking this turbo would work out reasonably for the O/P 603 as well....
08-20-2010, 03:36 PM
#61
(08-20-2010, 03:01 PM)Alastair E (Looks like I may have new job, large Co is taking over the plant I designed and built, so hopefully I'll get my old job back, and I can buy the trans, turbo, manifold, pump-elements etc--Still haven't tracked down any 300SE engine-mounts though!)I hope at you get that job. I give thumb up for you
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(08-20-2010, 03:01 PM)Alastair E (Looks like I may have new job, large Co is taking over the plant I designed and built, so hopefully I'll get my old job back, and I can buy the trans, turbo, manifold, pump-elements etc--Still haven't tracked down any 300SE engine-mounts though!)I hope at you get that job. I give thumb up for you
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
08-20-2010, 04:42 PM
#62
(08-20-2010, 07:15 AM)muuris I haven't had HY35 in mineThen why are you on a "have you done it yourself" rampage?
Quote:It makes a hell of an ugly noise, the engine dies for few seconds (smokes blue, shakes, no power etc). When this happens under hard acceleration (small gear) it may even stall the engine. After a minute everything is ok and engine runs normally.Sounds like the pressure is affecting the old hardened stem seals and they're binding or allowing liquid oil to get through.
What is the spring-rate of the original springs and the stronger ones you installed? I can't find the specs in my OM604/5/6 FSM.
Do you know the spring-rate of VNT equipped engines like the OM647/8?
OM617
589N=132lb
OM60x
790N=177lb
This post was last modified: 08-20-2010, 04:54 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
08-20-2010, 04:42 PM
#62
(08-20-2010, 07:15 AM)muuris I haven't had HY35 in mineThen why are you on a "have you done it yourself" rampage?
Quote:It makes a hell of an ugly noise, the engine dies for few seconds (smokes blue, shakes, no power etc). When this happens under hard acceleration (small gear) it may even stall the engine. After a minute everything is ok and engine runs normally.Sounds like the pressure is affecting the old hardened stem seals and they're binding or allowing liquid oil to get through.
What is the spring-rate of the original springs and the stronger ones you installed? I can't find the specs in my OM604/5/6 FSM.
Do you know the spring-rate of VNT equipped engines like the OM647/8?
OM617
589N=132lb
OM60x
790N=177lb
08-20-2010, 04:54 PM
#63
(08-20-2010, 04:42 PM)ForcedInduction Sounds like the pressure is affecting the old hardened stem seals and they're binding or allowing liquid oil to get through.No its not. And igf there would be an old seals it really dont do than kind problem.
(08-20-2010, 04:42 PM)ForcedInduction What is the spring-rate of the original springs and the stronger ones you installed?We use strong enough.
Do you know the spring-rate of VNT equipped engines like the OM647/8?
This post was last modified: 08-20-2010, 04:55 PM by jeemu.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(08-20-2010, 04:42 PM)ForcedInduction Sounds like the pressure is affecting the old hardened stem seals and they're binding or allowing liquid oil to get through.No its not. And igf there would be an old seals it really dont do than kind problem.
(08-20-2010, 04:42 PM)ForcedInduction What is the spring-rate of the original springs and the stronger ones you installed?We use strong enough.
Do you know the spring-rate of VNT equipped engines like the OM647/8?
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
08-20-2010, 04:56 PM
#64
(08-20-2010, 04:54 PM)jeemu We use strong enough.
"Strong enough" isn't a number.
This post was last modified: 08-20-2010, 04:56 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
08-20-2010, 04:56 PM
#64
(08-20-2010, 04:54 PM)jeemu We use strong enough.
"Strong enough" isn't a number.
08-20-2010, 05:00 PM
#65
(08-20-2010, 04:56 PM)ForcedInductionYes i know that.(08-20-2010, 04:54 PM)jeemu We use strong enough.
"Strong enough" isn't a number.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(08-20-2010, 04:56 PM)ForcedInductionYes i know that.(08-20-2010, 04:54 PM)jeemu We use strong enough.
"Strong enough" isn't a number.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
08-20-2010, 05:05 PM
#67
This is a place of public cooperation, education and the free exchange of information. Secrecy has no place here. If you aren't willing to share everything you've learned then don't even bother commenting on the subject.
ForcedInduction
08-20-2010, 05:05 PM
#67
Then why hide the number? Afraid you'll lose a race because somebody installs springs a little stronger than yours?
This is a place of public cooperation, education and the free exchange of information. Secrecy has no place here. If you aren't willing to share everything you've learned then don't even bother commenting on the subject.
08-20-2010, 05:26 PM
#68
(08-20-2010, 05:05 PM)ForcedInduction Then why hide the number? Afraid you'll lose a race because somebody installs springs a little stronger than yours?No i m not afraid, because i m not race on streets like you. And i m not build my car of any race. Just own fun because i can. It s my daily drive car. Drag race i building a lot diferent car.
My springs seat load is 29kg
(08-20-2010, 05:05 PM)ForcedInduction This is a place of public cooperation, education and the free exchange of information. Secrecy has no place here. If you aren't willing to share everything you've learned then don't even bother commenting on the subject.Are you really serious of that? Still you speak at here is free exchange of information. Is that really true?
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(08-20-2010, 05:05 PM)ForcedInduction Then why hide the number? Afraid you'll lose a race because somebody installs springs a little stronger than yours?No i m not afraid, because i m not race on streets like you. And i m not build my car of any race. Just own fun because i can. It s my daily drive car. Drag race i building a lot diferent car.
My springs seat load is 29kg
(08-20-2010, 05:05 PM)ForcedInduction This is a place of public cooperation, education and the free exchange of information. Secrecy has no place here. If you aren't willing to share everything you've learned then don't even bother commenting on the subject.Are you really serious of that? Still you speak at here is free exchange of information. Is that really true?
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
08-21-2010, 03:13 PM
#69
(08-20-2010, 05:26 PM)jeemu My springs seat load is 29kgThank you for sharing.
Was that so hard?Quote:Are you really serious of that?Like a heart attack. All I ask is that it be conveyed in a civil, adult mentality (unless the context of the discussion is joking around, such as Silberpfeil's "Anyone in upstate NY or the northeast???" thread). If somebody asks me a question I do my best to answer it candidly and accurately, and I'd prefer everyone to do the same.
Quote:i m not race on streets like youI don't race on streets. I go to Bandimere Speedway for that.
This post was last modified: 08-21-2010, 03:17 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
08-21-2010, 03:13 PM
#69
(08-20-2010, 05:26 PM)jeemu My springs seat load is 29kgThank you for sharing.
Was that so hard?Quote:Are you really serious of that?Like a heart attack. All I ask is that it be conveyed in a civil, adult mentality (unless the context of the discussion is joking around, such as Silberpfeil's "Anyone in upstate NY or the northeast???" thread). If somebody asks me a question I do my best to answer it candidly and accurately, and I'd prefer everyone to do the same.
Quote:i m not race on streets like youI don't race on streets. I go to Bandimere Speedway for that.
08-21-2010, 04:42 PM
#70
(08-21-2010, 03:13 PM)ForcedInductionNo not hard at all, but if use hydraulic lifters i dont go stiffer springs(08-20-2010, 05:26 PM)jeemu My springs seat load is 29kgThank you for sharing.
(08-21-2010, 03:13 PM)ForcedInduction Like a heart attack. All I ask is that it be conveyed in a civil, adult mentality (unless the context of the discussion is joking around, such as Silberpfeil's "Anyone in upstate NY or the northeast???" thread). If somebody asks me a question I do my best to answer it candidly and accurately, and I'd prefer everyone to do the same.How you can answer at people of turbo choice, if you think at if it works on 5.9ltr Gummins it will work on Mb? You dont have any experience of 605/6 and those problems, but i do and i hae solved those.
This post was last modified: 08-21-2010, 04:44 PM by jeemu.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(08-21-2010, 03:13 PM)ForcedInductionNo not hard at all, but if use hydraulic lifters i dont go stiffer springs(08-20-2010, 05:26 PM)jeemu My springs seat load is 29kgThank you for sharing.
(08-21-2010, 03:13 PM)ForcedInduction Like a heart attack. All I ask is that it be conveyed in a civil, adult mentality (unless the context of the discussion is joking around, such as Silberpfeil's "Anyone in upstate NY or the northeast???" thread). If somebody asks me a question I do my best to answer it candidly and accurately, and I'd prefer everyone to do the same.How you can answer at people of turbo choice, if you think at if it works on 5.9ltr Gummins it will work on Mb? You dont have any experience of 605/6 and those problems, but i do and i hae solved those.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
08-21-2010, 08:08 PM
#71
So...if I replace my stock Turbo and run a 3" straight pipe, what should I expect to happen?
Slower spool time?
I will likely plumb up an intercooler soon as well as I am waiting for the Floyd elements to be developed for the 603 pump. Although obviously I can wait on that.
jonbobshinigin
08-21-2010, 08:08 PM #71Well...I got an HX35 for $250 that was rebuilt less than 3000 miles ago. I am unsure about the compressor wheel size but I figure it is a good price. I suppose I can change those out later if need be once I record some numbers and such. The guy I am getting it from said that the Turbo was rebuilt by a shop and balanced.
So...if I replace my stock Turbo and run a 3" straight pipe, what should I expect to happen?
Slower spool time?
I will likely plumb up an intercooler soon as well as I am waiting for the Floyd elements to be developed for the 603 pump. Although obviously I can wait on that.
08-22-2010, 01:38 AM
#72
(08-20-2010, 05:04 PM)gsxr The 602/603 springs are not the same as 605/606 springs, correct? Let's remember that the original poster was asking about an OM603... not sure if that will affect anything, but well, just sayin'....
Correct. These problems aren't nearly as bad in OM601-603. Or OM615-617. That doesn't mean they like high backpressure either.
(08-21-2010, 08:08 PM)jonbobshinigin So...if I replace my stock Turbo and run a 3" straight pipe, what should I expect to happen?
Slower spool time?
Slower spool, but with stock fueling it makes no big difference. Most of the max fueling can be burned without any boost. But when you'll get the pump with big elements, it will spool much better. Pay attention to LDA settings, if you want maximal spool with minimal smoke. Stock LDA is kinda on-off, you really need one which has temperate non-noost fueling and starts to offer more food instantly at 2psi and gives the full amount at the pressure engine can burn everything with some smoke.
(08-20-2010, 05:04 PM)gsxr The 602/603 springs are not the same as 605/606 springs, correct? Let's remember that the original poster was asking about an OM603... not sure if that will affect anything, but well, just sayin'....
Correct. These problems aren't nearly as bad in OM601-603. Or OM615-617. That doesn't mean they like high backpressure either.
(08-21-2010, 08:08 PM)jonbobshinigin So...if I replace my stock Turbo and run a 3" straight pipe, what should I expect to happen?
Slower spool time?
Slower spool, but with stock fueling it makes no big difference. Most of the max fueling can be burned without any boost. But when you'll get the pump with big elements, it will spool much better. Pay attention to LDA settings, if you want maximal spool with minimal smoke. Stock LDA is kinda on-off, you really need one which has temperate non-noost fueling and starts to offer more food instantly at 2psi and gives the full amount at the pressure engine can burn everything with some smoke.
08-22-2010, 02:48 PM
#73
(08-21-2010, 04:42 PM)jeemu How you can answer at people of turbo choice, if you think at if it works on 5.9ltr Gummins it will work on Mb?Because I know it will.
ForcedInduction
08-22-2010, 02:48 PM
#73
(08-21-2010, 04:42 PM)jeemu How you can answer at people of turbo choice, if you think at if it works on 5.9ltr Gummins it will work on Mb?Because I know it will.
08-23-2010, 01:30 AM
#76
This post was last modified: 08-23-2010, 01:38 AM by mbenzo300td.
mbenzo300td
08-23-2010, 01:30 AM #76Im glad i stumbled upon this thread. I also have a 603 with the U.S. spec sd manifold where ive converted the egr port to an egt port. The car is sitting in my garrage because of busted fuel lines and the desire for a new turbo. I was going to bolt the old us spec turbo back on but to fab a downpipie and drill out the flange holes, its just worth it in my opinion to go after a bigger turbo. Ive adjusted the pump and messed with the alda and now im ready for good efficiant boost. My plan was vnt, but without the electronic controls for such a thing, I think im just going to go with a hx35. However my question is, will an hx 35 yield boost to about 5k, and if so when will it start to spool? Johnbob, have you swapped out the coolant return line off of the back of the water pump housing?
08-23-2010, 04:02 AM
#77
jonbobshinigin
08-23-2010, 04:02 AM #77I have not swapped the coolant line. What purpose does swapping it serve? I am glad you are getting something out ofthis thread too!
08-23-2010, 08:17 AM
#78
(08-22-2010, 02:48 PM)ForcedInduction Because I know it will.
You think. Why won't you try it first on OM60x, we may continue this discussion afterwards when you have actual experience with the engine and the turbo.
(08-22-2010, 03:35 PM)ForcedInduction No difference. They both work exactly the same.
Maybe for your 140 hp or so it makes no difference, but for engines with more grunt the internal wg is not really an option. They are always quite small. Even with my previous 240 hp I6 diesel I had to modify the HX35 internal wastegate as boost kept climbing uncontrolled. I machined the port to be some 20% bigger in area, and it worked ok then. But would not have worked any more with, say, 300 hp.
This post was last modified: 08-23-2010, 08:19 AM by muuris.
(08-22-2010, 02:48 PM)ForcedInduction Because I know it will.
You think. Why won't you try it first on OM60x, we may continue this discussion afterwards when you have actual experience with the engine and the turbo.
(08-22-2010, 03:35 PM)ForcedInduction No difference. They both work exactly the same.
Maybe for your 140 hp or so it makes no difference, but for engines with more grunt the internal wg is not really an option. They are always quite small. Even with my previous 240 hp I6 diesel I had to modify the HX35 internal wastegate as boost kept climbing uncontrolled. I machined the port to be some 20% bigger in area, and it worked ok then. But would not have worked any more with, say, 300 hp.
08-23-2010, 08:43 AM
#79
jonbobshinigin
08-23-2010, 08:43 AM #79Muuris, what do you recommend for an external rig than? I learn as I go and I have yet to learn much about the wastegate part of this setup. You all have been very helpful; as soon as I get the turbo, I will update my project page with Pics and info!
08-23-2010, 10:08 AM
#80
--He also has a pressure-equalising valve on the Inlet for opening before boost builds--apparently, assists in spooling and limitting black-smoke somewhat...
Alastair E
08-23-2010, 10:08 AM #80As I recall, Jeemu is using a 50mm external W/G on his 550 screamer....
--He also has a pressure-equalising valve on the Inlet for opening before boost builds--apparently, assists in spooling and limitting black-smoke somewhat...
08-23-2010, 10:19 AM
#81
jonbobshinigin
08-23-2010, 10:19 AM #81Jeemu, would you mind posting a pic or two on the wastegate setup please? I have no idea how to go about this...I guess I will be doing a lot of reading!
08-23-2010, 11:34 AM
#82
I have divided manifold so i have pipes both side and just before wg they go one bigger pipe and there is wall between, so gas dont mix.
Here is photo my old manifold, but same way has my new one.
http://kuva1.kuvablogi.com/iso/img1784504.jpg
http://kuva1.kuvablogi.com/iso/img1784505.jpg
Here is photo of one w201 where we change om605.
It was old Mynä pump. We also installed it an HY35, but owner change it staight away when got back home. He drive it 500km.
Too much backpressure so have to use small boost, otherwice engine just dead.
http://kuva1.kuvablogi.com/iso/img1078604.jpg
This post was last modified: 08-23-2010, 11:39 AM by jeemu.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
External wg is much better than internal. Both do same thing but internal do much boor.
I have divided manifold so i have pipes both side and just before wg they go one bigger pipe and there is wall between, so gas dont mix.
Here is photo my old manifold, but same way has my new one.
http://kuva1.kuvablogi.com/iso/img1784504.jpg
http://kuva1.kuvablogi.com/iso/img1784505.jpg
Here is photo of one w201 where we change om605.
It was old Mynä pump. We also installed it an HY35, but owner change it staight away when got back home. He drive it 500km.
Too much backpressure so have to use small boost, otherwice engine just dead.
http://kuva1.kuvablogi.com/iso/img1078604.jpg
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
08-23-2010, 12:10 PM
#83
mbenzo300td
08-23-2010, 12:10 PM #83Jonbob your manifold will hit the return line and wont fit on the block. You will need the line from a 601 or 602.
08-23-2010, 12:11 PM
#84
George3soccer
08-23-2010, 12:11 PM #84i like the 190 install, where to get a 603 manifold to fit a w201, with a split external wg, I hate the stock manifold.
08-23-2010, 12:51 PM
#85
I am now going to find the cooling line...researching now! I read about that before and how people were using the ones from the same vehicle they got the manifold from but I forgot.
jonbobshinigin
08-23-2010, 12:51 PM #85It took me a while to track one down...I believe they are found on the 1991-1996 300SD and S350. Find one that someone is parting out. I was looking for another part on Craigslist and asked one guy if he had the manifold and he did. $125 shipped and it was a Euro!
I am now going to find the cooling line...researching now! I read about that before and how people were using the ones from the same vehicle they got the manifold from but I forgot.
08-23-2010, 04:34 PM
#86
mbenzo300td
08-23-2010, 04:34 PM #86Iv had some pictures up of my setup you may have seen them on another post. Most likely very similar to yours.
08-23-2010, 04:52 PM
#87
jonbobshinigin
08-23-2010, 04:52 PM #87FUNNY mbenz300td...I was just searching EVERYWHERE trying to find that "mounting a manifold" post but I did not have a title or username! Thanks so much!! What was your resolution?
08-23-2010, 04:54 PM
#88
George3soccer
08-23-2010, 04:54 PM #88No the euro I can get very easy. I mean the good looking manifold that jeemu has.
08-23-2010, 05:58 PM
#89
(08-23-2010, 10:08 AM)Alastair E --He also has a pressure-equalising valve on the Inlet for opening before boost builds--apparently, assists in spooling and limitting black-smoke somewhat.
Yes. This is because the turbo is so large for his engine that the engine responds faster than the compressor wheel can flow and the turbo becomes an intake restriction for a brief period.
(08-23-2010, 08:17 AM)muuris You know. Why won't you try it first on OM60x, we may continue this discussion afterwards when you have actual experience with the engine and the turbo.
No need. You fail to understand that the discussion is about the OM603 and there is a big difference from it to an OM606. Please try to keep on topic and follow along.
This post was last modified: 08-23-2010, 06:06 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
08-23-2010, 05:58 PM
#89
(08-23-2010, 10:08 AM)Alastair E --He also has a pressure-equalising valve on the Inlet for opening before boost builds--apparently, assists in spooling and limitting black-smoke somewhat.
Yes. This is because the turbo is so large for his engine that the engine responds faster than the compressor wheel can flow and the turbo becomes an intake restriction for a brief period.
(08-23-2010, 08:17 AM)muuris You know. Why won't you try it first on OM60x, we may continue this discussion afterwards when you have actual experience with the engine and the turbo.
No need. You fail to understand that the discussion is about the OM603 and there is a big difference from it to an OM606. Please try to keep on topic and follow along.
08-23-2010, 09:20 PM
#90
Ok its my tern to complain about the arguing on this website. Forced you have had some good contributions but this is out of your lane. You do not have a 603 and Jeemu and Muuris doesn't but a 606 is a whole lot closer then the old 617. Forced has a lot of technical knowledge in turbos but has little experience in the 60x motors. I think we need to stop pushing buttons and work together. The Finns have helped me a ton and people need to respect there experience they are the ones you have seen there movies and want our car to be that much fun.
08-23-2010, 09:38 PM
#91
I am not trying to bust anyone's balls here but Forced could work on his presentation a bit. His insight is great, as is anyones who may be willing to do some research by themselves and then ask the right questions. I would say this is the vast majority of us. But Forced, I have seen more "You wrongs" from you than anyone. Plus, I have come across several other boards where this is discussion about your Forum manners, none of which I came across intentionally. I was looking up info on my 603.
Anyhow, all is forgiven, let's stay on topic. I mean that!
jonbobshinigin
08-23-2010, 09:38 PM #91As the OP, agreed. Aside from that let us not forget that HOW you say something is just as important as WHAT you say! Another factor IS the fact that the Finnish pioneered this as I understand things. That has to be worth SOMETHING right? I'd be inclined to trust a 12 year old Finnish boy whose dad knows about Super Diesels over an American...haha.
I am not trying to bust anyone's balls here but Forced could work on his presentation a bit. His insight is great, as is anyones who may be willing to do some research by themselves and then ask the right questions. I would say this is the vast majority of us. But Forced, I have seen more "You wrongs" from you than anyone. Plus, I have come across several other boards where this is discussion about your Forum manners, none of which I came across intentionally. I was looking up info on my 603.
Anyhow, all is forgiven, let's stay on topic. I mean that!
08-24-2010, 12:27 AM
#92
(08-23-2010, 08:43 AM)jonbobshinigin Muuris, what do you recommend for an external rig than?
Here's a picture of the HX35 internal wastegate already machined a bit bigger. It's really small route for exhaust to bypass turbo. The hole in the divider wall (inside the turbo, in the throat) makes spool-up worse, but wg works better and more equal on both sides (with divided manifold).
There are many good wastegates available. Just don't buy these cheap HKS copies. I've had one (40mm) and a friend at our garage has a 50mm one. We both agree it's crappy quality. The valve movement is short and mine leaked while valve was closed. I had to use grinding paste and work for it to make the leak so small it wouldn't matter. At first it caused 500rpm later spool-up. Now using this (or at least exactly similiar looking one) and have nothing bad to say about it.
(08-23-2010, 08:17 AM)muuris You think.
Forced, this is how I wrote it. Why did you change it to this? Are you acting you age?
(08-23-2010, 05:58 PM)ForcedInduction(08-23-2010, 08:17 AM)muuris You know
(08-23-2010, 05:58 PM)ForcedInduction No need.
Come on, give up! You keep up throwing these, but you just don't know everything. I'm not saying I do, but I also have no issue admitting it.
(08-23-2010, 05:58 PM)ForcedInduction You fail to understand that the discussion is about the OM603 and there is a big difference from it to an OM606. Please try to keep on topic and follow along.
I said OM60x, that includes 601-606. They are all quite closely related. In this topic you have compared backpressure problems to OM617, I guess that is keeping to topic because you said it..?
(08-23-2010, 08:43 AM)jonbobshinigin Muuris, what do you recommend for an external rig than?
Here's a picture of the HX35 internal wastegate already machined a bit bigger. It's really small route for exhaust to bypass turbo. The hole in the divider wall (inside the turbo, in the throat) makes spool-up worse, but wg works better and more equal on both sides (with divided manifold).
There are many good wastegates available. Just don't buy these cheap HKS copies. I've had one (40mm) and a friend at our garage has a 50mm one. We both agree it's crappy quality. The valve movement is short and mine leaked while valve was closed. I had to use grinding paste and work for it to make the leak so small it wouldn't matter. At first it caused 500rpm later spool-up. Now using this (or at least exactly similiar looking one) and have nothing bad to say about it.
(08-23-2010, 08:17 AM)muuris You think.
Forced, this is how I wrote it. Why did you change it to this? Are you acting you age?
(08-23-2010, 05:58 PM)ForcedInduction(08-23-2010, 08:17 AM)muuris You know
(08-23-2010, 05:58 PM)ForcedInduction No need.
Come on, give up! You keep up throwing these, but you just don't know everything. I'm not saying I do, but I also have no issue admitting it.
(08-23-2010, 05:58 PM)ForcedInduction You fail to understand that the discussion is about the OM603 and there is a big difference from it to an OM606. Please try to keep on topic and follow along.
I said OM60x, that includes 601-606. They are all quite closely related. In this topic you have compared backpressure problems to OM617, I guess that is keeping to topic because you said it..?
08-24-2010, 04:05 AM
#93
(08-23-2010, 04:54 PM)George3soccer No the euro I can get very easy. I mean the good looking manifold that jeemu has.
KKD Motorsport here-
http://www.kkdmotorsport.com/
Alastair E
08-24-2010, 04:05 AM #93(08-23-2010, 04:54 PM)George3soccer No the euro I can get very easy. I mean the good looking manifold that jeemu has.
KKD Motorsport here-
http://www.kkdmotorsport.com/
08-24-2010, 07:08 AM
#94
(08-24-2010, 12:27 AM)muuris Come on, give up! You keep up throwing these, but you just don't know everything. I'm not saying I do, but I also have no issue admitting it.Then stop being a hypocrite.
(08-20-2010, 07:15 AM)muuris I haven't had HY35 in mine
Quote:That has to be worth SOMETHING right?Not quite. Nobel pioneered dynamite, but everyone else figured out the best ways to use it. Finns threw a big turbo and a lot of fuel at small engines, but everyone else is figuring out how to do better.
Quote:But Forced, I have seen more "You wrongs" from you than anyone.Thats the way it is when people post wrong things. If somebody doesn't come forward to say "you're wrong" then it will continue to be conveyed as "right" information. As continues to frequently be the case on BW and PP since I voluntarily left both. (Yes, voluntarily. Dealing with very incompetent moderators isn't worth the hassle of trying to help strangers for free.)
Even high paid journalists have an editor check their info/sources before printing.
Quote:Plus, I have come across several other boards where this is discussion about your Forum mannersSuch places lack whats known as "balls". People too sensitive to take criticism constructively. Such people are blinded by change and believe they see "fuck you" instead of "you're wrong". They need to step back and, as you said, "be willing to do some research by themselves and then ask the right questions."
Instead of flat out saying "An HY35 won't work" say why it won't work for that particular application, keeping in mind that your "experience" probably won't fit exactly to their needs/desires.
This post was last modified: 08-24-2010, 07:11 AM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
08-24-2010, 07:08 AM
#94
(08-24-2010, 12:27 AM)muuris Come on, give up! You keep up throwing these, but you just don't know everything. I'm not saying I do, but I also have no issue admitting it.Then stop being a hypocrite.
(08-20-2010, 07:15 AM)muuris I haven't had HY35 in mine
Quote:That has to be worth SOMETHING right?Not quite. Nobel pioneered dynamite, but everyone else figured out the best ways to use it. Finns threw a big turbo and a lot of fuel at small engines, but everyone else is figuring out how to do better.
Quote:But Forced, I have seen more "You wrongs" from you than anyone.Thats the way it is when people post wrong things. If somebody doesn't come forward to say "you're wrong" then it will continue to be conveyed as "right" information. As continues to frequently be the case on BW and PP since I voluntarily left both. (Yes, voluntarily. Dealing with very incompetent moderators isn't worth the hassle of trying to help strangers for free.)
Even high paid journalists have an editor check their info/sources before printing.
Quote:Plus, I have come across several other boards where this is discussion about your Forum mannersSuch places lack whats known as "balls". People too sensitive to take criticism constructively. Such people are blinded by change and believe they see "fuck you" instead of "you're wrong". They need to step back and, as you said, "be willing to do some research by themselves and then ask the right questions."
Instead of flat out saying "An HY35 won't work" say why it won't work for that particular application, keeping in mind that your "experience" probably won't fit exactly to their needs/desires.
08-24-2010, 07:14 AM
#95
Or even smaller engine as 605.
Only what you do, is saying that it will work, and no any experience about these engines.
And what rule is that you can criticism, but anybody cant say you.
Right away messages delete and warning levels go high?
This post was last modified: 08-24-2010, 07:15 AM by jeemu.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
If you read what we are write, you know why that dont work on 603.
Or even smaller engine as 605.
Only what you do, is saying that it will work, and no any experience about these engines.
And what rule is that you can criticism, but anybody cant say you.
Right away messages delete and warning levels go high?
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
08-24-2010, 07:20 AM
#96
(08-10-2010, 11:48 AM)jonbobshinigin (Originally this post for for an HY35 install, but as you read you will see why I changed to using an HX35)
I am planning on installing my HY35 and W140 Euro Manifold onto my stock 1987 300TDT. I would like to install this and get some numbers; at least do some runs of my iPhone's "Dynolicious" program which has accurately assessed my car at 145HP and clocks my 0-60. Better than nothing! Then I would like to add a 3" straight pipe and run numbers again. All of which will be documented on this site.
This is my first time doing something like this. I will be doing it at a friends shop most likely and he knows quite a bit about turbos and is a good mechanic. I also have access to a Fab shop and people that can weld, cut, plasma table, shear, brake, etc.
Parts list (feel free to add):
- Gasket for Exhaust Manifold to Head
- Gasket for Turbo to Manifold
- Bolts and Nuts for Manifold and Turbo (Do I need these?)
Questions:
- Since the Euro manifold put the Turbo on top, will I need to re-clock the turbo for ports to aim proper direction?
- How will I need to accommodate for an oil line? My guess is the the stock ones will not line up.
- What is the best way to connect the 4" downpipe to my existing exhaust?
- On the intake size, where can I find the tubing I need to go from Air Filter to Intake Port?
- Eventually I will put in an Intercooler, but in the meantime, how do I get the Crossover pipe to connect to HY35?
See signature for car profile:
It is your project, DO IT THE WAY YOU WANT TO!
Take as much insight as you can from EVERYONE and toss out the BULLSHIT and bench racing and use what is viable to assist you in your endeavor.
Sometimes it just takes some good old fashioned trial and error. Everyone builds their engine for their own liking. If you want a car to drive on the streets and have some low end grunt then that is your goal. If you want to see how much power you can squeeze from these engines then more power to you, sometimes it takes compromise. Personally I would like to see the latter and applaud those that push the envelope by fabbing custom parts and making more power than was thought possible.
On my project I did quite a bit of research, but was still unsure if the exhaust housing on the turbo was correct...well after hooking up the gauges it shows that the EMP and boost look really good and play well together.
I for one like to be the underdog and do what others say can't and won't work and love to prove them wrong.
Good luck!
This post was last modified: 08-24-2010, 07:23 AM by Rudolf_Diesel.
1982 300SD: 304,xxx Super M-pump with 7.5mm elements, 265 Nozzles, GT35 water cooled turbo, M90 Supercharger, A/W Intercooler, Serpentine drive belt, 3" SS exhaust with Magnaflow muffler, 240 breather, AEM dry Filter, Manual Boost Control, EGT / Boost / EMP gauges....Moved on to other projects
1995 F-350 7.3L PSD: 230,xxx 6.0 IC, DIY Stage 1 Injectors, 17* hpop, Tony Wildman Chip, John Wood Trans, 6.4L TC, 3" down pipe, 4" straight exhaust, 310 HP on wheel dyno - 8500# dually: 0-60 in 6.98
Suzuki Samurai: VW 1.9L TD, Trackick doubler transfer case (made by me) 5.8:1 transfer case gears, YJ springs front and rear with rear missing links, wheel base extended 14", diffs welded, some day a VNT.
Rudolf_Diesel
08-24-2010, 07:20 AM #96(08-10-2010, 11:48 AM)jonbobshinigin (Originally this post for for an HY35 install, but as you read you will see why I changed to using an HX35)
I am planning on installing my HY35 and W140 Euro Manifold onto my stock 1987 300TDT. I would like to install this and get some numbers; at least do some runs of my iPhone's "Dynolicious" program which has accurately assessed my car at 145HP and clocks my 0-60. Better than nothing! Then I would like to add a 3" straight pipe and run numbers again. All of which will be documented on this site.
This is my first time doing something like this. I will be doing it at a friends shop most likely and he knows quite a bit about turbos and is a good mechanic. I also have access to a Fab shop and people that can weld, cut, plasma table, shear, brake, etc.
Parts list (feel free to add):
- Gasket for Exhaust Manifold to Head
- Gasket for Turbo to Manifold
- Bolts and Nuts for Manifold and Turbo (Do I need these?)
Questions:
- Since the Euro manifold put the Turbo on top, will I need to re-clock the turbo for ports to aim proper direction?
- How will I need to accommodate for an oil line? My guess is the the stock ones will not line up.
- What is the best way to connect the 4" downpipe to my existing exhaust?
- On the intake size, where can I find the tubing I need to go from Air Filter to Intake Port?
- Eventually I will put in an Intercooler, but in the meantime, how do I get the Crossover pipe to connect to HY35?
See signature for car profile:
It is your project, DO IT THE WAY YOU WANT TO!
Take as much insight as you can from EVERYONE and toss out the BULLSHIT and bench racing and use what is viable to assist you in your endeavor.
Sometimes it just takes some good old fashioned trial and error. Everyone builds their engine for their own liking. If you want a car to drive on the streets and have some low end grunt then that is your goal. If you want to see how much power you can squeeze from these engines then more power to you, sometimes it takes compromise. Personally I would like to see the latter and applaud those that push the envelope by fabbing custom parts and making more power than was thought possible.
On my project I did quite a bit of research, but was still unsure if the exhaust housing on the turbo was correct...well after hooking up the gauges it shows that the EMP and boost look really good and play well together.
I for one like to be the underdog and do what others say can't and won't work and love to prove them wrong.
Good luck!
1982 300SD: 304,xxx Super M-pump with 7.5mm elements, 265 Nozzles, GT35 water cooled turbo, M90 Supercharger, A/W Intercooler, Serpentine drive belt, 3" SS exhaust with Magnaflow muffler, 240 breather, AEM dry Filter, Manual Boost Control, EGT / Boost / EMP gauges....Moved on to other projects
1995 F-350 7.3L PSD: 230,xxx 6.0 IC, DIY Stage 1 Injectors, 17* hpop, Tony Wildman Chip, John Wood Trans, 6.4L TC, 3" down pipe, 4" straight exhaust, 310 HP on wheel dyno - 8500# dually: 0-60 in 6.98
Suzuki Samurai: VW 1.9L TD, Trackick doubler transfer case (made by me) 5.8:1 transfer case gears, YJ springs front and rear with rear missing links, wheel base extended 14", diffs welded, some day a VNT.
08-24-2010, 08:38 AM
#97
(08-24-2010, 07:08 AM)ForcedInduction Thats the way it is when people post wrong things. If somebody doesn't come forward to say "you're wrong" then it will continue to be conveyed as "right" information.
(08-24-2010, 07:08 AM)ForcedInduction Instead of flat out saying "An HY35 won't work" say why it won't work for that particular application, keeping in mind that your "experience" probably won't fit exactly to their needs/desires.My point exactly. Why won't you act like it youself! Stop saying "you're wrong" without any explanations. You are the one who has been mostly wrong in this thread and have mislead people the most!
(08-19-2010, 02:12 PM)ForcedInductionSo you should have experience with OM60x. Which you don't. So I'm RIGHT. It's better to have some experience, even if it wouldn't fit 100% to other's needs, than none.(08-19-2010, 09:04 AM)muuris Forced is lacking practical experience on this subject.Wrong.
(08-16-2010, 03:19 PM)ForcedInduction Finns threw a big turbo and a lot of fuel at small engines, but everyone else is figuring out how to do better.You are doing better by putting a VNT turbo in a 1970s diesel? You have seen just some cars at some random videos. The secrects of the most advanced builds are kept in the garage (not referring to me or jeemu) and are not shouted in the Net.
(08-19-2010, 02:12 PM)ForcedInduction Wrong again. Only the common rail models have dynamic control of timing. The P7100 and VP44 injection systems are no better or worse than what we use and they're very popular in the 1000+hp group.Now you're wrong again. Find out how the VP44 timing system works, it is lightyears ahead of the Merc system.
(08-20-2010, 04:42 PM)ForcedInduction Sounds like the pressure is affecting the old hardened stem seals and they're binding or allowing liquid oil to get through.You're wrong! That would explain smoking, but how would it explain the engine to lose power, to stall, to shake etc. And just by a miracle, the old seals would fix themselves every time in less than half a minute and work alright until next backpressure peak.
(08-22-2010, 03:35 PM)ForcedInductionIsn't this misleading people? Internal wastegates don't work with high hp! You're wrong!(08-22-2010, 03:28 PM)jonbobshinigin Should I run internal or external wastegate?No difference. They both work exactly the same.
(08-24-2010, 07:08 AM)ForcedInduction Then stop being a hypocrite.Now who might be the worst in these forums..
Finally, I found this particularly amusing:
(08-24-2010, 07:08 AM)ForcedInduction Such places lack whats known as "balls". People too sensitive to take criticism constructively. Such people are blinded by change and believe they see "fuck you" instead of "you're wrong".Aren't you too sensitive? You just ban everyone who criticises you. Or change other's words in your quotes.
Could we start a new thread Forced vs the rest of the world
But seriously, could we continue this offtopic somewhere else.
This post was last modified: 08-24-2010, 08:42 AM by muuris.
(08-24-2010, 07:08 AM)ForcedInduction Thats the way it is when people post wrong things. If somebody doesn't come forward to say "you're wrong" then it will continue to be conveyed as "right" information.
(08-24-2010, 07:08 AM)ForcedInduction Instead of flat out saying "An HY35 won't work" say why it won't work for that particular application, keeping in mind that your "experience" probably won't fit exactly to their needs/desires.My point exactly. Why won't you act like it youself! Stop saying "you're wrong" without any explanations. You are the one who has been mostly wrong in this thread and have mislead people the most!
(08-19-2010, 02:12 PM)ForcedInductionSo you should have experience with OM60x. Which you don't. So I'm RIGHT. It's better to have some experience, even if it wouldn't fit 100% to other's needs, than none.(08-19-2010, 09:04 AM)muuris Forced is lacking practical experience on this subject.Wrong.
(08-16-2010, 03:19 PM)ForcedInduction Finns threw a big turbo and a lot of fuel at small engines, but everyone else is figuring out how to do better.You are doing better by putting a VNT turbo in a 1970s diesel? You have seen just some cars at some random videos. The secrects of the most advanced builds are kept in the garage (not referring to me or jeemu) and are not shouted in the Net.
(08-19-2010, 02:12 PM)ForcedInduction Wrong again. Only the common rail models have dynamic control of timing. The P7100 and VP44 injection systems are no better or worse than what we use and they're very popular in the 1000+hp group.Now you're wrong again. Find out how the VP44 timing system works, it is lightyears ahead of the Merc system.
(08-20-2010, 04:42 PM)ForcedInduction Sounds like the pressure is affecting the old hardened stem seals and they're binding or allowing liquid oil to get through.You're wrong! That would explain smoking, but how would it explain the engine to lose power, to stall, to shake etc. And just by a miracle, the old seals would fix themselves every time in less than half a minute and work alright until next backpressure peak.
(08-22-2010, 03:35 PM)ForcedInductionIsn't this misleading people? Internal wastegates don't work with high hp! You're wrong!(08-22-2010, 03:28 PM)jonbobshinigin Should I run internal or external wastegate?No difference. They both work exactly the same.
(08-24-2010, 07:08 AM)ForcedInduction Then stop being a hypocrite.Now who might be the worst in these forums..
Finally, I found this particularly amusing:
(08-24-2010, 07:08 AM)ForcedInduction Such places lack whats known as "balls". People too sensitive to take criticism constructively. Such people are blinded by change and believe they see "fuck you" instead of "you're wrong".Aren't you too sensitive? You just ban everyone who criticises you. Or change other's words in your quotes.
Could we start a new thread Forced vs the rest of the world
But seriously, could we continue this offtopic somewhere else.
08-24-2010, 08:53 AM
#98
Jeemu has used the HY35, I stumbled across a post from him where he explained the process and why he changed. Jeemu and Muuris are trying to help through a difficult language barrier but I must say they are doing very well.
Forced, I certainly agree that a lot of crap continues these days because everyone wants to believe in no absolutes and no one wants to say "you are wrong". It's just that if you goal is to feel good than "you are wrong" is sufficient. However, if you want to correct them and help them learn, it is better to tackle it from another angle. I have seen you do both and give some great analogies. That style helps me see it another way so that those of us less techy about this can understand! My argument is not whether you are right or wrong.
And yes, this is offtopic, but case study shows that this topic is futile.
This post was last modified: 08-24-2010, 09:00 AM by jonbobshinigin.
jonbobshinigin
08-24-2010, 08:53 AM #98Thank you Rudolph, your post was well recieved because of how you presented it. As for the trial and error thing, I simply do not have the funds to buy several turbos, at least not at this very moment. Also, I'm not a ninja Jedi awesome at all things fabbing guy like you! Your stuff is great! Obviously there is no way to do this inexpensively and there is a margin of error that needs to be accounted for. Since my goal is 60-70% what the Finns get from a 603, I am just using their template.
Jeemu has used the HY35, I stumbled across a post from him where he explained the process and why he changed. Jeemu and Muuris are trying to help through a difficult language barrier but I must say they are doing very well.
Forced, I certainly agree that a lot of crap continues these days because everyone wants to believe in no absolutes and no one wants to say "you are wrong". It's just that if you goal is to feel good than "you are wrong" is sufficient. However, if you want to correct them and help them learn, it is better to tackle it from another angle. I have seen you do both and give some great analogies. That style helps me see it another way so that those of us less techy about this can understand! My argument is not whether you are right or wrong.
And yes, this is offtopic, but case study shows that this topic is futile.
08-24-2010, 10:27 AM
#99
(08-24-2010, 08:53 AM)jonbobshinigin I simply do not have the funds to buy several turbos, at least not at this very moment.That is the reason why me and Muuris is trying to say at that hy35 dont fit on your engine. Here are a lot more ST tuners in Finland than me and Muuris. We are tested a lot differend turbos, so we know pretty much what works and what dont.
Why goi ass forward on the three.
(08-24-2010, 08:53 AM)jonbobshinigin Jeemu has used the HY35, I stumbled across a post from him where he explained the process and why he changed.And so are many else.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
(08-24-2010, 08:53 AM)jonbobshinigin I simply do not have the funds to buy several turbos, at least not at this very moment.That is the reason why me and Muuris is trying to say at that hy35 dont fit on your engine. Here are a lot more ST tuners in Finland than me and Muuris. We are tested a lot differend turbos, so we know pretty much what works and what dont.
Why goi ass forward on the three.
(08-24-2010, 08:53 AM)jonbobshinigin Jeemu has used the HY35, I stumbled across a post from him where he explained the process and why he changed.And so are many else.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
08-24-2010, 01:01 PM
#100
mbenzo300td
08-24-2010, 01:01 PM #100Jonbob, i bought my coolant line from a member off of peachparts. There was also u 601 in the local wrecking yard that turned up. So what are your plans for a downpipe with the hx35?
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