Another thread about VNT's and possibly injectors
Another thread about VNT's and possibly injectors
first of all I would like to say I don't own a merc, so if I'm not allowed to post on here about my peugeot then I shall stop doing so,
there reason I'm here is that I've seen all sorts of systems to control a VNT mechanically, and as my car doesn't have an ECU this seems just the job,
My car is a Peugeot 306 1.9 turbo diesel (XUD9 engine) and it has the Bosch VE fuel pump on it, (it's an IDI engine with 2v per cylinder single overhead cam and has a gt15 turbo with 90hp and 150lbft)
so which is a good way of controlling a VNT on this?
I am looking for more power/torque but the reason for following this root rather than just slapping a big turbo on it, is to make it still have good low end power when driving at normal speeds,
also I haven't found any uprated injectors for it ethier and wanted to know about possibly making some up,
thank you in advance
Brett
JarrusJenkins
08-27-2010, 11:40 AM #1Hi there,
first of all I would like to say I don't own a merc, so if I'm not allowed to post on here about my peugeot then I shall stop doing so,
there reason I'm here is that I've seen all sorts of systems to control a VNT mechanically, and as my car doesn't have an ECU this seems just the job,
My car is a Peugeot 306 1.9 turbo diesel (XUD9 engine) and it has the Bosch VE fuel pump on it, (it's an IDI engine with 2v per cylinder single overhead cam and has a gt15 turbo with 90hp and 150lbft)
so which is a good way of controlling a VNT on this?
I am looking for more power/torque but the reason for following this root rather than just slapping a big turbo on it, is to make it still have good low end power when driving at normal speeds,
also I haven't found any uprated injectors for it ethier and wanted to know about possibly making some up,
thank you in advance
Brett
The good ole XUD9...(Guess we shouldnt really talk about 'em here, Forced would have a fit--But, what the 'ell!
)--My next 'favorite' from M.B...
TBH, I dont think going VNT on the XUD would be such a good idea, its a high-revver anyway for much in the way of power, VNT expensive and that dosh can be spent better elsewhere IMO.
Injectors on IDi engines are Not the limiting factor, stick to Standard types--NO point in messing with them (Assuming 'Diesel' as the fuel).
IDi aint like VW TDi....
IME, adjust boost pressure by W/G to around 17psi, and VE Pressure-compensator by as much as 2 turns (Experiment at half turn at a time) watch for smoke at sharp throttle opening at the lower revs range.
Adjust Max fuel set-screw by 1/4 turn initially and then by 1/8th turn Inwards and check for smoke at High revs, then Re-check for smoke at low-revs and re-adjust pressure-compensator....
Fit GOOD Front-Mount Intercooler if you want to go much more than 17 PSI boost, and get EGT guage on there (That'll be fun mounting probe on a 306!)
--The XUD 9 was in a fair stage of tune for a 1900 engine anyway, so dont expect miracles.....
Oh, BTW, Change Cam-Belt if you 'like' your revs!
--You could always fit the 2.1 from a 405 or Xantia, dump the EPIC and fit the EP-VE ,(same basic block) and 12 valve head is much more tunable....
![[Image: 300TDnoplate.jpg]](http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z128/alastairhcii/300TDnoplate.jpg)
Alastair E
08-27-2010, 04:17 PM #2Hahh...
The good ole XUD9...(Guess we shouldnt really talk about 'em here, Forced would have a fit--But, what the 'ell!)
--My next 'favorite' from M.B...
TBH, I dont think going VNT on the XUD would be such a good idea, its a high-revver anyway for much in the way of power, VNT expensive and that dosh can be spent better elsewhere IMO.
Injectors on IDi engines are Not the limiting factor, stick to Standard types--NO point in messing with them (Assuming 'Diesel' as the fuel).
IDi aint like VW TDi....
IME, adjust boost pressure by W/G to around 17psi, and VE Pressure-compensator by as much as 2 turns (Experiment at half turn at a time) watch for smoke at sharp throttle opening at the lower revs range.
Adjust Max fuel set-screw by 1/4 turn initially and then by 1/8th turn Inwards and check for smoke at High revs, then Re-check for smoke at low-revs and re-adjust pressure-compensator....
Fit GOOD Front-Mount Intercooler if you want to go much more than 17 PSI boost, and get EGT guage on there (That'll be fun mounting probe on a 306!)
--The XUD 9 was in a fair stage of tune for a 1900 engine anyway, so dont expect miracles.....
Oh, BTW, Change Cam-Belt if you 'like' your revs!
--You could always fit the 2.1 from a 405 or Xantia, dump the EPIC and fit the EP-VE ,(same basic block) and 12 valve head is much more tunable....
I think it is a fantastic engine to start with, they are quick rev happy for a diesel as well, but I do know that the pump does cut the fuelling back after 4k rpm and stops advancing after 4k rpm as well, but in fairness after 4k rpm the turbo start to tail off as well not due to the pump limiting fuel the turbo just hits it's choke limit, I've done a lot of research on this engine and I just seen the VNT articles on here that made me wonder....
i'll give you an example, you can buy a piper fast road cam for this engine (not bad for a crusty old diesel like mine) which apparantly will let it rev over 6k, really? well the thing is that I want to be able to maintain a good amount of torque over 5k rpm without having a horrible bottom end, there is plenty you can do to these and I intend to try a lot of it,
yes it will be costly and i understand that but it really doesn't bother me, I like my car and don't intend to change it for another so I may as well tune it up a bit,
JarrusJenkins
08-27-2010, 07:15 PM #3I already got the stage one tune on my car at the moment, and it's really helps big time making it quicker,
I think it is a fantastic engine to start with, they are quick rev happy for a diesel as well, but I do know that the pump does cut the fuelling back after 4k rpm and stops advancing after 4k rpm as well, but in fairness after 4k rpm the turbo start to tail off as well not due to the pump limiting fuel the turbo just hits it's choke limit, I've done a lot of research on this engine and I just seen the VNT articles on here that made me wonder....
i'll give you an example, you can buy a piper fast road cam for this engine (not bad for a crusty old diesel like mine) which apparantly will let it rev over 6k, really? well the thing is that I want to be able to maintain a good amount of torque over 5k rpm without having a horrible bottom end, there is plenty you can do to these and I intend to try a lot of it,
yes it will be costly and i understand that but it really doesn't bother me, I like my car and don't intend to change it for another so I may as well tune it up a bit,
This can be set higher by setting the throttle-stop by around 4 turns out. This should take it to around 4K8 before foldback starts...
--BUT Take care, I'm not sure a 'standard' bottom end will cope with too much in the way of 'over-revs'.......
My old Xantia I set at 4 turns out, never had a problem, but I dont know where the actual grenading speed for that motor would be.....
--Worth remembering that the Turbo pistons are much heavier than the N/A, and the reciprocating loads at Over-speed are what break the rod-bolts, leading to a window in the block!
Worth checking the back-pressure pre-turbo, I suspect that the standard turbo may well be choking it over 4K5, but try the 4 turns and see how it goes.....
Alastair E
08-28-2010, 04:07 AM #4'Foldback' does start at around 4K3 on the EP-VE set for the XUD-9....
This can be set higher by setting the throttle-stop by around 4 turns out. This should take it to around 4K8 before foldback starts...
--BUT Take care, I'm not sure a 'standard' bottom end will cope with too much in the way of 'over-revs'.......
My old Xantia I set at 4 turns out, never had a problem, but I dont know where the actual grenading speed for that motor would be.....
--Worth remembering that the Turbo pistons are much heavier than the N/A, and the reciprocating loads at Over-speed are what break the rod-bolts, leading to a window in the block!
Worth checking the back-pressure pre-turbo, I suspect that the standard turbo may well be choking it over 4K5, but try the 4 turns and see how it goes.....
insistently, there's a guy I know who put an e300d turbo on his 306 1.9 dt, he runs it at 30 psi, with an 11mm pump head (i believe you can get bigger ones as well) and the gov mods by shimming it down the spring inside the pump with water injection and the standard top mount ic, and he make over 170 hp, dyno proven, I still think that can be bettered though, and when you say about reciprocating mass, the xud is good for just over 5k, if i want any more than that I will replace the piston pins and while I'm there I may fit some uprated rods as well, (a set from the hdi90 engine are exactly the same size but they are forged)
and also i'm going to use lpg injection
so you still think that a vnt is a bad idea? I'm still intrigued by what results it could yield, and the fact that no one else has done it on one of these (that i know of) makes it more of an adventure
JarrusJenkins
08-28-2010, 09:39 AM #5Yeah like i said, it will hit it's choke limit before the redline, that why I was looking into bigger turbos,
insistently, there's a guy I know who put an e300d turbo on his 306 1.9 dt, he runs it at 30 psi, with an 11mm pump head (i believe you can get bigger ones as well) and the gov mods by shimming it down the spring inside the pump with water injection and the standard top mount ic, and he make over 170 hp, dyno proven, I still think that can be bettered though, and when you say about reciprocating mass, the xud is good for just over 5k, if i want any more than that I will replace the piston pins and while I'm there I may fit some uprated rods as well, (a set from the hdi90 engine are exactly the same size but they are forged)
and also i'm going to use lpg injection
so you still think that a vnt is a bad idea? I'm still intrigued by what results it could yield, and the fact that no one else has done it on one of these (that i know of) makes it more of an adventure
(08-28-2010, 09:39 AM)Jarrus he runs it at 30 psi, with an 11mm pump head (i believe you can get bigger ones as well) and the gov mods by shimming it down the spring inside the pump with water injection and the standard top mount ic, and he make over 170 hp
Thats a LOT of boost for only 170hp!
ForcedInduction
08-28-2010, 01:03 PM
#6
(08-28-2010, 09:39 AM)Jarrus he runs it at 30 psi, with an 11mm pump head (i believe you can get bigger ones as well) and the gov mods by shimming it down the spring inside the pump with water injection and the standard top mount ic, and he make over 170 hp
Thats a LOT of boost for only 170hp!
and another reason for going VNT is so I don't have to run mega boost to achieve the results I want,
what system is relatively simple to incorporate? the engine is a low milage well maintained example
JarrusJenkins
08-28-2010, 01:18 PM #7Indeed it is, what you have to remember is though is that it is a 1.9 8v idi turbo diesel that runs about 10.5:1 so it needs mega boost to compensate, plus it's peak power only comes at about 4k but with some more mods to the advancing mechanism (so it keep advancing past 4k rpm)then more power could easily be had, and he didn't have the fast road cam in it ether so there more there, and the fact he was running the standard intercooler all plays a part...
and another reason for going VNT is so I don't have to run mega boost to achieve the results I want,
what system is relatively simple to incorporate? the engine is a low milage well maintained example
--Thats just Daft if he's gone to the trouble of fitting an E300 KKK OM.606 Turbocharger to it! F-M I.C. are EASY to get and SO much better.....
--What is the Back-Presssure at Turbo Inlet while its making 30psi??! (That turbo has TINY turbine-housing, and I believe it was only designed for a max of 15psi output.....)
Bet Inlet air-temps are around 150+ degrees at least!
Dread to think what the EGT's are at 170BHP with 11mm plunger--sounds like a recipe for a melt-down,--Just my opinion....!
BTW, you cannot just dump a 11mm hydraulic-head on a 9mm EP-VE and expect it to work correctly!
--Injection pumps are complicated devices with many non obvious selectable/adjustable parts--Been there, Did the course, bought the book on 'em and Done That, years ago!
--Was this done at a proper Injection place and tested on a test-bench?
BTW, The XUD-9 has CR of 23:1 Not 10.5:1, Guess you're thinking of the Pet-Rol engine!......
A VNT wont give you any more Top End performance over and above a suitable W/G Turbo. They were intended to reduce the 'turbo-lag' and develop boost at a lower engine speed, not to increase the top-end!
IF you DO try, I would fit the Rods and gudgeon-pins from HDi before even starting, too much power at Low revs will bend a weak rod, and stress the bottom-end....
By all means, Try It!--But IMHO, you would be Much better off with the 2.1 12 valver, 200cc more capacity, More Torque, and a MUCH better cyl-head--In so-called, 'Stage-One' 150BHP is easily obtained and with no mega-bux messing round....
I'll ask the Finns for ya, They seem to be the best at Tuning DIESEL engines, --see what they have to say!
Alastair E
08-28-2010, 03:16 PM #830 psi on top mount intercooler--Madness!--ALL authorities on the XUD-9 say that to go above 17PSI on top-mount is utterly pointless, as the density of the air-charge becomes too weak....
--Thats just Daft if he's gone to the trouble of fitting an E300 KKK OM.606 Turbocharger to it! F-M I.C. are EASY to get and SO much better.....
--What is the Back-Presssure at Turbo Inlet while its making 30psi??! (That turbo has TINY turbine-housing, and I believe it was only designed for a max of 15psi output.....)
Bet Inlet air-temps are around 150+ degrees at least!
Dread to think what the EGT's are at 170BHP with 11mm plunger--sounds like a recipe for a melt-down,--Just my opinion....!
BTW, you cannot just dump a 11mm hydraulic-head on a 9mm EP-VE and expect it to work correctly!
--Injection pumps are complicated devices with many non obvious selectable/adjustable parts--Been there, Did the course, bought the book on 'em and Done That, years ago!
--Was this done at a proper Injection place and tested on a test-bench?
BTW, The XUD-9 has CR of 23:1 Not 10.5:1, Guess you're thinking of the Pet-Rol engine!......
A VNT wont give you any more Top End performance over and above a suitable W/G Turbo. They were intended to reduce the 'turbo-lag' and develop boost at a lower engine speed, not to increase the top-end!
IF you DO try, I would fit the Rods and gudgeon-pins from HDi before even starting, too much power at Low revs will bend a weak rod, and stress the bottom-end....
By all means, Try It!--But IMHO, you would be Much better off with the 2.1 12 valver, 200cc more capacity, More Torque, and a MUCH better cyl-head--In so-called, 'Stage-One' 150BHP is easily obtained and with no mega-bux messing round....
I'll ask the Finns for ya, They seem to be the best at Tuning DIESEL engines, --see what they have to say!
true I know you can't just bodge an 11mm plunger in a 9mm pump, that's why I would ask an expert to do it,
I know VNT were designed to reduce turbo lag, that why I want to go down this route, so I still get a descent bottom end, I do find my car quite laggy so this is my way of curing the problem,
the is also running water injection so it's not just the top mount intercooler,
the reason why I'm not going to use the 2.1 is that I can't get one and my engine is a low milage example and I've used it for the majority of it's life so I know 90% of the engines history and I've taken care of it, and things like piper making a cam for it and not the 2.1,
I mean I am grateful of your input, I really am but I'm determined to do a good job of this and I have spent countless hours researching into this project,
and yeah I guess I need to tell the guy who posted 10.5:1 then he got his fact wrong, cause 23:1 sounds more like a diesel CR to me
I guess this means I will have to post my project on here then when I start it, which will be soon so I cna show you what I mean by it all
JarrusJenkins
08-28-2010, 04:02 PM #9Thanks,
true I know you can't just bodge an 11mm plunger in a 9mm pump, that's why I would ask an expert to do it,
I know VNT were designed to reduce turbo lag, that why I want to go down this route, so I still get a descent bottom end, I do find my car quite laggy so this is my way of curing the problem,
the is also running water injection so it's not just the top mount intercooler,
the reason why I'm not going to use the 2.1 is that I can't get one and my engine is a low milage example and I've used it for the majority of it's life so I know 90% of the engines history and I've taken care of it, and things like piper making a cam for it and not the 2.1,
I mean I am grateful of your input, I really am but I'm determined to do a good job of this and I have spent countless hours researching into this project,
and yeah I guess I need to tell the guy who posted 10.5:1 then he got his fact wrong, cause 23:1 sounds more like a diesel CR to me
I guess this means I will have to post my project on here then when I start it, which will be soon so I cna show you what I mean by it all
http://www.hevosvoima.com/foorumi/index.php
--when you register, change user-options to English...
Alastair E
08-29-2010, 09:07 AM #10register and ask them at this forum...
http://www.hevosvoima.com/foorumi/index.php
--when you register, change user-options to English...
Was googling and came across this thread, its my xud thats 170 bhp, well 172.7 lol I'll just settle a few myths lol it was running 30psi because of a wastegate 'fault' the aim was 25-26, charge temps are around 40 degrees, the tmic isnt that bad and Ive added w/m injection, the w/m wasnt on on the dyno so Id expect 180 possibly with 50/50 mixture. Its the standard turbo thats way out of efficiency above 18psi and causes the mega charge temps. It doesnt seem to surge at 30psi so I'll aim for that with the mbc fitted, I believe the pump and turbo to be capable of 200hp so when the new engine is fitted with egt, emp, arp studs we'll see if itll break 200hp, meantime my other engine is in bits, the rods are being 'peened and pistons and precups ceramic coated as well as a little cr drop, then we'll see if we can get 200hp *reliably*
My next car for sure will be a w210 om606, I can insure one in the summer so will hang around on here! Always meant to join but never got round to as you can read everything without.
I would appreciate some of your comments on my plans, for the xud lol, especailly with regards to the cr drop, I was reading a toyota patent which showed a piston design with a groove between the cloverleaf, this is supposed to be more efficient at high rpm? Excellent forum btw, cant wait to get a real toy, can never help thinking if I put the same work/effort int an om606 as the little pug I might have a 'real' car.......
con67
10-02-2010, 07:34 AM #12WOW my car is famous! oj
Was googling and came across this thread, its my xud thats 170 bhp, well 172.7 lol I'll just settle a few myths lol it was running 30psi because of a wastegate 'fault' the aim was 25-26, charge temps are around 40 degrees, the tmic isnt that bad and Ive added w/m injection, the w/m wasnt on on the dyno so Id expect 180 possibly with 50/50 mixture. Its the standard turbo thats way out of efficiency above 18psi and causes the mega charge temps. It doesnt seem to surge at 30psi so I'll aim for that with the mbc fitted, I believe the pump and turbo to be capable of 200hp so when the new engine is fitted with egt, emp, arp studs we'll see if itll break 200hp, meantime my other engine is in bits, the rods are being 'peened and pistons and precups ceramic coated as well as a little cr drop, then we'll see if we can get 200hp *reliably*
My next car for sure will be a w210 om606, I can insure one in the summer so will hang around on here! Always meant to join but never got round to as you can read everything without.
I would appreciate some of your comments on my plans, for the xud lol, especailly with regards to the cr drop, I was reading a toyota patent which showed a piston design with a groove between the cloverleaf, this is supposed to be more efficient at high rpm? Excellent forum btw, cant wait to get a real toy, can never help thinking if I put the same work/effort int an om606 as the little pug I might have a 'real' car.......
And con I'm jarrus464 from pug306.net so I know of your car,
Problem is that no one seems interested in helping me achieve my goals with my car though that's why I've branched out to find other help,
JarrusJenkins
10-03-2010, 06:59 AM #13Well, I'd say the 306 is a good car,
And con I'm jarrus464 from pug306.net so I know of your car,
Problem is that no one seems interested in helping me achieve my goals with my car though that's why I've branched out to find other help,
(10-03-2010, 06:59 AM)Jarrus Problem is that no one seems interested in helping me achieve my goals
It isn't "not interested", its "unable to help". Peugeot hasn't sold anything in the USA since 1991 so you might as well be speaking French to most of the people here.
Some basics like turbos will translate, but mostly we don't have any specifics to tell you.
ForcedInduction
10-03-2010, 08:14 AM
#14
(10-03-2010, 06:59 AM)Jarrus Problem is that no one seems interested in helping me achieve my goals
It isn't "not interested", its "unable to help". Peugeot hasn't sold anything in the USA since 1991 so you might as well be speaking French to most of the people here.
Some basics like turbos will translate, but mostly we don't have any specifics to tell you.
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