Alternative Boost
Alternative Boost
09-04-2010, 10:27 PM
#1
Anyone tried electric turbos - not for real boost but to rid yourself of lag?
How many brands can you find and what do you think of them?
Has anyone ever tried compressed air? (lets say you run out of NOS... Little compresser kicks in).
BriZZell Dride
09-04-2010, 10:27 PM #1Hi this is a off shoot of a nother post...
Anyone tried electric turbos - not for real boost but to rid yourself of lag?
How many brands can you find and what do you think of them?
Has anyone ever tried compressed air? (lets say you run out of NOS... Little compresser kicks in).
09-05-2010, 02:15 AM
#3
(09-04-2010, 10:27 PM)BriZZell Dride Anyone tried electric turbos - not for real boost but to rid yourself of lag?Its on the same level as "hydrogen generators", works great in myth and scams, but not in the real world.
Quote:How many brands can you find and what do you think of them?
So far, this is the only legitimate electric supercharger I've ever seen that lives up to its description.
![[Image: 0406tur_knight02_z.jpg]](http://image.turbomagazine.com/f/8570777/0406tur_knight02_z.jpg)
http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0406tu...to_02.html
The power needed would have to come from batteries. Using the alternator would kill any benefits of the air through drag on the alternator.
Quote:Has anyone ever tried compressed air? (lets say you run out of NOS... Little compresser kicks in).The compressor would have to have a displacement larger than your engine if you're expecting real-time operation.
Using a storage tank would only offer a few seconds of effectiveness. I can't locate it right now, but I've seen it described something like a 10gallon tank charged to 120psi and regulated to 15psi output could run a Honda at WOT for 5 seconds.
None of them have any practical benefit. A supercharger or VNT turbo will do just as well with a fraction of the complexity and weight.
This post was last modified: 09-05-2010, 02:17 AM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
09-05-2010, 02:15 AM
#3
(09-04-2010, 10:27 PM)BriZZell Dride Anyone tried electric turbos - not for real boost but to rid yourself of lag?Its on the same level as "hydrogen generators", works great in myth and scams, but not in the real world.
Quote:How many brands can you find and what do you think of them?
So far, this is the only legitimate electric supercharger I've ever seen that lives up to its description.
http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0406tu...to_02.html
The power needed would have to come from batteries. Using the alternator would kill any benefits of the air through drag on the alternator.
Quote:Has anyone ever tried compressed air? (lets say you run out of NOS... Little compresser kicks in).The compressor would have to have a displacement larger than your engine if you're expecting real-time operation.
Using a storage tank would only offer a few seconds of effectiveness. I can't locate it right now, but I've seen it described something like a 10gallon tank charged to 120psi and regulated to 15psi output could run a Honda at WOT for 5 seconds.
None of them have any practical benefit. A supercharger or VNT turbo will do just as well with a fraction of the complexity and weight.
09-05-2010, 09:30 PM
#4
tomnik:
Which question was this an answer to? "Calculate the necessary volumes (flows) and you can answer your question yourself."
How do you do this?
Thomas Knight Turbo Electric Supercharger
GOOD GRASHAS THAT THING MASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSIVE This web pix say it all here.
This post was last modified: 09-05-2010, 09:38 PM by BriZZell Dride.
BriZZell Dride
09-05-2010, 09:30 PM #4Very cool info. Any one ever heard of other boost forms?
tomnik:
Which question was this an answer to? "Calculate the necessary volumes (flows) and you can answer your question yourself."
How do you do this?
Thomas Knight Turbo Electric Supercharger
GOOD GRASHAS THAT THING MASSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSIVE This web pix say it all here.
09-05-2010, 11:13 PM
#5
(09-05-2010, 09:30 PM)BriZZell Dride tomnik:He was basically saying that if you look at how much air your engine consumes, how little airflow those little bilge blower eBay scams flow and how much energy it takes to drive a real supercharger, you'll see why electric superchargers (the traditional scam versions) don't work.
Which question was this an answer to?
Here is a classic scam: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ELECTRIC-...0041748355
Quote:The supercharger is operated on a 12-volt source. This means you can connect it to your battery to get the power. It uses 2.2 amps from your alternator when turned on and doesn't affect your car performance or battery drain. The Supercharger is connected to a switch inside the car. Whenever you need more power you simply flip the switch and fly away. It produces 250CFM of forced air into your manifold and it very quiet under the hood when turned on. In fact it has a nice aggressive sound, making it seem like you got something bigger then what you actually have under the hood.Notice they sneak in a back door to get out of being held up to their claims.
The sad thing is I have no doubt multiple people have willingly paid the $422.83 to find out its completely worthless.
Now if you want true "alternative boost", build a motorcycle engine driven 6-71 blower in your trunk.
This post was last modified: 09-05-2010, 11:15 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
09-05-2010, 11:13 PM
#5
(09-05-2010, 09:30 PM)BriZZell Dride tomnik:He was basically saying that if you look at how much air your engine consumes, how little airflow those little bilge blower eBay scams flow and how much energy it takes to drive a real supercharger, you'll see why electric superchargers (the traditional scam versions) don't work.
Which question was this an answer to?
Here is a classic scam: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ELECTRIC-...0041748355
Quote:The supercharger is operated on a 12-volt source. This means you can connect it to your battery to get the power. It uses 2.2 amps from your alternator when turned on and doesn't affect your car performance or battery drain. The Supercharger is connected to a switch inside the car. Whenever you need more power you simply flip the switch and fly away. It produces 250CFM of forced air into your manifold and it very quiet under the hood when turned on. In fact it has a nice aggressive sound, making it seem like you got something bigger then what you actually have under the hood.Notice they sneak in a back door to get out of being held up to their claims.
The sad thing is I have no doubt multiple people have willingly paid the $422.83 to find out its completely worthless.
Now if you want true "alternative boost", build a motorcycle engine driven 6-71 blower in your trunk.
09-07-2010, 07:34 PM
#6
BriZZell Dride
09-07-2010, 07:34 PM #6250CFMs??????? My mower would like this one. So how does some one fig the cfm on a turbo? Also what is the math for say... How much cfm would it take to make 1psi in a 85 300SD?
09-07-2010, 09:12 PM
#7
It says 1psi at 2000rpm is 6 lbs/min or 96cfm. Seems wrong, I recall idle being 9 lbs/min somewhere which would be 120cfm just for idle. The formula is lbs/minute * cubic feet/lb (density of air at temperature X) = cfm
http://www.cottrell.100megs6.com/CJB/velocity/cfm.html
It says 1psi at 2000rpm is 6 lbs/min or 96cfm. Seems wrong, I recall idle being 9 lbs/min somewhere which would be 120cfm just for idle. The formula is lbs/minute * cubic feet/lb (density of air at temperature X) = cfm
09-08-2010, 10:05 AM
#8
(09-07-2010, 07:34 PM)BriZZell Dride How much cfm would it take to make 1psi in a 85 300SD?
Depends on engine RPM and boost from the turbo.
At 3000rpm with no boost of any kind, an OM617 flows 135cfm.
On the highway with 5psi turbo boost thats up to 162cfm.
At 4500rpm and 12psi boost, 295cfm.
Flow from a non positive displacement pump is worthless if it can't make pressure.
The stock T3 turbo spins 121,000rpm to make 12psi of boost at 4500 engine rpm.
That little fan spins less than 10,000rpm. You can do the math.
ForcedInduction
09-08-2010, 10:05 AM
#8
(09-07-2010, 07:34 PM)BriZZell Dride How much cfm would it take to make 1psi in a 85 300SD?
Depends on engine RPM and boost from the turbo.
At 3000rpm with no boost of any kind, an OM617 flows 135cfm.
On the highway with 5psi turbo boost thats up to 162cfm.
At 4500rpm and 12psi boost, 295cfm.
Flow from a non positive displacement pump is worthless if it can't make pressure.
The stock T3 turbo spins 121,000rpm to make 12psi of boost at 4500 engine rpm.
That little fan spins less than 10,000rpm. You can do the math.
09-08-2010, 08:13 PM
#9
If I'm ONLY looking for the little boost missing while I'm waiting for the real turbo... hemmmmm what do I need?
The topic of E/turbos are not going away tho.
Cant find it now but I saw a video of a dodge sports car with one (30"psi" OF VACUUM) No clue where he got such a gauge.
-------------------
B&B PERFORMANCE LINE ELECTRIC SUPERCHARGER SYSTEM * HOT * INTRODUCTORY PRICE OFFER
Equipped with Velocity Technology which feeds the engine 3 x more air speed than the conventional air intake system. More air is more power for your vehicle.
* Add more HORSEPOWER up to 17 HP guaranteed.
* Powerful fan: 26000 rpm and 1.3 psi boost pressure.
* Easy bolt-on self installation with complete instructions included.
* Attach to factory air-box unit / aftermarket cone air filter with 2.5" - 3.5" intake port diameter.
B&B Electric Supercharger System With Air Filter - $259 (Without Air Filter - $239)
-------------------
This ones cute: http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/foru...10335.html
-------------------
Also found
Geo electric supercharger-Turbo kit for 6 cyl motors
Electric Supercharger Price: $99.99
GAINS UP TO 45 HORSEPOWER
A stock turbo from an Audi 1.8T produces 400CFM. Adding the electric supercharger will produce more then half of the power than a stock Audi 1.8T turbo would. There is need to do any modifications to your engine at all. 250CFM of forced air can also be compared to a 15-25 shot of Nitrous.
* Produces 25 - 45 horsepower increase.
* Generates 250CFM of forced air.
Is Nos used in diesel the same way as its used in gas engines (FOT only)?
Does W/meth provide boost (by cooling)?
I hear some have tried helping the turbo with fuel like in a jet. Any thoughts?
This post was last modified: 09-08-2010, 08:25 PM by BriZZell Dride.
BriZZell Dride
09-08-2010, 08:13 PM #9NOW THAT'S HELP!!! Those are numbers I know a bit about... I'm not really ready to use it maybe but these numbers I can relate to.
If I'm ONLY looking for the little boost missing while I'm waiting for the real turbo... hemmmmm what do I need?
The topic of E/turbos are not going away tho.
Cant find it now but I saw a video of a dodge sports car with one (30"psi" OF VACUUM) No clue where he got such a gauge.
-------------------
B&B PERFORMANCE LINE ELECTRIC SUPERCHARGER SYSTEM * HOT * INTRODUCTORY PRICE OFFER
Equipped with Velocity Technology which feeds the engine 3 x more air speed than the conventional air intake system. More air is more power for your vehicle.
* Add more HORSEPOWER up to 17 HP guaranteed.
* Powerful fan: 26000 rpm and 1.3 psi boost pressure.
* Easy bolt-on self installation with complete instructions included.
* Attach to factory air-box unit / aftermarket cone air filter with 2.5" - 3.5" intake port diameter.
B&B Electric Supercharger System With Air Filter - $259 (Without Air Filter - $239)
-------------------
This ones cute: http://www.corvetteactioncenter.com/foru...10335.html
-------------------
Also found
Geo electric supercharger-Turbo kit for 6 cyl motors
Electric Supercharger Price: $99.99
GAINS UP TO 45 HORSEPOWER
A stock turbo from an Audi 1.8T produces 400CFM. Adding the electric supercharger will produce more then half of the power than a stock Audi 1.8T turbo would. There is need to do any modifications to your engine at all. 250CFM of forced air can also be compared to a 15-25 shot of Nitrous.
* Produces 25 - 45 horsepower increase.
* Generates 250CFM of forced air.
Is Nos used in diesel the same way as its used in gas engines (FOT only)?
Does W/meth provide boost (by cooling)?
I hear some have tried helping the turbo with fuel like in a jet. Any thoughts?
09-09-2010, 06:27 AM
#10
(09-08-2010, 08:13 PM)BriZZell Dride B&B PERFORMANCE LINE ELECTRIC SUPERCHARGER SYSTEM * HOT * INTRODUCTORY PRICE OFFERThats the key to their scam. Air velocity ≠ pressure.
Equipped with Velocity Technology which feeds the engine 3 x more air speed than the conventional air intake system.
Quote:* Add more HORSEPOWER up to 17 HP guaranteed.Another backdoor.
Quote:* Powerful fan: 26000 rpm and 1.3 psi boost pressure.Note they don't say at what engine RPM or throttle position, or if thats even with the engine running.
Quote:B&B Electric Supercharger System With Air Filter - $259 (Without Air Filter - $239)
![[Image: B&B_Performance_Line_Electric_Supercharger2.jpg]](http://www.globalautoshop.com/images/performance/electric_superchager/B&B_Performance_Line_Electric_Supercharger2.jpg)
Now where have I seen something like that before?
http://www.boatersplus.com/attwood-turbo...lower.html
![[Image: thumbnail_6001862.jpg]](http://www.boatersplus.com/images/product/thumbnail_6001862.jpg)
Quote:Is Nos used in diesel the same way as its used in gas engines (FOT only)?Yes, but the additional fuel is not as important for A:F ratio.
Quote:Does W/meth provide boost (by cooling)?No. It increases airflow by making the air more dense, but it also occupies physical volume itself.
Quote:I hear some have tried helping the turbo with fuel like in a jet. Any thoughts?Great way to melt the turbo.
ForcedInduction
09-09-2010, 06:27 AM
#10
(09-08-2010, 08:13 PM)BriZZell Dride B&B PERFORMANCE LINE ELECTRIC SUPERCHARGER SYSTEM * HOT * INTRODUCTORY PRICE OFFERThats the key to their scam. Air velocity ≠ pressure.
Equipped with Velocity Technology which feeds the engine 3 x more air speed than the conventional air intake system.
Quote:* Add more HORSEPOWER up to 17 HP guaranteed.Another backdoor.
Quote:* Powerful fan: 26000 rpm and 1.3 psi boost pressure.Note they don't say at what engine RPM or throttle position, or if thats even with the engine running.
Quote:B&B Electric Supercharger System With Air Filter - $259 (Without Air Filter - $239)
Now where have I seen something like that before?
http://www.boatersplus.com/attwood-turbo...lower.html
Quote:Is Nos used in diesel the same way as its used in gas engines (FOT only)?Yes, but the additional fuel is not as important for A:F ratio.
Quote:Does W/meth provide boost (by cooling)?No. It increases airflow by making the air more dense, but it also occupies physical volume itself.
Quote:I hear some have tried helping the turbo with fuel like in a jet. Any thoughts?Great way to melt the turbo.
09-09-2010, 12:25 PM
#11
(09-09-2010, 06:27 AM)ForcedInductionIf the thing can make 1.3 psi of boost on a stopped engine. It will probably make 0.75 psi of boost at idle. Even this little bit will help the turbo spool quite a bit.Quote:* Powerful fan: 26000 rpm and 1.3 psi boost pressure.Note they don't say at what engine RPM or throttle position, or if thats even with the engine running.
As a side note I'm looking at using waste heat from my exhaust after the turbo to generate steam. I then plan on routing that steam into the exhaust manifold to help generate more boost. I'll post more details on my plan later.
(09-09-2010, 06:27 AM)ForcedInductionIf the thing can make 1.3 psi of boost on a stopped engine. It will probably make 0.75 psi of boost at idle. Even this little bit will help the turbo spool quite a bit.Quote:* Powerful fan: 26000 rpm and 1.3 psi boost pressure.Note they don't say at what engine RPM or throttle position, or if thats even with the engine running.
As a side note I'm looking at using waste heat from my exhaust after the turbo to generate steam. I then plan on routing that steam into the exhaust manifold to help generate more boost. I'll post more details on my plan later.
09-09-2010, 07:00 PM
#13
First I will install a pump
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/p...081_357081
fed by some storage container (maybe the windshield washer fluid tank). from there the pump will pump the water into a small feed tank. The feed tank will then connect to copper or brass tubing wrapped around my down tube from the bottom bend up about 10 inches. From there I will fork the path between back to the feed tank and the tubing all the way up to the outlet of the turbo. This fork should catch any water pushed up by the steam and send it back to the feed tank. All tubing after the fork will serve to super heat the steam thus drying it and adding more energy to it. The tubing will then go from the outlet of the turbo and feed into the exhaust manifold. Once it mixes with the exhaust gasses it will be heated even more ensuring that it is dry steam.
I intend to use this in short pulses to allow the tubing to heat above boiling point thus allowing the water to flash to steam when it hits it.
The beauty of this is it makes use of all the heat dumped after the turbo where it is of little or no use making power.
EDIT: Note mixing a fuel like alcohol with the water will allow it to burn with the excess O2 in the exhaust giving even more of a boost.
This post was last modified: 09-09-2010, 07:01 PM by ConnClark.
As promised more details on my plan.
First I will install a pump
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/p...081_357081
fed by some storage container (maybe the windshield washer fluid tank). from there the pump will pump the water into a small feed tank. The feed tank will then connect to copper or brass tubing wrapped around my down tube from the bottom bend up about 10 inches. From there I will fork the path between back to the feed tank and the tubing all the way up to the outlet of the turbo. This fork should catch any water pushed up by the steam and send it back to the feed tank. All tubing after the fork will serve to super heat the steam thus drying it and adding more energy to it. The tubing will then go from the outlet of the turbo and feed into the exhaust manifold. Once it mixes with the exhaust gasses it will be heated even more ensuring that it is dry steam.
I intend to use this in short pulses to allow the tubing to heat above boiling point thus allowing the water to flash to steam when it hits it.
The beauty of this is it makes use of all the heat dumped after the turbo where it is of little or no use making power.
EDIT: Note mixing a fuel like alcohol with the water will allow it to burn with the excess O2 in the exhaust giving even more of a boost.
09-09-2010, 07:09 PM
#14
(09-09-2010, 12:25 PM)ConnClark If the thing can make 1.3 psi of boost on a stopped engine. It will probably make 0.75 psi of boost at idle. Even this little bit will help the turbo spool quite a bit.
Not really.
Atmospheric pressure in Denver (5,280') is 12.10psi. At Breckenridge (9,600') the pressure is 10.27psi. The 1.83psi difference make no difference in performance to me thanks to the VNT.
0.75psi boost at idle isn't worth the high flow restriction it will produce above idle.
I'm sorry, but that regeneration plan has "perpetual energy loop" written all over it.
ForcedInduction
09-09-2010, 07:09 PM
#14
(09-09-2010, 12:25 PM)ConnClark If the thing can make 1.3 psi of boost on a stopped engine. It will probably make 0.75 psi of boost at idle. Even this little bit will help the turbo spool quite a bit.
Not really.
Atmospheric pressure in Denver (5,280') is 12.10psi. At Breckenridge (9,600') the pressure is 10.27psi. The 1.83psi difference make no difference in performance to me thanks to the VNT.
0.75psi boost at idle isn't worth the high flow restriction it will produce above idle.
I'm sorry, but that regeneration plan has "perpetual energy loop" written all over it.
09-10-2010, 12:28 PM
#15
(09-09-2010, 07:09 PM)ForcedInductionApples to Oranges, that doesn't take into account that the 0.75psi increase only appears on the turbo inlet.(09-09-2010, 12:25 PM)ConnClark If the thing can make 1.3 psi of boost on a stopped engine. It will probably make 0.75 psi of boost at idle. Even this little bit will help the turbo spool quite a bit.
Not really.
Atmospheric pressure in Denver (5,280') is 12.10psi. At Breckenridge (9,600') the pressure is 10.27psi. The 1.83psi difference make no difference in performance to me thanks to the VNT.
Quote:0.75psi boost at idle isn't worth the high flow restriction it will produce above idle.
it might be but a bypass could be rigged to compensate.
Quote:I'm sorry, but that regeneration plan has "perpetual energy loop" written all over it.
No its called a combined cycle. This set up is very similar to the gas turbine combined steam cycle. The major difference being that this shares the same turbine and is a single pass system.
Its not entirely perfect either. Operation of the second cycle does have the side effect of reduce exhaust temps. Metering the water in for optimum continuous usage would require computer controls. Excessive water introduced to make steam might make wet steam and erode the turbine. The maximum limit for continuous operation is you still have to have enough heat in the exhaust system to prevent condensation in the rest of the exhaust.
That is why I have chosen to go with intermittent use. Intermittent use allows for bigger boosts when you need it. It allows for less water to be carried. When applied during hard acceleration there will be plenty of heat generated by the larger amount of fuel being burned to mitigate any condensation in the exhaust. It also allows for the system to be shut off when your up near where the waste gate kicks in thus conserving water.
(09-09-2010, 07:09 PM)ForcedInductionApples to Oranges, that doesn't take into account that the 0.75psi increase only appears on the turbo inlet.(09-09-2010, 12:25 PM)ConnClark If the thing can make 1.3 psi of boost on a stopped engine. It will probably make 0.75 psi of boost at idle. Even this little bit will help the turbo spool quite a bit.
Not really.
Atmospheric pressure in Denver (5,280') is 12.10psi. At Breckenridge (9,600') the pressure is 10.27psi. The 1.83psi difference make no difference in performance to me thanks to the VNT.
Quote:0.75psi boost at idle isn't worth the high flow restriction it will produce above idle.
it might be but a bypass could be rigged to compensate.
Quote:I'm sorry, but that regeneration plan has "perpetual energy loop" written all over it.
No its called a combined cycle. This set up is very similar to the gas turbine combined steam cycle. The major difference being that this shares the same turbine and is a single pass system.
Its not entirely perfect either. Operation of the second cycle does have the side effect of reduce exhaust temps. Metering the water in for optimum continuous usage would require computer controls. Excessive water introduced to make steam might make wet steam and erode the turbine. The maximum limit for continuous operation is you still have to have enough heat in the exhaust system to prevent condensation in the rest of the exhaust.
That is why I have chosen to go with intermittent use. Intermittent use allows for bigger boosts when you need it. It allows for less water to be carried. When applied during hard acceleration there will be plenty of heat generated by the larger amount of fuel being burned to mitigate any condensation in the exhaust. It also allows for the system to be shut off when your up near where the waste gate kicks in thus conserving water.
09-10-2010, 12:36 PM
#16
(09-10-2010, 12:28 PM)ConnClark it might be but a bypass could be rigged to compensate.Now you're selling cows for beans.
ForcedInduction
09-10-2010, 12:36 PM
#16
(09-10-2010, 12:28 PM)ConnClark it might be but a bypass could be rigged to compensate.Now you're selling cows for beans.
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