Anyone run nitrous?
Anyone run nitrous?
01-22-2010, 07:38 AM
#2
(01-22-2010, 03:43 AM)krazy4 I know that in the truck diesel world it works well.
They don't have prechambers that can explode.
There is also no point to using it with a turbo except to get the turbo spooled. With a VNT, even that is eliminated.
ForcedInduction
01-22-2010, 07:38 AM
#2
(01-22-2010, 03:43 AM)krazy4 I know that in the truck diesel world it works well.
They don't have prechambers that can explode.
There is also no point to using it with a turbo except to get the turbo spooled. With a VNT, even that is eliminated.
01-22-2010, 10:15 AM
#3
Lincolnlock
01-22-2010, 10:15 AM #3I'll bet it would work awesome. My propane setup works really well. There is no reason an IDI engine couldn't run it.
01-22-2010, 05:57 PM
#4
(01-22-2010, 07:38 AM)ForcedInduction They don't have prechambers that can explode.Are you sure about that? And why not use with turbo?
There is also no point to using it with a turbo except to get the turbo spooled. With a VNT, even that is eliminated.
01-22-2010, 09:21 PM
#5
(01-22-2010, 07:38 AM)ForcedInduction(01-22-2010, 03:43 AM)krazy4 I know that in the truck diesel world it works well.
They don't have prechambers that can explode.
There is also no point to using it with a turbo except to get the turbo spooled. With a VNT, even that is eliminated.
Why would there be no point in running nitrous? lol
Maybe I don't want to worry about upgrading the manifold and turbo and just run a big shot. I get a hook up on refills so might as well.
(01-22-2010, 07:38 AM)ForcedInduction(01-22-2010, 03:43 AM)krazy4 I know that in the truck diesel world it works well.
They don't have prechambers that can explode.
There is also no point to using it with a turbo except to get the turbo spooled. With a VNT, even that is eliminated.
Why would there be no point in running nitrous? lol
Maybe I don't want to worry about upgrading the manifold and turbo and just run a big shot. I get a hook up on refills so might as well.
01-23-2010, 10:29 AM
#6
(01-22-2010, 05:57 PM)jeemu Are you sure about that? And why not use with turbo?A turbo does the same thing as nitrous without ever needing a refill.
(01-22-2010, 09:21 PM)krazy4 Why would there be no point in running nitrous?You already have a turbo that can support everything your injection pump can flow. There are gobs of 2-stage boost controllers for sale and making one from junkyard parts is easy.
This post was last modified: 01-23-2010, 10:32 AM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
01-23-2010, 10:29 AM
#6
(01-22-2010, 05:57 PM)jeemu Are you sure about that? And why not use with turbo?A turbo does the same thing as nitrous without ever needing a refill.
(01-22-2010, 09:21 PM)krazy4 Why would there be no point in running nitrous?You already have a turbo that can support everything your injection pump can flow. There are gobs of 2-stage boost controllers for sale and making one from junkyard parts is easy.
01-23-2010, 04:30 PM
#7
(01-23-2010, 10:29 AM)ForcedInductionhttp://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/gener...index.html(01-22-2010, 05:57 PM)jeemu Are you sure about that? And why not use with turbo?A turbo does the same thing as nitrous without ever needing a refill.
(01-22-2010, 09:21 PM)krazy4 Why would there be no point in running nitrous?You already have a turbo that can support everything your injection pump can flow. There are gobs of 2-stage boost controllers for sale and making one from junkyard parts is easy.
(01-23-2010, 10:29 AM)ForcedInductionhttp://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/gener...index.html(01-22-2010, 05:57 PM)jeemu Are you sure about that? And why not use with turbo?A turbo does the same thing as nitrous without ever needing a refill.
(01-22-2010, 09:21 PM)krazy4 Why would there be no point in running nitrous?You already have a turbo that can support everything your injection pump can flow. There are gobs of 2-stage boost controllers for sale and making one from junkyard parts is easy.
01-23-2010, 06:24 PM
#9
(01-23-2010, 04:30 PM)jeemu http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/gener...index.html
DI≠IDI, same as propane.
This post was last modified: 01-23-2010, 06:24 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
01-23-2010, 06:24 PM
#9
(01-23-2010, 04:30 PM)jeemu http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/gener...index.html
DI≠IDI, same as propane.
01-23-2010, 07:15 PM
#10
(01-23-2010, 04:30 PM)jeemu http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/gener...index.html
That article is written by someone with no idea how diesel engines work or how they are tuned.
The whole point of NOs is to provide more oxygen to the burn. Diesels have to run with a lot of excess air and oxygen or they melt. Adding NOs would be a great way to put EGT's well beyond 1000C. They're using it to provide more oxygen to burn more fuel without providing more cooling air.
No way in hell would I do that to one of my diesels.
This post was last modified: 01-23-2010, 07:17 PM by Kiwibacon.
(01-23-2010, 04:30 PM)jeemu http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/gener...index.html
That article is written by someone with no idea how diesel engines work or how they are tuned.
The whole point of NOs is to provide more oxygen to the burn. Diesels have to run with a lot of excess air and oxygen or they melt. Adding NOs would be a great way to put EGT's well beyond 1000C. They're using it to provide more oxygen to burn more fuel without providing more cooling air.
No way in hell would I do that to one of my diesels.
01-23-2010, 09:29 PM
#11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCNZfUO0cLY
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
01-23-2010, 09:29 PM #11http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9Z5Hd0yqvg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCNZfUO0cLY
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
01-24-2010, 09:43 AM
#13
(01-23-2010, 07:15 PM)Kiwibacon They're using it to provide more oxygen to burn more fuel without providing more cooling air.Nitrous gets extremely cold as it expands out of the nozzle. So, it would actually be better than water injection in a sense if it weren't more expensive to refill and blow up your prechambers.
Quote:When nitrous oxide is added to the combustion process with the correct amount of fuel, it dramatically increases the horsepower output.Key line from that article. Like an intercooler, nitrous alone won't add any more power unless you increase the fuel to match.
(01-23-2010, 10:32 PM)krazy4 Do you have any experience with nitrous on an IDI engine?Why the hell would I want to blow up my engine?
Do you have any experience running gasoline in your engine? How do you know its bad if you haven't tried it?
This post was last modified: 01-24-2010, 09:43 AM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
01-24-2010, 09:43 AM
#13
(01-23-2010, 07:15 PM)Kiwibacon They're using it to provide more oxygen to burn more fuel without providing more cooling air.Nitrous gets extremely cold as it expands out of the nozzle. So, it would actually be better than water injection in a sense if it weren't more expensive to refill and blow up your prechambers.
Quote:When nitrous oxide is added to the combustion process with the correct amount of fuel, it dramatically increases the horsepower output.Key line from that article. Like an intercooler, nitrous alone won't add any more power unless you increase the fuel to match.
(01-23-2010, 10:32 PM)krazy4 Do you have any experience with nitrous on an IDI engine?Why the hell would I want to blow up my engine?
Do you have any experience running gasoline in your engine? How do you know its bad if you haven't tried it?
01-24-2010, 03:36 PM
#14
(01-24-2010, 09:43 AM)ForcedInduction(01-23-2010, 07:15 PM)Kiwibacon They're using it to provide more oxygen to burn more fuel without providing more cooling air.Nitrous gets extremely cold as it expands out of the nozzle. So, it would actually be better than water injection in a sense if it weren't more expensive to refill and blow up your prechambers.
Given that water injection does bugger all, that would be perfectly true.
(01-24-2010, 09:43 AM)ForcedInduction(01-23-2010, 07:15 PM)Kiwibacon They're using it to provide more oxygen to burn more fuel without providing more cooling air.Nitrous gets extremely cold as it expands out of the nozzle. So, it would actually be better than water injection in a sense if it weren't more expensive to refill and blow up your prechambers.
Given that water injection does bugger all, that would be perfectly true.
01-25-2010, 12:40 AM
#15
(01-24-2010, 09:43 AM)ForcedInduction(01-23-2010, 10:32 PM)krazy4 Do you have any experience with nitrous on an IDI engine?Why the hell would I want to blow up my engine?
Do you have any experience running gasoline in your engine? How do you know its bad if you haven't tried it?
How do you know it blows IDI engines then?
(01-24-2010, 09:43 AM)ForcedInduction(01-23-2010, 10:32 PM)krazy4 Do you have any experience with nitrous on an IDI engine?Why the hell would I want to blow up my engine?
Do you have any experience running gasoline in your engine? How do you know its bad if you haven't tried it?
How do you know it blows IDI engines then?
01-25-2010, 01:47 AM
#16
(01-24-2010, 03:36 PM)Kiwibacon Given that water injection does bugger all
Except cool the intake air, provide a few hp boost and, most importantly, keep the cylinders clean. All it takes is about $1.75/gallon.
(01-25-2010, 12:40 AM)krazy4 How do you know it blows IDI engines then?The prechamber has orifices to limit the air volume into it. Nitrous is much more dense than air until it breaks down from the heat of compression, this means the prechamber will have to endure far higher internal pressures during combustion.
And this:
(01-23-2010, 09:29 PM)willbhere4u http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9Z5Hd0yqvg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCNZfUO0cLY
ForcedInduction
01-25-2010, 01:47 AM
#16
(01-24-2010, 03:36 PM)Kiwibacon Given that water injection does bugger all
Except cool the intake air, provide a few hp boost and, most importantly, keep the cylinders clean. All it takes is about $1.75/gallon.
(01-25-2010, 12:40 AM)krazy4 How do you know it blows IDI engines then?The prechamber has orifices to limit the air volume into it. Nitrous is much more dense than air until it breaks down from the heat of compression, this means the prechamber will have to endure far higher internal pressures during combustion.
And this:
(01-23-2010, 09:29 PM)willbhere4u http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9Z5Hd0yqvg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCNZfUO0cLY
01-25-2010, 02:38 AM
#17
(01-25-2010, 01:47 AM)ForcedInduction(01-24-2010, 03:36 PM)Kiwibacon Given that water injection does bugger all
Except cool the intake air, provide a few hp boost and, most importantly, keep the cylinders clean. All it takes is about $1.75/gallon.
Cool the intake air to the minimum of the wet bulb temp (max cooling is a few degrees, nothing at all if the humidity is up).
At 20C with 50% humidity the coldest you can get the intake is 14C. At 70% humidity you can't go lower than 16C.
If you started with 20C and 0% humidity, then 6C is as low as you can go.
That's without the downsides like erosion of compressor wheels.
HP boost on water alone, I have yet to see anything to support that. Water/meth can, but that's due to methanol being a fuel.
(01-25-2010, 01:47 AM)ForcedInduction(01-24-2010, 03:36 PM)Kiwibacon Given that water injection does bugger all
Except cool the intake air, provide a few hp boost and, most importantly, keep the cylinders clean. All it takes is about $1.75/gallon.
Cool the intake air to the minimum of the wet bulb temp (max cooling is a few degrees, nothing at all if the humidity is up).
At 20C with 50% humidity the coldest you can get the intake is 14C. At 70% humidity you can't go lower than 16C.
If you started with 20C and 0% humidity, then 6C is as low as you can go.
That's without the downsides like erosion of compressor wheels.
HP boost on water alone, I have yet to see anything to support that. Water/meth can, but that's due to methanol being a fuel.
01-25-2010, 06:20 AM
#18
(01-25-2010, 02:38 AM)Kiwibacon Cool the intake air to the minimum of the wet bulb temp (max cooling is a few degrees, nothing at all if the humidity is up).Atomization plays a huge role in its effectiveness. Use a washer pump and you'll get jack shit for results, use a 200psi pump with a very fine atomizer and you'll get the best possible.
Quote:At 20C with 50% humidity the coldest you can get the intake is 14C. At 70% humidity you can't go lower than 16C.Both of which are much better than nothing!
Quote:That's without the downsides like erosion of compressor wheels.Nobody with any level of seriousness would consider pre-turbo injection.
Quote:HP boost on water alone, I have yet to see anything to support that.Exact same as an intercooler, nitrous or more boost. You must inject more fuel to actually use the added density of air. As has been discussed many times over.
ForcedInduction
01-25-2010, 06:20 AM
#18
(01-25-2010, 02:38 AM)Kiwibacon Cool the intake air to the minimum of the wet bulb temp (max cooling is a few degrees, nothing at all if the humidity is up).Atomization plays a huge role in its effectiveness. Use a washer pump and you'll get jack shit for results, use a 200psi pump with a very fine atomizer and you'll get the best possible.
Quote:At 20C with 50% humidity the coldest you can get the intake is 14C. At 70% humidity you can't go lower than 16C.Both of which are much better than nothing!
Quote:That's without the downsides like erosion of compressor wheels.Nobody with any level of seriousness would consider pre-turbo injection.
Quote:HP boost on water alone, I have yet to see anything to support that.Exact same as an intercooler, nitrous or more boost. You must inject more fuel to actually use the added density of air. As has been discussed many times over.
01-28-2010, 05:27 PM
#19
(01-25-2010, 01:47 AM)forcedinduction The prechamber has orifices to limit the air volume into it. Nitrous is much more dense than air until it breaks down from the heat of compression, this means the prechamber will have to endure far higher internal pressures during combustion.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. No doubt there will be a lot of thermal shock + higher cylinder pressures...but will it really cause the prechambers to shatter?
Dang IDI's.
I've driven "streetable" Cummins ISB's with WAY too much fuel and enough turbo for a freight train that would not spool no matter what you did unless hit with at least a 120hp shot. Then it's like turbo spool in a bottle, on speed... UNREAL how well it works on a diesel to clean up the smoke too.
Like ole Gale Banks' smokeless racer project - he had no fewer than 3 solenoids plumbed up to various nozzles with a gigantic at the head end. No wonder she burned clean, Gale. Sheesh.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
01-28-2010, 05:27 PM #19(01-25-2010, 01:47 AM)forcedinduction The prechamber has orifices to limit the air volume into it. Nitrous is much more dense than air until it breaks down from the heat of compression, this means the prechamber will have to endure far higher internal pressures during combustion.
I'm not sure what you're getting at here. No doubt there will be a lot of thermal shock + higher cylinder pressures...but will it really cause the prechambers to shatter?
Dang IDI's.
I've driven "streetable" Cummins ISB's with WAY too much fuel and enough turbo for a freight train that would not spool no matter what you did unless hit with at least a 120hp shot. Then it's like turbo spool in a bottle, on speed... UNREAL how well it works on a diesel to clean up the smoke too.
Like ole Gale Banks' smokeless racer project - he had no fewer than 3 solenoids plumbed up to various nozzles with a gigantic at the head end. No wonder she burned clean, Gale. Sheesh.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
01-28-2010, 06:24 PM
#20
(01-28-2010, 05:27 PM)HoleshotHolset No doubt there will be a lot of thermal shock + higher cylinder pressures...but will it really cause the prechambers to shatter?I've seen them explode in somebody's engine from filling the tank with g@soline. Blew out the bottom of the prechambers at the orifice holes and the metal destroyed the pistons. Probably would have been a really interesting sound to capture.
Quote:Like ole Gale Banks' smokeless racer project - he had no fewer than 3 solenoids plumbed up to various nozzles with a gigantic at the head end. No wonder she burned clean, Gale. Sheesh.Thats how you market intake and exhaust products that don't do anything.
This post was last modified: 01-28-2010, 06:26 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
01-28-2010, 06:24 PM
#20
(01-28-2010, 05:27 PM)HoleshotHolset No doubt there will be a lot of thermal shock + higher cylinder pressures...but will it really cause the prechambers to shatter?I've seen them explode in somebody's engine from filling the tank with g@soline. Blew out the bottom of the prechambers at the orifice holes and the metal destroyed the pistons. Probably would have been a really interesting sound to capture.
Quote:Like ole Gale Banks' smokeless racer project - he had no fewer than 3 solenoids plumbed up to various nozzles with a gigantic at the head end. No wonder she burned clean, Gale. Sheesh.Thats how you market intake and exhaust products that don't do anything.
01-28-2010, 08:40 PM
#21
(01-25-2010, 06:20 AM)forcedinduction Atomization plays a huge role in its effectiveness. Use a washer pump and you'll get jack shit for results, use a 200psi pump with a very fine atomizer and you'll get the best possible.
Quote:At 20C with 50% humidity the coldest you can get the intake is 14C. At 70% humidity you can't go lower than 16C.Both of which are much better than nothing!
For a maximum of 6C in charge temp it's not worth the hassle. If you want higher air density, run more boost or a better intercooler.
Pre-turbo injection is everywhere on the net. Serious or not that's what these turkeys are trying.
(01-25-2010, 06:20 AM)forcedinduction Exact same as an intercooler, nitrous or more boost. You must inject more fuel to actually use the added density of air. As has been discussed many times over.
Yet unlike extra boost or an intercooler, the change in density is so minor it's not worth doing. Hence you haven't got enough extra oxygen to burn extra fuel.
Sure water injection lowers EGT's, but that takes it's toll on turbo efficiency. The more heat you feed a turbo, the lower it's drive-pressure. Water injection is headed the wrong way.
(01-25-2010, 06:20 AM)forcedinduction Atomization plays a huge role in its effectiveness. Use a washer pump and you'll get jack shit for results, use a 200psi pump with a very fine atomizer and you'll get the best possible.
Quote:At 20C with 50% humidity the coldest you can get the intake is 14C. At 70% humidity you can't go lower than 16C.Both of which are much better than nothing!
For a maximum of 6C in charge temp it's not worth the hassle. If you want higher air density, run more boost or a better intercooler.
Pre-turbo injection is everywhere on the net. Serious or not that's what these turkeys are trying.
(01-25-2010, 06:20 AM)forcedinduction Exact same as an intercooler, nitrous or more boost. You must inject more fuel to actually use the added density of air. As has been discussed many times over.
Yet unlike extra boost or an intercooler, the change in density is so minor it's not worth doing. Hence you haven't got enough extra oxygen to burn extra fuel.
Sure water injection lowers EGT's, but that takes it's toll on turbo efficiency. The more heat you feed a turbo, the lower it's drive-pressure. Water injection is headed the wrong way.
01-29-2010, 09:42 AM
#22
(01-28-2010, 08:40 PM)Kiwibacon Pre-turbo injection is everywhere on the net. Serious or not that's what these turkeys are trying.Like has been said many times, people don't have to be intelligent to screw with their car or use the internet.
ForcedInduction
01-29-2010, 09:42 AM
#22
(01-28-2010, 08:40 PM)Kiwibacon Pre-turbo injection is everywhere on the net. Serious or not that's what these turkeys are trying.Like has been said many times, people don't have to be intelligent to screw with their car or use the internet.
02-03-2010, 03:28 AM
#23
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php...ost2858824
WhitbreadDankcorey22 Whitbread- At what boost pressure did that thing explode like that?Nitrous backfire.
Attached Files
Image(s)ForcedInduction
02-03-2010, 03:28 AM
#23
Still think nitrous is safe and harmless?
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php...ost2858824
WhitbreadDankcorey22 Whitbread- At what boost pressure did that thing explode like that?Nitrous backfire.
Attached Files
Image(s)
02-10-2010, 02:03 PM
#24
Quote:I've seen them explode in somebody's engine from filling the tank with g@soline. Blew out the bottom of the prechambers at the orifice holes and the metal destroyed the pistons. Probably would have been a really interesting sound to capture.
That's a bummer - but (stating the obvious) running a diesel on gas isn't the same as injecting nitrous in a diesel.
Quote:Thats how you market intake and exhaust products that don't do anything.
After he had some success with that rig, he came out and blasted all the other mfg's and racers for making products that cause diesel engines to belch smoke. I can see his point...but we could have a smoke free, HP diesel too with his budget and resources.
Cheers,
Matt
(02-03-2010, 03:28 AM)ForcedInduction Still think nitrous is safe and harmless?
No - we've all seen the pics of grenaded intakes on gassers...and that poor TDI got added to that list. I don't think anyone ever stated that it was 100% safe or harmless...stepping out of line and modifying your rig is inherently dangerous.
Cheers,
Matt
This post was last modified: 02-10-2010, 02:07 PM by HoleshotHolset.
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
02-10-2010, 02:03 PM #24Quote:I've seen them explode in somebody's engine from filling the tank with g@soline. Blew out the bottom of the prechambers at the orifice holes and the metal destroyed the pistons. Probably would have been a really interesting sound to capture.
That's a bummer - but (stating the obvious) running a diesel on gas isn't the same as injecting nitrous in a diesel.
Quote:Thats how you market intake and exhaust products that don't do anything.
After he had some success with that rig, he came out and blasted all the other mfg's and racers for making products that cause diesel engines to belch smoke. I can see his point...but we could have a smoke free, HP diesel too with his budget and resources.
Cheers,
Matt
(02-03-2010, 03:28 AM)ForcedInduction Still think nitrous is safe and harmless?
No - we've all seen the pics of grenaded intakes on gassers...and that poor TDI got added to that list. I don't think anyone ever stated that it was 100% safe or harmless...stepping out of line and modifying your rig is inherently dangerous.
Cheers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
02-10-2010, 08:13 PM
#26
(02-10-2010, 02:03 PM)HoleshotHolset running a diesel on gas isn't the same as injecting nitrous in a diesel.
Same effect. You're cramming a far more dense cocktail into the PC that expands faster than the orifices can let it out.
ForcedInduction
02-10-2010, 08:13 PM
#26
(02-10-2010, 02:03 PM)HoleshotHolset running a diesel on gas isn't the same as injecting nitrous in a diesel.
Same effect. You're cramming a far more dense cocktail into the PC that expands faster than the orifices can let it out.
02-11-2010, 12:16 AM
#27
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
willbhere4u
02-11-2010, 12:16 AM #27all things in moderation!
1987 300SDL 6spd manual om606.962 swap project
1985 300td euro 5spd wagon running
02-20-2010, 04:06 PM
#28
(02-10-2010, 08:13 PM)ForcedInduction Same effect. You're cramming a far more dense cocktail into the PC that expands faster than the orifices can let it out.
Indeed, but I'd have to imagine that the pressures involved are night/day different.
I've heard diesels running on gas and it isn't pretty - N2O sounds far less violent.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
HoleshotHolset
02-20-2010, 04:06 PM #28(02-10-2010, 08:13 PM)ForcedInduction Same effect. You're cramming a far more dense cocktail into the PC that expands faster than the orifices can let it out.
Indeed, but I'd have to imagine that the pressures involved are night/day different.
I've heard diesels running on gas and it isn't pretty - N2O sounds far less violent.
Beers,
Matt
'07 W211 OM642
'95 W124.131/722.435, 211k - daily driver/Superturbo project - OM606.962 with "M" pump...under construction! (build thread here)
'99 W210.025 - gone, but not forgotten
'94 Dodge/Cummins - gone, but not forgotten
07-12-2010, 10:53 AM
#29
1981 300SD...Too much propane = bent rods. Junked
1980 240D...Body fell off. Saved drivetrain and junked
1985 300D...No.2 and N2O = 16.35@85mph. Sold
1999 E300TD...3" exhaust with banks muffler, Hx-35, 215hp tune, IP resistor box, bad crankshaft snout
2005 E320 CDI...AMG injectors, EGR removed, mapping
Vids! http://www.youtube.com/user/silverado408
Pics! http://s776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/...rformance/
gen3performance
07-12-2010, 10:53 AM #29I'm running a 140 hp jet in my 85 300d and it loves it. I've made one run at the track and it ran 16.3 at like 80 mph. The car has a maxed out stock pump and a 4 speed from a 240d. Also that 16.3 time was with no traction in first gear and i believe it was around a 2.4 60ft time. I've never had any issues with the spray except when it runs out. I run about 24 lbs of boost normally and around 30 lbs on spray. The huge advantage is from off idle rpm to about 4000 rpm. After that there's just a lack of fuel. Oh and the other big disadvantage is the 500 dollar spec clutch wont hold in 3rd and 4th gear when spraying.
1981 300SD...Too much propane = bent rods. Junked
1980 240D...Body fell off. Saved drivetrain and junked
1985 300D...No.2 and N2O = 16.35@85mph. Sold
1999 E300TD...3" exhaust with banks muffler, Hx-35, 215hp tune, IP resistor box, bad crankshaft snout
2005 E320 CDI...AMG injectors, EGR removed, mapping
Vids! http://www.youtube.com/user/silverado408
Pics! http://s776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/...rformance/
07-12-2010, 05:12 PM
#31
(07-12-2010, 10:53 AM)gen3performance The car has a maxed out stock pumpThat is WAY too much boost. You don't need any more than 18psi with a stock pump, any more than that and you're actually reducing performance.
...
I run about 24 lbs of boost normally and around 30 lbs on spray.
Not to mention that you're massively overspeeding the turbo and risking the compressor fragging.
(07-12-2010, 05:09 PM)McAdam so, does propane work on IDI engines withough toasting them?
No.
This post was last modified: 07-12-2010, 05:12 PM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
07-12-2010, 05:12 PM
#31
(07-12-2010, 10:53 AM)gen3performance The car has a maxed out stock pumpThat is WAY too much boost. You don't need any more than 18psi with a stock pump, any more than that and you're actually reducing performance.
...
I run about 24 lbs of boost normally and around 30 lbs on spray.
Not to mention that you're massively overspeeding the turbo and risking the compressor fragging.
(07-12-2010, 05:09 PM)McAdam so, does propane work on IDI engines withough toasting them?
No.
07-14-2010, 02:53 AM
#32
I'm using LPG on my om602 turbo. You cannot use a lot as it'll detonate. I have a petrol-car setup in my car (petrol cars here in europe are often converted to LPG because of the cheaper price of LPG).
The kit consists of:
a LPG tank cylinder or donought. I have the donought type that goes in the place of the spare tire.
an evaporator. This turns the LPG from its liquid state to gaseous state. This needs to be connected to engine's cooling system to warm it up as it will freeze if it isn't.
Electric valves. I have 3 valves in my car. One is in the tank. One as the LPG pipes enter the engine bay and the final one is in the evaporator.
The pipes are brass pipes wrapped in tough, flexible PVC. The pipes are designed to be bent rather than ruptured. In case of a rupture and rapid pressure decrease, there is a valve in the tank that blocks the flow of LPG.
All the 3 valves are connected to a main switch within the cabin. If the switch is turned on, the valve in the tank is open. The other 2 valves in the engine bay (and the evaporator) are turned on by a pressure switch set to about 5psi. The pressure switch get the power from the cabin switch, so if the cabin switch is turned off the pressure switch cannot power the valves.
The evaporator has 2 controls, one for the pressure of LPG (increases flow of LPG in the whole range) and a spring pressure control. This controls the flow of LPG in high engine loads. The evaporator flows LPG based on vacuum created in the AIR filter box. The more vacuum there is, the more LPG it'll flow.
All these controls are set to minimum, otherwise the engine will ping.
The power is very noticeable. With LPG turned of I feel the car, a 190D with om602 turbo, as sluggish compared to it running with LPG turned on.
So, IDI engines can benefit from LPG, but maybe not as much as DI engines. The factors can be the hot PCs as well as high compression. DI engines are generally running at 16.5 - 18.5 / 1 compression. Our engines are designed to run at 22/1 compression. LPG has a higher octane compared to petrol, but still not high enough no to detonate under the high compressions of a diesel engine.
So at low amounts, LPG works in an IDI turbo engine.
Deni
1992 Mercedes 190D 2.5 turbo 5sp manual. EGT+boost gauges. Boost controller set to ~14.5 psi. 1 1/4 turns on full load adjustment. LPG injection.
![[Image: 3803751914_8fdca63138_o.jpg]](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3543/3803751914_8fdca63138_o.jpg)
What's the point of injecting NO2 if you don't have the fuel to supplement it?
I'm using LPG on my om602 turbo. You cannot use a lot as it'll detonate. I have a petrol-car setup in my car (petrol cars here in europe are often converted to LPG because of the cheaper price of LPG).
The kit consists of:
a LPG tank cylinder or donought. I have the donought type that goes in the place of the spare tire.
an evaporator. This turns the LPG from its liquid state to gaseous state. This needs to be connected to engine's cooling system to warm it up as it will freeze if it isn't.
Electric valves. I have 3 valves in my car. One is in the tank. One as the LPG pipes enter the engine bay and the final one is in the evaporator.
The pipes are brass pipes wrapped in tough, flexible PVC. The pipes are designed to be bent rather than ruptured. In case of a rupture and rapid pressure decrease, there is a valve in the tank that blocks the flow of LPG.
All the 3 valves are connected to a main switch within the cabin. If the switch is turned on, the valve in the tank is open. The other 2 valves in the engine bay (and the evaporator) are turned on by a pressure switch set to about 5psi. The pressure switch get the power from the cabin switch, so if the cabin switch is turned off the pressure switch cannot power the valves.
The evaporator has 2 controls, one for the pressure of LPG (increases flow of LPG in the whole range) and a spring pressure control. This controls the flow of LPG in high engine loads. The evaporator flows LPG based on vacuum created in the AIR filter box. The more vacuum there is, the more LPG it'll flow.
All these controls are set to minimum, otherwise the engine will ping.
The power is very noticeable. With LPG turned of I feel the car, a 190D with om602 turbo, as sluggish compared to it running with LPG turned on.
So, IDI engines can benefit from LPG, but maybe not as much as DI engines. The factors can be the hot PCs as well as high compression. DI engines are generally running at 16.5 - 18.5 / 1 compression. Our engines are designed to run at 22/1 compression. LPG has a higher octane compared to petrol, but still not high enough no to detonate under the high compressions of a diesel engine.
So at low amounts, LPG works in an IDI turbo engine.
Deni
1992 Mercedes 190D 2.5 turbo 5sp manual. EGT+boost gauges. Boost controller set to ~14.5 psi. 1 1/4 turns on full load adjustment. LPG injection.
07-14-2010, 06:31 AM
#33
(07-14-2010, 02:53 AM)Deni What's the point of injecting NO2 if you don't have the fuel to supplement it?For the stock turbo it could help spool it up and increase performance off the line as a VNT turbo would do.
At 18psi and 4500rpm the stock T3-45 is at 60% efficiency and its choke line for an air temp of 158*c.
At 24psi its 189*C and at it's 154k RPM limit, 33% more boost for only 6% more air.
At 30psi its WAY past its safe RPM limit (around 180k) at 254*c air temperature. 25% more boost but you're actually moving 2% LESS air than you were at 24psi!
Normally, once the turbo is up to boost the nitrous would just be wasted. But since he is running the turbo in an extremely inefficient range its cooling the charge air a little and adding oxygen to make up for the greatly reduced air density.
In fact my intercooled 300D moves more air at 18psi than his non-intercooled one does at 30psi. Once my water injection is installed, I'll only need 12psi to match the flow of his 30psi!
My point being is that you need to drastically cut back on boost. Its killing your turbo, it can kill your engine if the compressor grenades, you're reducing your horsepower with unnecessary exhaust backpressure and the increased boost/airflow isn't doing anything since you're already well beyond the oxygen needed to burn all the fuel.
Quote:I'm using LPG on my om602 turbo. You cannot use a lot as it'll detonate.As was my point. The hot ball in the prechamber will ignite propane on contact at heavy loads (high combustion temperatures). I believe that you just aren't hearing the detonation anymore because of the reduced fuel quantity (combustion intensity).
Water/methanol injection is a much safer/better alternative to propane. You get the charge air cooling, cylinder cleaning and "steam engine" effects of the water plus additional fuel of the methanol. Propane and methanol both have the same autoignition temperature, however the hygroscopic methanol is combined with the water and doesn't separate into a gas until late in compression. That means what does come in contact with the hot ball will not detonate the rest of the methanol. Water/Methanol injection also has two more advantages in that it can't be pre-ignited by any hot-spots in the combustion chamber (other than the PC) and the water will scrub away the carbon that could cause hot spots in the first place.
Quote:LPG has a higher octane compared to petrol, but still not high enough no to detonate under the high compressions of a diesel engine.At idle and low loads yes, compression is a minimum of 256*c during cranking just to ignite the diesel. But once heavily loaded and with boost the compression is much hotter (around 580*c at stock boost) and enough to autoignite the propane.
A side note, I believe there is a problem with your "spec clutch". My stock 240D clutch has no problem holding all the 145hp the injection pump can produce plus the 2hp of the W/M injection.
This post was last modified: 07-15-2010, 05:39 AM by ForcedInduction.
ForcedInduction
07-14-2010, 06:31 AM
#33
(07-14-2010, 02:53 AM)Deni What's the point of injecting NO2 if you don't have the fuel to supplement it?For the stock turbo it could help spool it up and increase performance off the line as a VNT turbo would do.
At 18psi and 4500rpm the stock T3-45 is at 60% efficiency and its choke line for an air temp of 158*c.
At 24psi its 189*C and at it's 154k RPM limit, 33% more boost for only 6% more air.
At 30psi its WAY past its safe RPM limit (around 180k) at 254*c air temperature. 25% more boost but you're actually moving 2% LESS air than you were at 24psi!
Normally, once the turbo is up to boost the nitrous would just be wasted. But since he is running the turbo in an extremely inefficient range its cooling the charge air a little and adding oxygen to make up for the greatly reduced air density.
In fact my intercooled 300D moves more air at 18psi than his non-intercooled one does at 30psi. Once my water injection is installed, I'll only need 12psi to match the flow of his 30psi!
My point being is that you need to drastically cut back on boost. Its killing your turbo, it can kill your engine if the compressor grenades, you're reducing your horsepower with unnecessary exhaust backpressure and the increased boost/airflow isn't doing anything since you're already well beyond the oxygen needed to burn all the fuel.
Quote:I'm using LPG on my om602 turbo. You cannot use a lot as it'll detonate.As was my point. The hot ball in the prechamber will ignite propane on contact at heavy loads (high combustion temperatures). I believe that you just aren't hearing the detonation anymore because of the reduced fuel quantity (combustion intensity).
Water/methanol injection is a much safer/better alternative to propane. You get the charge air cooling, cylinder cleaning and "steam engine" effects of the water plus additional fuel of the methanol. Propane and methanol both have the same autoignition temperature, however the hygroscopic methanol is combined with the water and doesn't separate into a gas until late in compression. That means what does come in contact with the hot ball will not detonate the rest of the methanol. Water/Methanol injection also has two more advantages in that it can't be pre-ignited by any hot-spots in the combustion chamber (other than the PC) and the water will scrub away the carbon that could cause hot spots in the first place.
Quote:LPG has a higher octane compared to petrol, but still not high enough no to detonate under the high compressions of a diesel engine.At idle and low loads yes, compression is a minimum of 256*c during cranking just to ignite the diesel. But once heavily loaded and with boost the compression is much hotter (around 580*c at stock boost) and enough to autoignite the propane.
A side note, I believe there is a problem with your "spec clutch". My stock 240D clutch has no problem holding all the 145hp the injection pump can produce plus the 2hp of the W/M injection.
07-15-2010, 04:07 AM
#34
(07-14-2010, 06:31 AM)ForcedInduction For the stock turbo it could help spool it up and increase performance off the line as a VNT turbo would do.
I didn't mention but when LPG starts getting injected at 5psi the boost rises much faster than with it turned off. This is very noticeable in 4th and 5th gear.
Quote:I believe that you just aren't hearing the detonation anymore because of the reduced fuel quantity (combustion intensity).
Maybe, but wouldn't I experience a decrease in power rather than an increase in power if I have detonation?
It's been about 3 years since I started using LPG in my car and so far it's been fine.
Quote:Water/methanol injection is a much safer/better alternative to propane. You get the charge air cooling, cylinder cleaning and "steam engine" effects of the water plus additional fuel of the methanol. Propane and methanol both have the same autoignition temperature, however the hygroscopic methanol is combined with the water and doesn't separate into a gas until late in compression. That means what does come in contact with the hot ball will not detonate the rest of the methanol. Water/Methanol injection also has two more advantages in that it can't be pre-ignited by any hot-spots in the combustion chamber (other than the PC) and the water will scrub away the carbon that could cause hot spots in the first place.
Water/methanol is not readily available in my country. If I had the means (money
) I'd install a W/I system, but I think I'm better off with an intercooler than w/i.
1992 Mercedes 190D 2.5 turbo 5sp manual. EGT+boost gauges. Boost controller set to ~14.5 psi. 1 1/4 turns on full load adjustment. LPG injection.
(07-14-2010, 06:31 AM)ForcedInduction For the stock turbo it could help spool it up and increase performance off the line as a VNT turbo would do.
I didn't mention but when LPG starts getting injected at 5psi the boost rises much faster than with it turned off. This is very noticeable in 4th and 5th gear.
Quote:I believe that you just aren't hearing the detonation anymore because of the reduced fuel quantity (combustion intensity).
Maybe, but wouldn't I experience a decrease in power rather than an increase in power if I have detonation?
It's been about 3 years since I started using LPG in my car and so far it's been fine.
Quote:Water/methanol injection is a much safer/better alternative to propane. You get the charge air cooling, cylinder cleaning and "steam engine" effects of the water plus additional fuel of the methanol. Propane and methanol both have the same autoignition temperature, however the hygroscopic methanol is combined with the water and doesn't separate into a gas until late in compression. That means what does come in contact with the hot ball will not detonate the rest of the methanol. Water/Methanol injection also has two more advantages in that it can't be pre-ignited by any hot-spots in the combustion chamber (other than the PC) and the water will scrub away the carbon that could cause hot spots in the first place.
Water/methanol is not readily available in my country. If I had the means (money
) I'd install a W/I system, but I think I'm better off with an intercooler than w/i.
1992 Mercedes 190D 2.5 turbo 5sp manual. EGT+boost gauges. Boost controller set to ~14.5 psi. 1 1/4 turns on full load adjustment. LPG injection.
07-15-2010, 05:53 AM
#35
(07-15-2010, 04:07 AM)Deni Maybe, but wouldn't I experience a decrease in power rather than an increase in power if I have detonation?Not necessarily. Its like too advanced timing, it starts burning before TDC but it has more energy released during the expansion stroke.
Quote:but I think I'm better off with an intercooler than w/i.Yes, its better to put money into an intercooler first. WI can always be added later for even more cooling and power.
ForcedInduction
07-15-2010, 05:53 AM
#35
(07-15-2010, 04:07 AM)Deni Maybe, but wouldn't I experience a decrease in power rather than an increase in power if I have detonation?Not necessarily. Its like too advanced timing, it starts burning before TDC but it has more energy released during the expansion stroke.
Quote:but I think I'm better off with an intercooler than w/i.Yes, its better to put money into an intercooler first. WI can always be added later for even more cooling and power.
07-18-2010, 02:29 PM
#36
Also, is the massive temperature drop of the N2O figured into the numbers?
Also, I agree that there is something wrong with the clutch since it doesnt hold. Possibly oil from the rear main or something.
I had a 240d with water meth before this car and had clutch issues in high gear when spraying the water...however i was also running a tall rear end gear from a 300sd and the clutch had a lot of miles on it. I believe it was like a 3.07 gear.
In addition, I had a 300sd and tried propane. I used way too much and got one run outta it. Two outta the five connecting rods bent and were rubbing on the cylinder walls.
Propane and water meth can cause detonation since they are fuels and not timed like the injection of the diesel fuel. N2O is an oxidizer so all it does is aid the combustion process. Assuming all the parts hold together, the worst thing nitrous will do is put the fire out.
This post was last modified: 07-18-2010, 02:37 PM by gen3performance.
1981 300SD...Too much propane = bent rods. Junked
1980 240D...Body fell off. Saved drivetrain and junked
1985 300D...No.2 and N2O = 16.35@85mph. Sold
1999 E300TD...3" exhaust with banks muffler, Hx-35, 215hp tune, IP resistor box, bad crankshaft snout
2005 E320 CDI...AMG injectors, EGR removed, mapping
Vids! http://www.youtube.com/user/silverado408
Pics! http://s776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/...rformance/
gen3performance
07-18-2010, 02:29 PM #36I cannot comment on the volume of air that the turbo is moving at specific boost levels since i have not done the math. However i can assure you that even at extremely high rpm there is an increase in power when i activate the N2O. I agree that the pump is not delivering any more fuel but I can only assume the N2O is burning the trace amounts of unburned fuel or possibly the combustion is happening faster. I'm not saying your math is flawed in anyway, I'm just saying there is a definite increase in engine power at all rpm. A huge increase at low rpm and a small increase at high rpm all the way up to governor speed. I'm not gonna say math is wrong being an engineering student, but i do know that alot of things dont make sense when making horsepower and torque.
Also, is the massive temperature drop of the N2O figured into the numbers?
Also, I agree that there is something wrong with the clutch since it doesnt hold. Possibly oil from the rear main or something.
I had a 240d with water meth before this car and had clutch issues in high gear when spraying the water...however i was also running a tall rear end gear from a 300sd and the clutch had a lot of miles on it. I believe it was like a 3.07 gear.
In addition, I had a 300sd and tried propane. I used way too much and got one run outta it. Two outta the five connecting rods bent and were rubbing on the cylinder walls.
Propane and water meth can cause detonation since they are fuels and not timed like the injection of the diesel fuel. N2O is an oxidizer so all it does is aid the combustion process. Assuming all the parts hold together, the worst thing nitrous will do is put the fire out.
1981 300SD...Too much propane = bent rods. Junked
1980 240D...Body fell off. Saved drivetrain and junked
1985 300D...No.2 and N2O = 16.35@85mph. Sold
1999 E300TD...3" exhaust with banks muffler, Hx-35, 215hp tune, IP resistor box, bad crankshaft snout
2005 E320 CDI...AMG injectors, EGR removed, mapping
Vids! http://www.youtube.com/user/silverado408
Pics! http://s776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/...rformance/
07-18-2010, 04:15 PM
#37
(07-18-2010, 02:29 PM)gen3performance there is an increase in power when i activate the N2O.That was explained earlier. The nitrous is cooling the air and supplementing oxygen for the hot air.
Quote:Also, is the massive temperature drop of the N2O figured into the numbers?Yes.
Quote:I had a 240d with water methHow much were you injecting and what ratio?
Quote:Propane and water meth can cause detonation since they are fuels and not timed like the injection of the diesel fuel.W/M won't unless the methanol ratio is too high.
Quote:Assuming all the parts hold together, the worst thing nitrous will do is put the fire out.Ever seen a nitrous backfire? More oxygen isn't the only thing it does.
ForcedInduction
07-18-2010, 04:15 PM
#37
(07-18-2010, 02:29 PM)gen3performance there is an increase in power when i activate the N2O.That was explained earlier. The nitrous is cooling the air and supplementing oxygen for the hot air.
Quote:Also, is the massive temperature drop of the N2O figured into the numbers?Yes.
Quote:I had a 240d with water methHow much were you injecting and what ratio?
Quote:Propane and water meth can cause detonation since they are fuels and not timed like the injection of the diesel fuel.W/M won't unless the methanol ratio is too high.
Quote:Assuming all the parts hold together, the worst thing nitrous will do is put the fire out.Ever seen a nitrous backfire? More oxygen isn't the only thing it does.
07-19-2010, 12:14 PM
#38
(07-18-2010, 04:15 PM)ForcedInduction [quote='gen3performance' pid='14750' dateline='1279481390']there is an increase in power when i activate the N2O.That was explained earlier. The nitrous is cooling the air and supplementing oxygen for the hot air.
Yes, that is how nitrous works. Regardless of how much air im moving im still making more power with the spray than without.
Quote:Also, is the massive temperature drop of the N2O figured into the numbers?Yes.
If I'm moving less air with the lower temperature factored in then why is there increase in power?
Quote:I had a 240d with water methHow much were you injecting and what ratio?
No idea. I used my windshield washer fluid pump for my W/M injection. I used blue washer fluid since it worked better than green. I just kept testing different sized jets until i had an increase in power and it didnt drown the engine.
Quote:Propane and water meth can cause detonation since they are fuels and not timed like the injection of the diesel fuel.W/M won't unless the methanol ratio is too high.
True. 0% W/M will not cause detonation. I'm simply saying W/M and propane has the capability to cause detonation. N20 cannot cause detonation.
Quote:Assuming all the parts hold together, the worst thing nitrous will do is put the fire out.Ever seen a nitrous backfire? More oxygen isn't the only thing it does.
Once again, if the parts stay together, nitrous will just put the fire out.
This post was last modified: 07-19-2010, 02:22 PM by ForcedInduction.
1981 300SD...Too much propane = bent rods. Junked
1980 240D...Body fell off. Saved drivetrain and junked
1985 300D...No.2 and N2O = 16.35@85mph. Sold
1999 E300TD...3" exhaust with banks muffler, Hx-35, 215hp tune, IP resistor box, bad crankshaft snout
2005 E320 CDI...AMG injectors, EGR removed, mapping
Vids! http://www.youtube.com/user/silverado408
Pics! http://s776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/...rformance/
gen3performance
07-19-2010, 12:14 PM #38(07-18-2010, 04:15 PM)ForcedInduction [quote='gen3performance' pid='14750' dateline='1279481390']there is an increase in power when i activate the N2O.That was explained earlier. The nitrous is cooling the air and supplementing oxygen for the hot air.
Yes, that is how nitrous works. Regardless of how much air im moving im still making more power with the spray than without.
Quote:Also, is the massive temperature drop of the N2O figured into the numbers?Yes.
If I'm moving less air with the lower temperature factored in then why is there increase in power?
Quote:I had a 240d with water methHow much were you injecting and what ratio?
No idea. I used my windshield washer fluid pump for my W/M injection. I used blue washer fluid since it worked better than green. I just kept testing different sized jets until i had an increase in power and it didnt drown the engine.
Quote:Propane and water meth can cause detonation since they are fuels and not timed like the injection of the diesel fuel.W/M won't unless the methanol ratio is too high.
True. 0% W/M will not cause detonation. I'm simply saying W/M and propane has the capability to cause detonation. N20 cannot cause detonation.
Quote:Assuming all the parts hold together, the worst thing nitrous will do is put the fire out.Ever seen a nitrous backfire? More oxygen isn't the only thing it does.
Once again, if the parts stay together, nitrous will just put the fire out.
1981 300SD...Too much propane = bent rods. Junked
1980 240D...Body fell off. Saved drivetrain and junked
1985 300D...No.2 and N2O = 16.35@85mph. Sold
1999 E300TD...3" exhaust with banks muffler, Hx-35, 215hp tune, IP resistor box, bad crankshaft snout
2005 E320 CDI...AMG injectors, EGR removed, mapping
Vids! http://www.youtube.com/user/silverado408
Pics! http://s776.photobucket.com/albums/yy42/...rformance/
07-20-2010, 01:10 PM
#39
(07-19-2010, 12:14 PM)gen3performance [Your combustion temps drop and you loose less heat to the block and cooling system and keep more energy in the combustion gasses to extract power from.
If I'm moving less air with the lower temperature factored in then why is there increase in power?
Also there is an effect on the specific heat ratio that is favorable with the N2O being present on the compression stroke and it decomposing to N2 and O2 on the power stroke.
(07-19-2010, 12:14 PM)gen3performance [Your combustion temps drop and you loose less heat to the block and cooling system and keep more energy in the combustion gasses to extract power from.
If I'm moving less air with the lower temperature factored in then why is there increase in power?
Also there is an effect on the specific heat ratio that is favorable with the N2O being present on the compression stroke and it decomposing to N2 and O2 on the power stroke.
07-20-2010, 05:16 PM
#40
(07-20-2010, 01:10 PM)ConnClark Also there is an effect on the specific heat ratio that is favorable with the N2O being present on the compression stroke and it decomposing to N2 and O2 on the power stroke.
That's interesting...
GREASY_BEAST
07-20-2010, 05:16 PM #40(07-20-2010, 01:10 PM)ConnClark Also there is an effect on the specific heat ratio that is favorable with the N2O being present on the compression stroke and it decomposing to N2 and O2 on the power stroke.
That's interesting...
09-12-2010, 05:47 PM
#41
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
Prechambers dont explode if using nitrous, also no back fire if you use it right.
OM605 600hp diesel drag car build with BMW E30 chassis
SicNick
Unregistered
09-15-2010, 01:31 AM
#42
BTW gas was regulated at 8 psi and introduced post filter pre turbo above 2PSI of boost, by a normally open boost switch.
This post was last modified: 09-15-2010, 01:32 AM by SicNick.
SicNick
09-15-2010, 01:31 AM #42I ran propane injection on one IDI ford turbo diesel in my younger days, truck ran great, was faster, got better fuel mileage, and Engine grenaded after 2,000 or so miles with the setup, Not again...
BTW gas was regulated at 8 psi and introduced post filter pre turbo above 2PSI of boost, by a normally open boost switch.
09-15-2010, 02:58 AM
#43
(09-15-2010, 01:31 AM)SicNick I ran propane injection on one IDI ford turbo diesel in my younger days, truck ran great, was faster, got better fuel mileage, and Engine grenaded after 2,000 or so miles with the setup, Not again...
BTW gas was regulated at 8 psi and introduced post filter pre turbo above 2PSI of boost, by a normally open boost switch.
The amount of gas used is very critical. As I said before, my gas setup is use for Petrol cars here in Europe. I keep mine setup to the minimum. A petrol car would even be idling with the amount of gas I'm injecting.
Fumigation has the possibility to induce a lot of fuel in a short period of time and metering it is very very difficult. If you don't have the right setup you'll grenade the engine in no time.
1992 Mercedes 190D 2.5 turbo 5sp manual. EGT+boost gauges. Boost controller set to ~14.5 psi. 1 1/4 turns on full load adjustment. LPG injection.
(09-15-2010, 01:31 AM)SicNick I ran propane injection on one IDI ford turbo diesel in my younger days, truck ran great, was faster, got better fuel mileage, and Engine grenaded after 2,000 or so miles with the setup, Not again...
BTW gas was regulated at 8 psi and introduced post filter pre turbo above 2PSI of boost, by a normally open boost switch.
The amount of gas used is very critical. As I said before, my gas setup is use for Petrol cars here in Europe. I keep mine setup to the minimum. A petrol car would even be idling with the amount of gas I'm injecting.
Fumigation has the possibility to induce a lot of fuel in a short period of time and metering it is very very difficult. If you don't have the right setup you'll grenade the engine in no time.
1992 Mercedes 190D 2.5 turbo 5sp manual. EGT+boost gauges. Boost controller set to ~14.5 psi. 1 1/4 turns on full load adjustment. LPG injection.
09-15-2010, 05:05 AM
#44
(09-15-2010, 02:58 AM)Deni Fumigation has the possibility to induce a lot of fuel in a short period of time and metering it is very very difficult.
Right. Thats why its best to build an airflow proportional system or at least something that gradually builds up flow when switched on, not just full on/off.
W/M can tolerate being full on/off because it has water to bond with the fuel and suppress detonation.
http://www.bullydogparts.com/Bully_Dog_D.../10800.htm
"The Bully Dog Propane Injection System works laterally to give an increased distribution of propane as the RPM increases."
http://www.dieselperformanceproducts.com/
"Unlike other systems that are only boost pressure activated, the system is activated, controlled and flows in proportion to the boost pressure of the engine."
ForcedInduction
09-15-2010, 05:05 AM
#44
(09-15-2010, 02:58 AM)Deni Fumigation has the possibility to induce a lot of fuel in a short period of time and metering it is very very difficult.
Right. Thats why its best to build an airflow proportional system or at least something that gradually builds up flow when switched on, not just full on/off.
W/M can tolerate being full on/off because it has water to bond with the fuel and suppress detonation.
http://www.bullydogparts.com/Bully_Dog_D.../10800.htm
"The Bully Dog Propane Injection System works laterally to give an increased distribution of propane as the RPM increases."
http://www.dieselperformanceproducts.com/
"Unlike other systems that are only boost pressure activated, the system is activated, controlled and flows in proportion to the boost pressure of the engine."
09-15-2010, 10:26 AM
#45
(09-15-2010, 05:05 AM)ForcedInduction Right. Thats why its best to build an airflow proportional system or at least something that gradually builds up flow when switched on, not just full on/off.
The pressure regulators used on petrol cars work like that. They work based on vacuum created in the intake manifold by the throttle. In my case the LPG is introduced pre-turbo (right in the air filter box and countering air flow) so the LPG is controlled by the turbo pressure, the higher the pressure, the higher the vacuum in the air box, more LPG is injected.
It does work really nice.
p.s.
some info on that bully dog is really bully shit. Like making the burn more efficient bla bla bla. People have to understand that propane is just another type of fuel.
This post was last modified: 09-15-2010, 10:28 AM by Deni.
1992 Mercedes 190D 2.5 turbo 5sp manual. EGT+boost gauges. Boost controller set to ~14.5 psi. 1 1/4 turns on full load adjustment. LPG injection.
(09-15-2010, 05:05 AM)ForcedInduction Right. Thats why its best to build an airflow proportional system or at least something that gradually builds up flow when switched on, not just full on/off.
The pressure regulators used on petrol cars work like that. They work based on vacuum created in the intake manifold by the throttle. In my case the LPG is introduced pre-turbo (right in the air filter box and countering air flow) so the LPG is controlled by the turbo pressure, the higher the pressure, the higher the vacuum in the air box, more LPG is injected.
It does work really nice.
p.s.
some info on that bully dog is really bully shit. Like making the burn more efficient bla bla bla. People have to understand that propane is just another type of fuel.
1992 Mercedes 190D 2.5 turbo 5sp manual. EGT+boost gauges. Boost controller set to ~14.5 psi. 1 1/4 turns on full load adjustment. LPG injection.
09-15-2010, 10:41 AM
#46
(09-15-2010, 10:26 AM)Deni some info on that bully dog is really bully shit. Like making the burn more efficient bla bla bla. People have to understand that propane is just another type of fuel.
You want to see some REAL bullshit look at ATS' claims.
http://www.atsdiesel.com/ats2/makegen/10...el_economy
ForcedInduction
09-15-2010, 10:41 AM
#46
(09-15-2010, 10:26 AM)Deni some info on that bully dog is really bully shit. Like making the burn more efficient bla bla bla. People have to understand that propane is just another type of fuel.
You want to see some REAL bullshit look at ATS' claims.
http://www.atsdiesel.com/ats2/makegen/10...el_economy
09-15-2010, 01:21 PM
#47
(09-15-2010, 10:41 AM)ForcedInduction You want to see some REAL bullshit look at ATS' claims.
http://www.atsdiesel.com/ats2/makegen/10...el_economy
Yes those claims are quite funny.
I find it amusing that anyone who knows the bare minimum about how engines work would call this bullcrap:
"When propane is injected into an engine, it acts as a catalyst to ignite the fuel that is already there."
Actually, LPG is mixed with air and already in the engine when diesel is injected.
"When this ignites, it essentially begins the diesel burn, and causes it to be more violent, ..."
errr you don't want that to happen in your engine.
1992 Mercedes 190D 2.5 turbo 5sp manual. EGT+boost gauges. Boost controller set to ~14.5 psi. 1 1/4 turns on full load adjustment. LPG injection.
(09-15-2010, 10:41 AM)ForcedInduction You want to see some REAL bullshit look at ATS' claims.
http://www.atsdiesel.com/ats2/makegen/10...el_economy
Yes those claims are quite funny.
I find it amusing that anyone who knows the bare minimum about how engines work would call this bullcrap:
"When propane is injected into an engine, it acts as a catalyst to ignite the fuel that is already there."
Actually, LPG is mixed with air and already in the engine when diesel is injected.
"When this ignites, it essentially begins the diesel burn, and causes it to be more violent, ..."
errr you don't want that to happen in your engine.
1992 Mercedes 190D 2.5 turbo 5sp manual. EGT+boost gauges. Boost controller set to ~14.5 psi. 1 1/4 turns on full load adjustment. LPG injection.
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